Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. Israel is leading the world in the roll out of the covid 19 vaccine. More than a million israelis have had their second dose. The Prime Minister claims the vast majority of adults will have been immunised by mid march, allowing the country to ease restrictions. My guest is Health Minister yuli edelstein. Is israel really the poster child for responsible, ethical coronavirus management . Yuli edelstein injerusalem, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Its a pleasure to have you on the show. And let us start with the very good news. Israel does appear to lead the world with the speed of the roll out of the covid i9 Vaccination Programme. Explain to me exactly where you are today and how youre doing it. Well, first of all, we have good numbers. We have about 27, 28 of our population already vaccinated. We are talking mostly about people at risk. We define them as 60 and we have about 80 already vaccinated. We, as you just mentioned already, viewi million Israeli Citizens out of 9 million in this country as fully vaccinated, meaning two doses plus one week, and i sincerely hope that it will help us with the difficult struggle against the coronavirus. The answer to this poster child comparison, i guess, is negative. We are facing the same difficulties, we are in the middle of a lockdown right now, we have surging numbers, so we still have a very long way to go. We are very proud of our Vaccination Campaign and still worried about the high numbers of newly infected and seriously ill. Yeah, well get to the reality of how the infection rate is affecting israel in just a moment, but lets stick is it true that you paid pfizer biontech, the people behind your vaccine, is it true you paid them well over the odds to procure as much vaccine as early as you did . The honest answer is, i dont have a clue. I never had a chance to have a glance of other agreements with different countries. We negotiated, we paid what we paid. And having said that, if one day, i will find out we paid probably more than, say, britain or european union, i will say that its quite logical for pfizer. I wont call them thieves because of that, god forbid, or moderna for that matter. They are looking, i guess, in an agreement with a demand for several million vaccines in a different way than an agreement with hundreds of millions of vaccines, so. Yeah. It� s quite logical to suggest. Yes, a tactful answer, but i would suggest to you that people who know how procurement has worked around the world say that you did pay a very high price for your vaccines. But not only that, it seems that israel agreed to hand over to pfizer an extraordinary amount of Health Care Data pertaining to the vaccine and how it is affecting our population. Do you think israelis are entirely happy to know that their health data is being handed over to a private corporation . Handing over private medical information about your citizens is a crime. And no one in israel ever even thought about doing anything of the kind. We are sharing the results of our really incredible Vaccination Campaign with the world at large, with pfizer, with anyone who wants to know. I dont think that there is anything secret about it. I do have to say that we have very good medical data, in terms of statistics, and as long as its not private information, as long as its something that can teach other countries, teach humanity, basically, about the results of the vaccination, i think its our obligation to share it with anyone in the world. Data, of course, is of paramount importance here, and there has been some confusion as israel has released early studies and analysis of what has happened as you rolled out the Vaccination Programme. In the early days, the indications seems to be that the level of extra protection offered to those people who receive the first dose was at around 30 a0 improved protection against a controlled group that hadnt had the vaccination. Now, thats good, but its not that good. And the whole world is trying to figure out how effective the first dose is before you get the second dose, so what is the very latest information coming from your Health Care Officials in the field . Its still not scientific, its still not clinical research. We are looking at every case. Yes, there are many people who develop antibodies after the first shot. We cant estimate exactly, in terms of percentage, what it means, but we decided, in practical terms, to strictly follow pfizer instructions to give the second shot after three weeks. We have very good response. People are turning out for the second shot and, from what we understand, as opposed to some cases of the disease after the first shot, we are not experiencing any cases of the disease after the second shot, which is wonderful news. Right, but, see, people around the world will be listening to your words very carefully, because israel is further along with its Vaccination Programme than any other country on earth and it really does matter what you are finding about the first and then the second vaccination and the impacts they have in terms of protection, because the uk government, for example, has taken a decision that because it wants to get as many people the first dose of vaccine as quickly as possible, its taken the decision to delay the administration of the second dose for up to 12 weeks. Are you suggesting that your experts, your scientists, are saying that is a mistake, as you guys are strictly sticking to the three week gap between vaccination one and two . We had a number of debates, discussions in the ministry the professionals in the ministry, the medical professionals and there were different opinions about that. But in the end, the opinion that we have, as ive said, to stick to the instructions given by pfizer prevailed and we are administering the second shot. The statistics is approximately as follows. About 70 turn out for the second shot