Hello, its wednesday, its ten oclock, im Victoria Derbyshire and were live from new broadcasting house. Today, we can exlusively reveal that more than 100 different types of mesh implants are being sewn into hernia patients by nhs in england and scotland and many of them havent been properly tested. I hope that somebody can fix me, somebody can help. If i was told this is the life for me and there was nothing they could do, i dont think i want to live it. There are claims that patients are being treated like guinea pigs because certain types of mesh implants which are permanent are being used based on little or no medical evidence. There might be Something Like five rabbits. And youve taken a bit of the mesh. Youve thrown a bit of the mesh inside the rabbit and youve left it
there for five days. If there is no immune reaction, you pass the test and thats it. Nearly 300 people contacted us after our programme on hernia mesh back in 2018. Athletes who can no longer compete, parents who cant carry their children and people who were once active, now housebound, lonely, and have told us they often feel suicidal because of the pain. Weve set up a database of 100 people and done Detailed Research into how the mesh has affected them. Some of those patients are here in the studio today along with surgeons, politicians and lawyers. Get in touch if youve been affected. Plus weve been leaked footage from a promotional video from ten years ago for one type of mesh which shows how it can become rock hard inside the body. Its still being sold to the nhs. Again you can see how stiff this mesh is. This is a mesh tumour. You can see what it looks
like on the back table, how hard this mesh is. You can picture why she could feel this mesh in essentially every movement. Hi, welcome to the programme. Were live until 11 this morning. Today were talking mesh. Thank you for some of your messages. Donato on email, now my fifth repair awaiting a consultation now or looking at going private. I have never been given options other than mesh nor properly explained to me. Pam on email i am not disabled by it but it has placed restrictions on my lifestyle as i need dressings every day, which for the most part i now do myself. There must be other people like me who have this problem without suffering the extreme pain that roseana and others experience. That is true, there are many people who dont have any problems with
hernia mesh, but 10 do, who dont have any problems with hernia mesh, but10 do, it who dont have any problems with hernia mesh, but 10 do, it seems, end up in chronic pain. Alan i too was given a hernia patch when i was in my mid 50s, suffering discomfort after a period of about a year i contacted my local gp, referred to hospitalfor tests then seen a specialist who told me that i could not feel the patch, it was impossible, and that it could not be causing any pain, it was my imagination. I am now 70 and it still causes me discomfort, must still be my imagination speak thank you for those. If you are having issues, or if you are one of those people where the hernia mesh repair has been transformational, get on air, send an e mail. We are devoting the whole programme to this today, put your
phone number in the e mail and it would be easy for us to get back in touch. Use the hashtag victorialive. First, annita has the news. The governments multi Million Pound bailout of Airline Flybe has been criticised by one of its major rivals, and by environmental campaigners. Willie walsh chief executive of the company that owns British Airways called the move a blatant misuse of public funds that would see the taxpayer pick up the bill for mismanagement, while the green partys Caroline Lucas said plans for a review of air Passenger Duty on domestic flights would hamper efforts to cut carbon emissions. The mail on sunday has published its defence in the legal case brought by the duchess of sussex over its publication of a letter she wrote to her father. The newspaper says there is a legitimate Public Interest in the activities of the royal family and that the duchess couldnt have expected to letter to remain private. Meanwhile, meghan has made her first public appearance since she and prince harry announced their intention to step down as senior members
of the royal family. The Downtown Eastside centre, a womens refuge in vancouver, posted this picture on facebook of her with staff and visitors. Storm brendans caused disruption across parts of the country overnight, with strong winds bringing down trees and damaging buildings. In slough, the storm ripped the roof off this apartment block, leaving it strewn across the high street. Elsewhere, roads and rail lines were blocked, while at one tube station in west london, the roof collapsed on to the tracks. In america, an investigation is under way after a passenger plane dumped fuel over schools while making an Emergency Landing at los angeles airport. Around a0 people, most of them children, were treated for skin irritation and breathing problems. The Delta Airlines flight experienced mechanical problems shortly after take off. The fuel was released to reduce the aircrafts weight to allow it to land safely. Pre teen girls are increasingly being tricked and coerced into performing sexually over their own webcams, according to internet watchdogs. Data gathered by the internet watch foundation, which monitors online child sexual abuse, suggests that the number of girls between the ages of ii and 13 being coerced to make explicit images via the internet is growing at what they call an alarming rate. It claims that a third of all web pages featuring images of child sexual abuse now consist of self generated images, mostly by girls in a domestic setting. There are fears that ash from the australian bushfires could pollute the water supply in that state of new south wales. Several hundred thousand hectares of land have been burned around a dam which provides most of sydneys water supply. Rain is forecast and its feared this could wash debris and ash into reservoirs. Asummary of a summary of the main story so far. Back to you. Were going to devote much of the Programme Today to our latest revelations on the use of mesh to treat hernias. We have patients, surgeons and politicians here in the studio today, and it goes without saying if you are affected becasue you have a hernia mesh or think you have a hernia mesh, do get in touch. We can reveal more than 100 different types of mesh devices to treat hernias by nhs trusts england and scotland are being sewn into patients when some havent been subjected to clinical tests. Its led to the claim that patients are being treated like guinea pigs because certain types of mesh implants