on day 21. By day 25 after the first shot, we have about 94 of people who appear to get the second shot. We are very much satisfied with this kind of attitude. Lets get to the reality of what all this means for israelis, then. As youve indicated, your infection rates are still pretty high. I mean, between 6 10,000 israelis every day are still contracting coronavirus this in a population where more than 10 have had two doses in more than 25 have had their first dose of the vaccine. Now, this suggests to me that the Vaccination Programme, until it has rolled out and reached almost your entire population, isnt really going to be a magic bullet which allows your society to return to normal. Would you agree . Well, first of all, we have to keep in our minds a very simple fact. We are not vaccinating anyone under the age of 16. In israel, we are talking about 27 28 of our population who are under 16, and thus they cant get the vaccine. So, right now, we totally understand that the doses that weve given out, administered, are not enough to create any kind. I dont want to use still the term herd immunity, but to protect us as a society, as a country from spreading the virus, so my dream, actually, is to see a different graph. We always had the graph of newly infected, closely followed by the graph of severely ill. The moment well see that severe cases will go down, we will be able to say we managed to protect those most vulnerable, as we said, population with chronic diseases or those over 60. Then, well be able to behave differently, though i do have to say that it takes huge numbers of people vaccinated before you can really kind of go back to normal. Right, well, that is precisely my point, minister, because your Prime Minister, benjamin netanyahu, has been making all sorts of promises to the israeli people mindful, i think, that hes got an election coming up in march. He has promised the israeli nation that life will be pretty much returning to normal by the time of that election in mid to second half of march. Given the figures youve given me, given the number of people under 16 you have in your population and given the need to reach Something Like 80 immunisation rate before you can really ease up, i dont see how netanyahu can keep his promise. Well, i think the Prime Minister now understands the disease very well, he definitely understands that it cant be life the way we used to know it before covid 19. But having said that, we are thinking of creating some kind of green environment in certain places. You take, for example, something we all miss so much is theatre shows. You can allow entrance to a theatre to people who are either vaccinated or, unfortunately, already had coronavirus or with a negative pcr test, and thus you create an environment where you are able to have a theatre performance for that matter, a sports event in the future, all kinds of different events, conferences. You just try to keep it green. So, yes, vaccination brings good news. Interesting. All of that sophisticated management of people who are immune, people who are not immune, that would require a huge amount of trust in the competence of government. I wonder, given the track record of your government over the last few months, whether israelis really have that level of confidence. Im thinking about the way youve completely mismanaged, for example, International Travel and the open access through ben gurion airport. People in israel are appalled that you allowed people to travel freely from new york, for example, back in march when the pandemic was ravaging new york. That was terrible mismanagement. And it falls at your door and your Prime Ministers. Well, as i said, honestly, in the beginning, we are facing the same challenges as any other country. Yes, we made our own mistakes, too. I wont use the word to mismanage. No one ever encouraged people to travel. But, yes, when there were opportunities, when israel was green and some other countries were green, we allowed tourism. Very soon, we realised that corona is still with us and attacks in all these places, so it was a short period of time. Right now, the borders of israel are closed the way they were in march. We were actually one of the first countries in the world to close our borders, something unheard of those days. Now i understand many countries are using this policy. So, yes, mistakes sometimes are being made. We are dealing with something new. I do have to say that, after the Vaccination Campaign, there is much more trust in the Health Ministry and the government and the israeli medical system. Yeah, but theres still mixed messages. I mean, just to take one specific one the government yesterday said it was going to close ben gurion, effectively, to incoming travellers, and pretty much outgoing travellers too, till the end of january, and then your own deputy announced that wouldnt be anything like enough, and the ban on air travel would have to last much longer, for many weeks longer. So what is it . In the government protocol of yesterday, the Health Ministry, including the Health Minister, say loud and clear that it wouldnt be enough and there is a clear promise from other ministers to prolong it. The explanation for such a short period of ban on travel was that we have to learn what issues rise with this ban, to take care of them and then come and prolong the decision. I think its quite clear for everyone that the variants, the mutations we are so scared of these days, like any other country, wont disappear in six or seven days from now. So, unfortunately, this ban on travel will have to be longer. Another question of mismanagement. Why on earth have you allowed so many ultra 0rthodox communities in your country to flout the rules day after day, month after month . Even now, when youre in lockdown, youve got influential religious leaders like the chief rabbi of the lithuanian ultra 0rthodox community Chaim Kanievsky saying that kids will still go to