which are permanent are being used based on little or no medical evidence. Its nearly three years since we first revealed hundreds of women were taking legal action after experiencing complications following vaginal mesh repairs. That operation has been suspended for the majority of women while a government review takes place. Hernia mesh repairs, however, continue. Since october weve been repeatedly asking to interview the government, Health Bodies and leading surgeons about this but, again and again, weve been turned down by the governments medicines and healthca re products regulatory agency, the mhra, by the Royal College of surgeons, by nhs england and the department of health, and by the British Hernia Society. Its never too late though so if the Health Secretary or any Junior Health minsters or any of you are watching, we can talk to via facetime or skype or over the phone, just text us on 61124 or send me an email victoria bbc. Co. Uk. In the meantime, heres our reporter anna collinsons first film. A hernia mesh repair is supposed to be a simple procedure. But once the permanent device is implanted, it can be extremely dangerous to remove. This means if something goes wrong, many patients have to live with the complications, like chronic pain. I hope that someone can fix me, somebody can help me. If i was told this is the life for me, and there was nothing they can do, i dont think i want to live it. Scrubbing brush, that i just took from my sink. Experts are now warning basic Household Appliances undergo more tests than some types of mesh devices. Thats how irresponsible this is. People are putting more thought into these disposable cups than they are putting into the mesh. These vacuoles are where the mesh fibres used to be. We have been leaked shocking footage that shows mesh manufacturers are aware of the possible complications, but have kept selling it anyway, including to the nhs. And as we exclusively revealed, the nhs has purchased more than 100 different types of mesh. Experts are warning trusts
are using too many implants, with little or no medical evidence. But surgeons who use mesh insist these fears are nothing more than scaremongering, and that the majority of patients live healthy lives, complication free. Hernia repair is one of the worlds most common surgical procedures, most often in the groin. Using mesh has been surgeons preferred choice for over three decades, because its cheaper than previous methods and requires less time in hospital. It also appeared to reduce complication rates and the chances of a hernia returning. More than 20 million operations are performed globally every year. In england, its around 100,000. The majority go well. The hernia mesh industry is worth billions of pounds. But as the number of devices has rapidly increased, regulation has not. Hi, chris. Hi, anna. Hi, how are you . Good, thanks. How are you . Chris de armitt is a chemist who focuses on plastics. He has been an Expert Witness in vaginal mesh lawsuits in the us, where he lives. What happens when mesh is implanted in a human body . The first thing that happens as it gets rejected. Your body says, hey, theres a foreign part in here. Just like it would if you had a splinter, youd get an inflamation, your body tries to react to this foreign body and take care of it, and in the best case, remove it. For most, this initial reaction subsides. But for some, like david ellis, who we interviewed in 2018, the reaction continues. 0ver months or years, the mesh can weaken, it can become sharp, cutting into tissue and nerves, making the simplest of movements extremely painful. Most mesh products are made from plastic polypropylene, and part of chriss job is rigorously testing plastics
to see if they are suitable and safe to be used in household items. He was stunned when he discovered how little long term testing had been done on some mesh devices. Designing dishwashers or vacuum cleaners, or automotive parts, you go really nuts with your tests. You have Brand Reputation and the safety of your customer in mind. So to think that wasnt done in the medical case is especially shocking. Why should people be listening to you, when you talk about mesh . Two reasons. One is that ive spent my whole life in plastic materials, and im considered a world expert in it. And secondly, i have no motivation to favour one side or the other. Im speaking to you unpaid, because i think the public deserve to know the truth. This programme has been contacted by nearly 300 people who have experienced problems following a hernia mesh repair. Complications include chronic pain, infections, mesh erosion and organ perforation. 100 of those people volunteered to answer a series of questions about their experiences, and to be part of the Victoria Derbyshire programmes
hernia mesh data base. 0ur100 contributors come from across the uk. The youngest is just 12 years old. The oldest, 79. We have had some really distressing cases. Athletes who can no longer compete, parents who cant carry their children, and people who were once active, now housebound, lonely and who have told us they often feel suicidal because of the pain. Rosanna clarkins story was one of the most shocking. She had a hernia repair in 2015, but had no idea doctors had used mesh on her. She says she was told recovery would take weeks. The mum of two delayed her wedding for two years, hoping the pain would go. Instead, it got worse. When you think about that day, whats the word that springs to mind . Pain. Pain. It got to a point where i was attending hospitals and people were saying it was in my head,
that i was psychosomatic. I had discussed with my husband that i wanted to end my life. I couldnt live how i was living any longer, because nobody was listening, and i knew there was something not right. But in september 2018, rosanna watched our programme and saw a man called david ellis, speaking about his hernia mesh complications. His symptoms were similar to hers. I have so many times come close to ending it, because of the pain. After that, i started to investigate. And on the 10th of october, i got an e mail confirmation, from my Second Opinion surgeons secretary, confirming that i had the same as what david had. The show and david is why im here. And why im fighting. Rosanna is nowjobless, housebound and registered as disabled. My kids wrote a letter saying that they just want theirfun mum back, which. Sorry. Its hard. My husband wrote a support letter, stating he married a wife and became a carer. Im only 36 now. I was 33 when i had the mesh put in. I shouldnt be living the life im living. 100 people who have experienced complications took part in our data base. Chronic pain is a common complication, but 92 of them say their doctors never warned them it could be a side effect. 