school, that it would be absolutely wrong and sacrilegious to close religious schools and, frankly, your government doesnt appear to be willing or able to enforce the rules on many ultra 0rthodox communities. Well, i am sorry to say. Sorry to correct you, but the truth is quite the opposite. The rabbi you are talking about called on his followers to close the schools down because of the coronavirus and called on all the ultra 0rthodox population to go and get the vaccine. I dont think thats the message. Which was a very important message. I dont think thats the message that he has delivered on several occasions to his own people. And to be honest with you, you only have to read the Israeli Press to see eyewitnesses saying that in many ultra 0rthodox communities today, there are still people going to synagogue, gathering in large groups, gathering in large groups for social interactions in a way that completely abuses the rules. And we see that in many of these communities, infection rates are still rising. What are you going to do about it . We are closely following what happens in every part of the country. Unfortunately, you could see, if you follow the Israeli Press during the last several days, there were even. Im not proud to say that, but there were even violent clashes between the Police Forces and some i stress some in the ultra 0rthodox community. By the same token, unfortunately, we had violations of the rules in different areas where the secular population lives, in the arab sector, each one with his or her own approach, and i always say that if we really want to get rid one day of the coronavirus, wed better look not at the others, we have to look in the mirror. Minister, International Law says that you in israel, as the military occupiers of millions of Palestinian People in the west bank and, in effect, still in gaza, though your armed forces are not on the ground in gaza, you have a legal obligation under the geneva conventions to ensure that they get protected from coronavirus, with the vaccine. Just as it becomes available in israel, it should be made available to those palestinians living under your occupation as well. Why do you flout that International Law . Well, we can go into long and interesting discussions, stephen, about using the word occupation in this sense, but i have to say now. We cant really. Not under International Law, we cant, because it is quite clear that you still occupy, with your military, the west bank. Its quite clear. Its very nice to talk to an expert because i heard you hesitating about the gaza strip. And i think to myself each time, what else can we do not to be called occupants in gaza when there is not a singlejew there since. 2005. That really isnt the point. That really isnt the point, given that you control all access in and out. You control the land, the sea, the air access into gaza, so, in effect, youre still the occupiers there too. And i come back to this point you might obfuscate, but it is quite clear under International Law, and a recent report from the un office for human rights absolutely emphasises this, you have an obligation, an obligation under law, to deliver the vaccine to palestinians under occupation. You are utterly failing to deliver on your obligation. Its israels vested interest to make sure that there is no surge in numbers among the palestinians, that they start rolling the Vaccination Campaign. I am very happy to learn that they managed to secure some agreements with different companies. I know they are getting something from the russians, from astrazeneca, probably from moderna, and im very glad about it. They have their own Health Ministry, and im sure that they will act accordingly. I do have to say that. Im asking you about. Im asking you about your legal and moral imperative. Im not asking you whether the palestinians can eventually, over the next six months, get access to limited supplies from russia. Im asking you whether youre prepared to meet your obligation, an obligation that 200 rabbis for human rights have recognised in a joint statement, an obligation which a leading rabbi in the uk, in the reform movement, laura janner klausner, says, is so fundamental it goes to the core of who we are asjews. This is a moral as well as legal question. And are you prepared now to say to me israel will meet that obligation . First of all, im a little bit lost because on one hand you suggest that i shouldnt listen to certain rabbis that call on their constituency not to follow the instruction. 0n the other hand. The instructions. 0n the other hand, you suggested i listen to the rabbis and do something that i guess i cant do. The difference, minister, is that one rabbi is advising you to follow the law and the other rabbi is telling you to flout the law. Im asking you whether youre interested in following the advice of the rabbi who says you must meet your international obligation. I read the letter of the rabbis. Theyre not talking about the law. Theyre talking about moral obligation. Thats exactly what im saying. Without any legal obligation, from the very first moment, we were helping the palestinians. Mind you, its not easy. Theyre not talking to us. Theyre not establishing contact. It all the time goes through third parties, something i cant understand. Minister, thats not true. Thats not true. The World Health Organization reported that the palestinians reached out to your department in early january to get vaccinations for their health workers. They asked for thousands. Apparently, 100 doses of vaccine were eventually delivered on humanitarian grounds. 100. Again, as a moral person, do you think thats satisfactory . There was not one case when the palestinian Health Minister or someone from the Health Ministry contacted my office. Not one case since ive been minister of health. And i do have to say that, having said all that, we are helping in every way we can with medical equipment, with protocols, with medici