28 out of 100 have had suicidal thoughts, because of the complications. One of them was rosanna. When we asked how many times they have visited their gp or surgeon, many different phrases came up, but was often a overriding theme. But, despite the problems, only a quarter have been able to have their mesh removed, most have been told there are no trained removal surgeons, or that removing it could lead to further complications. The hernia mesh complication rate is much debated, but International Guidelines say it is between ten and 12 . That is one in ten patients who will experience significant chronic pain. Rosanna didnt know the complication rate. This was her reaction when we told her. That shocked me. Can you talk me through what youre thinking, what is going on in your mind . They know that one in ten people. Sorry. So they are playing the lottery with our lives. Its a risk they are willing to take. Thank you for your messages. Charlie says it is heartbreaking to have a boyfriend reduced to tears on a daily basis because of the chronic pain hes been in for two years, doctors dont care and he has to leave his trade as a mechanic
because he cant work any more. He is 29. This viewer says i have had several hernia repairs and always had pain in that area ever since then, but nobody seems to listen. I was told there will always be some discomfort, but not like this. This text says i had mesh in my pelvis for a hernia when i was 25 and it never caused me any issue. 0ne for a hernia when i was 25 and it never caused me any issue. One more for now, somebody that does not leave their name, my dad died after the mesh turned septic, and was breaking down in his stomach. He went in for breaking down in his stomach. He went inforan breaking down in his stomach. He went in for an operation to try to fix it, and he didnt come back. These are really shocking. Thank you for getting in touch this morning. Right here in he studio we have a group of people who have all either had hernia mesh fitted or have had a loved one whove experienced it. That includes barbara tait, whose husband was fitted with it and who believes it contributed to his death, jacqueline grimlsey who had mesh implanted after a hysterectomy, and harry nicola
who, after having it fitted, struggled to walk ever since. We also have colin elton a surgeon who uses mesh in some of the procedures he carries out. We will talk to colin, joining us from his hospital, at some point in the next 30 minutes or so. And david ellis who joins us from home, david had hernia mesh put in, in 2014 hes still living with crippling pain now. He was in annas film. Colin you are with us, despite your busy schedule, you are joining colin you are with us, despite your busy schedule, you arejoining us, despite your busy schedule as a surgeon. Also with us are labour mp sharon hodgson, eloise power a barrister who specialises in cases involving defective Medical Equipment and retired surgeon peterjones, who used to an alternative to mesh. Im going to start with you in the studio, if i may, first of all. I would like you to react to our
exclusive findings, there are more than 100 different types of mesh being used by the nhs in england and scotland, being sewn into patients with a hernia, with little or no medical evidence. How do you react . I think its disgusting. I have seen what it can do. I lost my husband, andi what it can do. I lost my husband, and i put it down to the mesh, the infection that he got. And before he had that one done, he did have another different kind of mesh, which has body rejected and they have to take that out. And then they did the last one, and from the minute he had his operation, he ended up with an infection, and that was 18 years ago. And it never went away. And then he passed two or three years ago, when his stomach broke down with this infection, and it led to other things. How do you react, jackie, to our findings . It led to other things. How do you react, jackie, to ourfindings . You didnt know before today that 100 different types are being used, and some have literally just
different types are being used, and some have literallyjust been tested on rabbits for five days. It is shocking, i read that before, in the la st shocking, i read that before, in the last year, because i have been doing some research. As somebody in your film said, there is more development and testing goes into a household appliance than those in medical devices. We assume when we go into have a medical device installed, that some rigorous testing has gone on. We assume the hippocratic oath, of do no harm, applies. If there is no testing and it isjust put into a rabbit for five days, you are putting it in to a human for ten, 20, 30 years putting it in to a human for ten, 20,30 years or longer, some very young people have hernia mesh put m, young people have hernia mesh put in, so it could be in there for several decades. We are only now finding out what happens. Harry, how do you react . How can you, to be honest, how can you use any product if it has not been tested . That is
all i can say, to be honest. It is a serious thing. After i had my operation, i met a lot of people, i had an operation to have it removed, andl had an operation to have it removed, and i am like a different person. We can talk about that in a bit. I see a lot of people with problems. The thing is, you are going into peoples bodies, you might cut into a section of the body, you put the mesh in, but then you need to cut through that section again to take it out. So its very serious. I talk toa it out. So its very serious. I talk to a lot of people where they take it out and they still have issues, you are going into the body to many times. We need to avoid it, this is the main thing. Sharon hodgson, you area the main thing. Sharon hodgson, you are a politician, how do you react . I think its outrageous, the more i hear about it, and i heard it first on your programme, the vagina
vaginal mesh, and the more we find out about how devastating it is, i spoke about my mum, who is. Her life, she keeps saying she is waiting for it to be over, how lucky she is that she didnt have this done when she was young. She is 75 now. But she aged ten years, like that. She is really suffering now. That really brought it home to me, the experience with a loved one. And the experience with a loved one. And the numbers of people we are talking about who had been harmed is huge. The numbers of people we are talking about who had been harmed is hugelj am going to bring in colin, because i want to make the best use of our time. You have surgery to carry out today. How do you react to our findings, 100 types of mesh, with little or no medical evidence . really agree with you. Its frozen, thats a shame. It did
freeze, do start again. How do you react . I agree with you that on face value the information. That line is not good enough, im really sorry, ill apologise to our audience, we do want to talk to you, we will dial back into you. How do you respond to what we have recovered today . David . You respond to what we have recovered today . David . Its shocking. Having done the programme with yourselves in 2018, obviously i have done a lot more research myself. But even i am shocked by what you have come up with today. 100 types . And there are known problems, known issues with mesh, and yet they still continue to use
it. Its a global issue. Ive had people contact me throughout the world, since i appeared on your show, and its notjust isolated here, scotland, new zealand, australia, its everywhere. I wish people would get together and investigated, do some research, understand why we use it, but make it safe. I wonder how it felt for you, watching that report and seeing, because you told your story in 2018, you helped rosanna realise it was mesh that was ruining her life . See myself in the programme, i didnt recognise myself. All i saw was a slow, grey haired old man. That is what i have in my head. Rosanna, its a disgrace what happened with her, it really is. Such a lovely lady, lovely young family. I listened to her earlier with the footage, and i was in tea rs, with the footage, and i was in tears, andi with the footage, and i was in tears, and i am cracking up again now. I have a message from rosanna that she wanted to read to you. She says, thank you, david, this mans story saved my life, he is my saviour, my hero and i love this man dearly for the support and guidance he has given me. I 0her my life. 0h. Jeez. Its he has given me. I 0her my life. 0h. Jeez. Its difficult he has given me. I 0her my life. 0h. Jeez. Its difficult to react to that. If ive helped one person, thatis to that. If ive helped one person, that is a great thing. I have been contacting rosanna, we have been
swapping messages, and bless her, she needed help. She needed support. You know, what would the family be if she had done away with herself . It would be decimated. Its only right and proper that she and her family gets the help and support that they need. I wish to god that the medical world would sit up and ta ke the medical world would sit up and take responsibility, help people like her and me and said virtually the same thing. That the show save their lives. And hopefully we have mr elton, a surgeon who uses mesh. You may not have heard davidlast comment, that he wishes the medical Community Take responsibility for this. Why is mesh being sewn into humans, when they have only been tested, in some cases, on rabbits
for five days . Can you hear me now . First of all, i want to say thank you for inviting me onto the programme and giving me the chance to talk. So, i quite agree with your comments come on face value, and obviously i completely sympathise with all of the patients that have had chronic pain or complications, following any surgery. I agree with one of your guests that said, actually, is the hippocratic oath says, first of all, do no harm. It is one of the surgeons primary aim, to make things better, never to do any harm. It saddens anybody as a surgeon when this does occur. But i think, in context, you need to also understand about the number of hernia repairs that are done, in this country and worldwide. It is a vast number. And the vast majority
of them are done with mesh. They do go through testing, and they do go through trials and studies, and there are studies over a period of 30 years about meshes of different types and different situations. But the International Guidelines say that 10 of people with mesh will suffer chronic pain. I quite agree. So, you agree, and. So, i quite ee, so, you agree, and. So, i quite agree, and then you have to look at the alternatives. So, if we are not going to use mesh, what can we use . Lets ta ke going to use mesh, what can we use . Lets take one of the hernia repairs and talk about groin hernia is. Before we do that, if1 Million People have hernia mesh, 100,000 of them will suffer chronic pain. Do you think that is acceptable . Is a
percentage, it is very funny. But of those 10 , you can differentiate between those patients who are suffering quite severe pain, affecting their life, which is a much smaller percentage of the 10 . Chronic pain has a variety of symptoms, including altered sensation, occasional electric shocks, a bit of discomfort, to a whole range of severe pain that your patients are complaining of, where they have to give up work. That is a smaller percentage, but it has ruined their lives. Why is that a risk worth paying . Again, if we say that we are going to ban all meshes, we have to have an alternative. I quite agree with one of your earlier comments, which i tried to answer,
but i think we had very poor communication, that we should not be having 100 different meshes, and we are almost at the whim of companies who will say, yes, thats a good one, the latest one, the one we want to use, i quite agree. Weve got to be much more rigorous in the information that comes from companies, standardised, such that if we are going to use a mesh, we use the same one that is agreed on, and goes to different testing, through the institute of clinical excellence. It depends on the conditions. Surgeons need to understand which hernia repairs they need to use, which meshes and when to use them. There are many insta nces to use them. There are many instances of hernia repairs where you dont need to use a mesh, there are other alternatives which are very sensible. In some cases, you dont need to use something that is permanent. Not all surgeons are
following best practice, necessarily. I want to introduce you to jacqueline. Jacqueline, do talk to jacqueline. Jacqueline, do talk to colin elton and talk to him what difference having the hernia mesh has made. It has changed my life completely. I we nt it has changed my life completely. I went from running a very successful business, travelling around the uk, the states and europe to now being able tojust the states and europe to now being able to just work a few hours a week from home. 0ver able to just work a few hours a week from home. Over a able to just work a few hours a week from home. 0vera period able to just work a few hours a week from home. Over a period of time, ive got increasing joint pain, chronic fatigue. It is notjust about pain at the sight of the mesh, although i am getting that too and it is increasing as the mesh is ageing, i have difficulty standing, sitting, walking and even laying in bed at night is not comfortable. What i want to know is where is your crystal ball that says whether this operation is going to be successful or not . Nobody told me that there we re or not . Nobody told me that there were any risks whatsoever to this. I would absolutely categorically not have agreed to having mesh if i knew
what my life was going to be like following mesh and it isjust getting worse and worse. And there are alternative speakers, before we had mesh, surgeons were able to repair hernias quite successfully. It is not the only way, but it is causing devastating harm to patients and now im left in a situation, 12 years later, where im still being told by surgeons, i was referred just last year to a hernia consultant, who said to me, categorically, hernia mesh does not cause problems, it does not cause joint pain, it does not go brittle, it does not move, it does not release a toxin. Let mr elton respond. First of all, i completely sympathise and i am sorry to hear that you have suffered in the way that you have suffered in the way that you have suffered in the way that you have. Any foreign bodies that you have. Any foreign bodies
that enters. That enters our body, we can react against. It doesnt have to be just mesh, we can react against. It doesnt have to bejust mesh, it we can react against. It doesnt have to be just mesh, it can we can react against. It doesnt have to bejust mesh, it can be anything. There was the case of the breast prosthesis, so many prostheses that enter our body that we can react against and it is important that the surgeon does give the patient the information they need to have in order to make a decision, informed consent, about what type of surgery they want and also whether they do want a mesh or not and i have to tell you, im really sorry to hear you didnt receive that information. I will a lwa ys receive that information. I will always tell patients that there is, on average, a 10 risk of having chronic pain and i explain that in great detail. Interestingly. Can i just ask about that 10 . No one has ever followed me up, i suspect the figure is much, much higher because i know lots of other people with mesh that have had problems whose
surgeons, mesh that have had problems whose surgeons, gps, specialists, consultants, whoever they visit, are still in denial. There is no National Audit, there is no recall like there would be if this was a washing machine. Nobody is asking us what problems we are having. Im not on any database to say aye had problems. How many people out there watching this Programme Today are thinking, hold on, i have got those symptoms and i didnt put it down to mesh. It was only when i started to acquire more and more autoimmune diseases and read up on them that i started to realise it was about toxicity. Jackie, i could see you as you are listening to colin elton, you are listening to colin elton, you are listening to colin elton, you are emotional as he talked about mesh and the reasons he uses it and pointing to the fact that many millions of people have mesh repairs and they are successful, there is no particular pain. What would you like to say to him . I heard his comments
on the 10 of people that suffer complications, but only a minority suffer chronic pain. How is he measuring that . How is he getting his figures . As the lady previously said, she has not been monitored, she has not been asked and neither have i. So how is it getting that information, to quote it live on national television, i would like to know where he is getting his information from because i would like to look at it. Can i respond . Yes, please. So i quite agree with one of your earlier comments, that we probably dont know the full extent of this percentage because you are absolutely right, there will be quite a number of patients who have the occasional bit of discomfort and probably put it down to post operative pain orjust get
on with their lives, but you are not really talking about that, you are talking about the much more severe cases, which i completely understand andi cases, which i completely understand and i completely recognise the gentleman, it has not been discussed with him, he has not been audited. What im talking about is the world literature. So when we are talking about several thousands of patients who, just like in any poll or survey, are surveyed and those are the papers that, as clinicians and scientists, we report and we mention, but you are quite right, there isnt a National Audit. There should be and i quite agree, just like with any foreign object, particularly in view of the recent problems with pelvic meshes, i think we should have a National Audit which allows all patients to explain their symptoms, to. And, you know,
not just allow that to happen but that somebody is listening to them, nobody is fobbing them off because i quite agree, it is very, very easy to be fobbed off and im sorry to hear that you think you have. to be fobbed off and im sorry to hear that you think you have. I want to bring in barbara, if i may, to ask about your husband. Tell us a little bit about him. My husband had hernia repair 18 years ago and, actually, after the operation, he developed this mesh infection, a tiny little pinprick that used to leak liquid out and the doctors werent concerned leak liquid out and the doctors we rent concerned with leak liquid out and the doctors werent concerned with it, theyjust left it. Then, over the years, every now and then, it would break down and he would have to get antibiotics, his skin would break down and then it would heal up, up until about three years ago. His
stomach started breaking down then. But it wasnt healing, this little pinprick hole was getting bigger and bigger. It was effectively an open wound in his stomach. At one point, he had two stoma bags on to catch all the poison and the blood and everything that was coming out. When we did go to see the doctors at the hospital, they just sent we did go to see the doctors at the hospital, theyjust sent us to the stoma nurses to get more stoma bags, which, to me, it needed cleaning out, antibiotics and then eventually his health, because the infection on his health, because the infection on his body, he lost over five stone in weight, it affected his walking, because the hernia repair he had, it ru ptu red because the hernia repair he had, it ruptured again, so he still had the hernia and they were quite heavy, and then it went on like this, we kept going to the hospital and
obviously the blood vessels around, he was losing blood, he had to go in for blood transfusions. At one point, we had to move house because we had a hospital bed in the dining room, a commode in the kitchen, you cant live like that, so we moved to a bungalow and he was unfortunately only their six months. The day before he went into hospital, that evening, i had to call the nurses, they did eventually take him in, open him up, and he used to have nurses come every day to pack it, he had a vacuum on at one point and that started to hurt him, and he had an open wound there and it used to track down one side and when the nurses one day were cleaning him out, they said there is something in there and she was trying to pull and it was a bit difficult and she didnt like to pull but my husband
being my husband, straight in, he pulled and she had to cut and it was pa rt pulled and she had to cut and it was part of their mesh. We didnt know at that time, we thought it was a bit of gauze. Do you believe that the mesh contributed to your husbands death . 0h, absolutely. The infection, it just husbands death . 0h, absolutely. The infection, itjust ravaged his body. And how do you feel about that . feel absolutely disgusted. There was nobody there for him, even though, you know, we tried. It is as though you know, we tried. It is as though you just kept being fobbed off. You did geta you just kept being fobbed off. You did get a letterfrom the hospital. In it, it says a piece of the mesh has detached from the main body of the mesh and has made its way out, to be found by the nurse. And then it goes on to say this could have been the cause of the infection. And we can show our audience the
copy of your husbands death certificate and one of the causes was a chronic abdominal wall infection. I want to ask the people sitting here how you react to the fa ct sitting here how you react to the fact that barbara thinks mesh contributed to the death of her husbandjim contributed to the death of her husband jim at the age of 65, which is no age . Ive absolutely no doubt that it did. I think one of the big problems with mesh in the use of hernia repairs, whether it is in the groin or for incisional hernia is is there is a significant risk of infection and i think the basic treatment that we would recommend if youve got an infected mesh is that youve got an infected mesh is that you are never going to get rid of that infection until the mesh is removed. So you can get an infection ina wound removed. So you can get an infection in a wound at any time, but if youve got a foreign body in there, to eradicate the infection is very, very difficult, almost impossible. So had the mesh been removed at the earlier time when this presented, it may have been a different outcome. mean, he developed Heart Failure. I a lwa ys mean, he developed Heart Failure. I always think, he had nothing wrong with his hard but towards the end. I remember asking the hotness, can you tell me, because what has been happening with this infection, how it is ravaging his body, will have no effect on his heart . She said, i cant tell you that. So, to me, it has caused his Heart Failure as well. Janice says an email, i had an hernia measure six years ago and have been on morphine for it ever since. A6 year old, no name, iwas extremely active and had their mesh put in and since then am in agony, i ama put in and since then am in agony, i am a shadow of my former self and the only thing they is painkillers. So, this morning, we are reporting that there are 100 different types of meshes. Here is the list, i have got them on a few sheets of paper. Right here, all of the different types of meshes on three bits of paper and, of course, the number could be higher because only one third of nhs trust reply to our freedom of information request. Experts say some of these have no evidence whatsoever as to whether they are safe and there are calls for them to be banned immediately. We found the mash used to treat rosanna clarkins hernia is one of the most commonly used by the nhs. It was approved off the back of several other meshes, which go back more than a0 years. For decades, there has been a loophole in medical device regulation where, if one mesh comes on the market and is similar to another mesh device, its assumed it will be at least as safe. This is known as substantial equivalence. This graph is like
a mesh family tree. It shows just how many products can be approved off the back of others, based on the assumption the previous ones are safe and underwent suitable testing. Like rosannas mesh, all of these products link back to only a handful of old devices, like the ones circled at the top here. Theres a lot of secrecy surrounding the mesh approval process. Even doctors cant access the clinical data. But we do know rosannas mesh was probably only required to be tested on animals, like mice or rats for a short period of time. They cant speak theyre animals. Theyve no got a voice. How would they know the complications the animals are having, like chronic pain . How would they know an animal is in chronic pain . Currently, to get approval, hernia mesh implants are not always required to go through clinical human trials a concern for some who work with medical devices. There might be Something Like five rabbits and youve taken a bit of the mesh, youve thrown a bit of the mesh inside the rabbit and youve left it there for five days and if there is no immune reaction youve passed the test and thats it. All these concerns surrounding the mesh industry got us thinking. What mesh devices are being used by the nhs and how many . We should be using only two or three, where we are clear right now these have the benefits, clear benefits, and have been shown to have reductions in complications. But its far, far higher. We found nhs trusts in england and scotland have purchased more than 100 different types of mesh to treat hernias. Can you explain why more than 100 meshes is a concern for patients . There is no chance 100 can have evidence of effectiveness, not least because there just isnt 100 randomised trials in the area. Therefore, some of these have no Evidence Attached to them whatsoever, and they have
to go immediately. Not having an understanding of the different type of meshes you are using and the evidence that goes with each individual one is, in terms of the numbers you are telling, is off the scale in terms of concern. There are many mesh manufacturers. Ethicon is one of the biggest. We should be clear, rosannas mesh was made by another manufacturer. An anonymous source enters this promotional video, which had been made for doctors and was funded by ethicon. We understand the video was made around ten years ago and, in it, a surgeon criticises an older, heavyweight mesh, claiming a new lightweight mesh is better. The surgeon says this is what a heavyweight mesh looks like before it enters the body and this is what it looked like around a year after it was removed from a patient. Looking at it, you can see how broken it is. They shrink, they become more brittle. What may shock you is ethicon has carried on producing
and selling heavyweight mesh, despite knowing about the risk of these severe complications for more than ten years. What youre going to see next is a piece of heavyweight mesh that has been removed from a female hernia patient. Again, you can see how stiff this mesh is. This is a mesh tumour. You can see what it looks like like on the back table, how hard this mesh is. You can picture why she could feel this mesh in every movement. We can also reveal ethicon heavyweight mesh is still being sold to the nhs. In a statement, ethicon did not comment on the video but says it stands by the safety and performance of all the bits mesh products, which, it says can undergo rigorous testing and monitoring. It goes on to stress the importance of looking at all the clinical and Scientific Data before drawing conclusions about a products performance. The manufacturer also quoted a study, which compared lightweight and heavyweight mesh, saying no Real Advantage between the two was found and, in some cases, the heavyweight mesh was the preferred choice. Ethicon finished by saying. We have spent months trying to show our findings to leading hernia mesh surgeons and health officials. The nhs, medical advice watchdog, the mhra, the Royal College of surgeons and the British Hernia Society are just some of those who have repeatedly refused to be interviewed by us. 0ne surgeon, who uses mesh, did agree to speak to us but cancelled our interview 90 minutes before it was due to start. We were all set up and ready to go. This development will be extremely upsetting and frustrating for the hundreds of people who have shared their stories with us. They already feel abandoned by the medical community, this will be just another blow. But it also raises questions about why we are finding it so hard to find someone to sit down and go on record and defend mesh. The medical device regulator, the mhra, says there is a clinical need for mesh devices but it has recognised the system needs strengthening. New legislation is due in may. Many surgeons say mesh plays a vital role in fixing hernias but there are serious concerns alternative methods arent being taught and there is too much of a reliance on mesh. Vaginal mesh repairs are suspended for most women in england. If and when the surgery is reintroduced, the Health Watchdog nice wants specialist centres, removal experts and a National Database to be brought in. The person in charge of the governmental review into vaginal mesh has confirmed to this programme that any recommendations made will also be relevant for hernia mesh. I think there are few who are better informed on this subject. Baronesss cumberleges report is due out in march and she has asked to see our findings so she can take them into account. Medical experts hope this will lead to better treatment for hernias, a condition that one
in ten of us will have. We cant produce a system that is risk free but what we can try and do is say we have a system that understands a risk and informs you as soon as the risks outweigh the benefits. Unfortunately, thats not the case at the moment. And our actionline website is bbc. Co. Uk actionline if you need help, there are loads of organisations listed there who can do that. Anna is here with us and some people watching will be thinking why arent we hearing from the nhs this morning or others in authority who can talk about this and perhaps our coverage seems one sided. What do you say . That would seem fair and i can understand why people would potentially think that but what i would say, i have been trying with my colleague jess would say, i have been trying with my colleaguejess since october to try and get the relevant health
bodies to come on our programme, sit down in front of cameras and go to the findings, on the Programme Today. We pushed back the date of this programme for a week because of the election to give them a bit more time, but unfortunately no one was available. Im talking about the department of health, the nhs and the Royal College of surgeons. I will a quick statement from the Royal College of surgeons. They say it is the duty of surgeons to explain options and risks to patients so they can decide the best course of action. Unfortunately, they went available today. You did end up having a very last minute phone call with the director of devices for mhra, graham tunbridge, thatis devices for mhra, graham tunbridge, that is the regulator for medical devices. How did that come about . There had been a bit of toing and froing with the nhra and when we told them about the 200 plus mesh figure, there was scepticism about where we got it from so we said, fine, we will show you the list and we showed them and they agreed they
would have a phone call on monday just gone. I did offer, come on the programme, but they said no, the most they could give us was a phone call. What the director of devices thatis call. What the director of devices that is the way the Current System works is that nhra overseas notifying bodies who then look at mesh, but they arent involved in the process, which is why they were unaware of the hundred types of mesh. People will be shocked at the regulator isnt across the regulation, i said, regulator isnt across the regulation, isaid, and he acknowledged the system needs strengthening and new legislation will be coming out in may. The mhra are the only ones interested in our exclusive findings. This year, mesh is due to make big headlines because a governmental review is taking place into vagina mesh. Baroness Campbell Lodge has been travelling up Campbell Lodge has been travelling up and down the country to speak to victims, she wasnt able to come onto the programme because she is
finalising the report but she said anything that applies to vagina mesh will also apply to hernia mesh and she would like to see our findings. For the last few minutes of the programme, i wanted to bring in eloise power. She specialises in cases involving defective Medical Equipment. Peterjones is a retired surgeon equipment. Peterjones is a retired surgeon who used alternatives to mesh and sharon hodgson, labour mp, whose mum has had a really bad problems with vagina mesh. What can patients do who feel they have been harmed by mesh . Good morning. First of all, these cases involve real human tragedies. As we have heard from everybody and they show this morning, patients who have been harmed should seek advice from a reputable solicitor specialising in criminal negligence. Where they get very far . It is easier to win
clinical negligence cases and there are several reasons for that. First of all, in Product Liability cases, the dice are stacked against claimants by the need to prove defect and at the Consumer Protection act. Secondly, there are some very real access to justice issues, in that many of these cases have to be funded under group conditional fee agreements, so have to be funded under group conditionalfee agreements, so it can be hard to persuade solicitors to ta ke can be hard to persuade solicitors to take them on. And thirdly, because of the absence of compulsory insurance, there can be issues about whether manufacturers are solvent and can settle cases and that is why i think there is an overwhelming case for radical changes to the law in this country. In this country, because in america, manufacturers have paid out hundreds of millions of dollars for women harmed by vagina mesh. There are hernia cases in america pending for this year but we are unlikely to see anything similar in this country . Well, we
all very much hope the vagina mesh claimants will succeed. I represent the lead claimant in the vagina mesh litigation and lets hope for a good result, but it is very unlikely that any result in the United Kingdom will generate the kind of settlement we see in the us, simply because, in the us, durie is used in Product Liability cases and we dont have that here. I wouldnt suggest bringing that system wholesale to the uk, there are other, better ways to change the law. This message from the viewer, i had a triple hernia operation and pain ever since. I am a single dad with four kids, i cant work any more, i have been signed work any more, i have been signed work permanently. Peter, what are the alternatives to mesh . There will be people watching who will think i dont want to go down the mesh route. Colin elton was alluding to the fact that there arent, but there are. There is a fantastic natural tissue, tension free repair,
popularised and developed in toronto. But are surgeons trained in that kind of repair . No surgeon is being trained in anything other than mesh repairs. It isjust a few years ago that the professor of surgery years ago that the professor of surgery in harvard said, in a very reputable american journal, that, surgery in harvard said, in a very reputable americanjournal, that, in his opinion, there mesh for groin hernia is should be gradually phased out and the training in natural tissue repairs should be reintroduced into the training programme. Phased out . Do others of you think perhaps it should be banned . I think it should be banned. Vaginal mesh at the moment is on a pause but as far as i understand, hernia mesh is still being fitted so, hernia mesh is still being fitted so, every hernia mesh is still being fitted so, every day, more victims are being created, which is a disgrace. Ican being created, which is a disgrace. I can only say in my case, i had the operation last year and obviously when the surgeon took the mesh out, he found the mesh was attached to my
bladder, my genital femoral nerves we re bladder, my genital femoral nerves were trapped, i had screws and clips in my pelvic bone. I have no other comment, i dont agree with it at all. Let mejust comment, i dont agree with it at all. Let me just read this, it has just come in. Maria says she spat out her coffee after you spoke about the hernia mesh repair. I had it done ten years ago, i have been on painkillers the same amount of time. My painkillers the same amount of time. My life has just stopped. Painkillers the same amount of time. My life hasjust stopped. My painkillers the same amount of time. My life has just stopped. My doctors are sick of me and i truly thought i was alone. That is the sad thing, actually, there are so many cases, but it makes people who are watching who thought they were going mad feel better to know they are not alone. We have been told for years it is not the mesh. It is one of the things i have raised in parliament andl things i have raised in parliament and i was just talking to things i have raised in parliament and i wasjust talking to peter here, my mum went back and forward to the doctors is years with all of these symptoms and it wasnt until your programme and then the debate in parliament when i sat down and said, im pleased you havent had
any of this awful mesh put in with your various problems and she said, no, no, ijust had some tape putting a few years ago and we realised in that bombshell moment that that is what was causing the problems. Tape is mesh, they call it different things. She had had cameras everywhere, back and forward to gps and nobody said it could be that. Everywhere, back and forward to gps and nobody said it could be thatm is the end of the programme, im really grateful for your time, thank you so much for coming on the programme. Thank you to all of you who has got in touch. Bbc newsroom live is next. Have a good day. Good morning. We have still got some rain across the south east of england but that is clearing away and for many northern and Western Areas, the sun has come out, we havent seen this for a while. That is the scene in cornwall, lovely blue skies and you will continue to see sunshine in cornwall and really
for the rest of england and wales throughout the afternoon. The cloud under the rain clears away from the south east, still some fairly gusty winds. Gusty winds towards the north west of scotland, frequent showers, some hill snow moving in here and temperatures this afternoon around about 7 9 degrees. We keep some clear skies initially through this evening and overnight, turning a little chilly. More showers to come across scotland. Into thursday, a further spell of wet and windy weather moving in. This developing area of low pressure is going to move in and spread that rain across many Western Areas throughout thursday morning, moving eastwards. It will be accompanied by a strengthening wind, with gales around the irish sea coast, particularly the south west and temperatures on thursday 10 12 celsius. Youre watching bbc newsroom live. Its11am and these are the main stories this morning the government defends itself after rival airlines accuse it of misusing public funds for coming up with a rescue deal to save the regional carrier flybe. The government isnt in the market to bail out private companies. What we do, on a case by case business, is look to see if a business is viable. In the case of flybe, it is a viable business. The duchess of sussex makes her first public appearance since she and prince harry announced they want to step down as senior members of the royal family