Welcome. Lets start with your take on paris, and could it have been here and have its paris or new york different . John it could have been new york because it could happen anywhere. We are talking about redefining the modern terrorist plot to be lowtech, lowcost. As we see now, extraordinarily high impact. We dont need talented, sophisticated operators to walk into a crowded place with a rifle and start shooting people. On the other hand, the ability to launch that in multiple locations, in a global city like paris, a significant external planning capability. Charlie it also indicates this is a global struggle. John that is very significant. It redines what isis was two months ago to what isis is today. How does it redefine it . Isil was running an infantry and taking land in syria, to some extent in iraq. Charlie in order to create a caliphate. John in order to create the Islamic State on actual real estate. Take land, hold land, take more land. A put out calls with very slickly produced propaganda. Stuff you would stack against madison avenue every day, that had a promise of going from zero to hero, if you were some person whose life did not seem to amount to much. But what you see here is rather than kind farng this out to anybody who is listening, it appears that a group was given an assignment to take down the plane and may have penetrated Airport Security to compromises. You see a complex attack in lebanon, which is really interesting, because who is the victim of terrorism there . It seems to be in honor of hezbollah. Now you have one terrorist group attacking another. And then you have the attacks in paris, multiple attackers, multiple locations. That speaks to an organization that went from being a selfpropelled propaganda arm globally, to one that can Launch Complex external operations. Charlie the interesting thing you said in terms of how they carried it out with simple, but it was a complex operation. What do we know about their intentions today . John i think isis is focused on taking and holding land and creating the caliphate, charlie the president said that narrative is important for them to create the idea that they are creating this state. As a recruiting tool. John thats right. The name is important. They could have called a lot of things, but they called it the Islamic State. The sophisticated marketing piece, for you to go against isis, you must yet work with the Islamic State, which translates to you aret wawith islam. I think that was constructed intentionally. When you are actually at law at war with a terrorist group. There is some conservation here. But the key is, where are they going with this . They were not concerned with the outside world when they were just taking territory. Once the outside world, outraged by beheadings and kidnappings and televised murders, said are going to form a coalition, do a concentrated bombing campaign, isis decided, the outside world needs to get a little dose of fear. That is what they are trying to do here. Charlie how smart are they technologically . We hear about going dark, and apps they now use. Explain that to me. John going dark is the catchall phrase for the fact that the aperture on the intelligence communitys ability to collect terrorist groups, or for that madeleine matter, the ability of Law Enforcement to collect against criminal groups is slowly closing. In the old days, there was the cell phone that you could wiretap if you had a court order. There was email, that was held on the server by a provider, if you came with a search warrant or subpoena, it had to be turned over. Now, they are designing apps, a number of them, that are specifically designed so that you can send messages that are coded and encrypted in a way they cannot reasonably be broken, even by pros. They selfdestruct anytime that you send it. When i send it to you, i can program it that a minute after you read it, it disappears forever. That means you can show up with your subpoena to the provider and say we need we found this cell phone on the dead terrorist and one of the apps is a communication platform, we need to see what went on there. The provider can say, not only i wont turn it over, but they can say that they cannot, because i dont have it and i cant get it. Charlie do you have a position on the idea of encryption and how much encryption, and who should be allowed to have access to the encryption . John i think thats a question we have to decide as a country, which is, what do we expect in terms of privacy and what do we expect in terms of the governments ability to solve crimes, save lives, prevent terrorist attacks. I dont pretend to know the answer. I do know this. The law is having trouble keeping up with the technology. There is a law, it was invented to keep up with cell phones when it started. The idea is, there is a communications device, then the provider has to provide a way they can assist Law Enforcement with a legal court order to get information. The interesting thing is as technology has gone forward, today the provider of the cell phone says, if you want a where cap or email, give me a subpoena, but the rest of the device is not a phone. Its kind of a computer. These applications are for a computer, it is not covered under the law. The cut question for Congress Charlie and also we dont know how to get access. John right. Apple is in a very interesting place. Under ios eight, we have a lock on the phone that the owner controls, and if it is al capones iphone and you handed to us and we try to crack it open, we say we cannot because we dont have the key. What is interesting is we have a case in brooklyn involving drugs, where it is the old iphone. Apple says, we can open it, we just feel like it because it might erode the trust of customers. We are going to say no. So thats where we are. You can get into the debate about privacy and terrorism and national security, but when it comes down to, my guys are out on a kidnapping. There is a ransom drop and a child being held. I grab that guy who picks up the ransom, and he does not have the kid, but i get his phone and i fades to the burp provider, we need the phone opened. We dont know how. This is an important debate, and it is one that will not be decided by the police or the courts. It will have to be decided in congress. Charlie tell me what john miller thinks is the wise choice. John i think we have to be reasonable people. We have laws, we have search and seizure laws, constitutional protections. If entire criminal networks are going to be thriving on these devices i have a tape of a telephone call from the Manhattan Das Office of a prisoner in Rikers Island saying to his compatriots on the outside, which iphone do you have . You have to get the eight, it is good as gold, the cops cannot crack it. Charlie thats an actual tape . John yes. On the telephone. To a compatriot on the outside about illegal activity. The bad guys have figured it out. The terrorist have a good it out figured it out. The question is, how do we as a people want to resolve this . Do want the law to cover it and rely on the courts, and people under oath, or do we just want to say, look, there are some things in terms of personal papers, devices, emails, that we just expect nobody ever to be able to open, no matter what. Charlie no matter what bothers you. John no matter what bothers me depending on the scenario. But when you get down to the kidnapped child, child exploitation, the person who is planning and executing gang murders in a housing project, using these things, and you can see them using them, you can watch them communicate and say, we cant get into that even with Judicial Intervention that is a question, that people need to learn enough and now about to learn where to go. Friendly charlie, the companies are in it for the money. Frankly, charlie, the companies are in it for the money. The companies who make the applications. Charlie they dont care with the consequences are, or who benefits from it. They are in it for the money and dont care. John they dont care. If i were them i would say, it is not that we dont care. We are in the business of making devices and ensuring privacy, including from hackers. I think if you are looking from the Law Enforcement and counterterrorism side, you need to say, we need a builtin solution. These companies will look you in the eye and say, you know what they want, the spies, they want a backdoor into the system. Not asking for that. I think what everybody from the fbi director, to my boss, is we want a friend or, so that when front door, so that when a judges handed probable cause, we can find the material. The same way we go into the trunk of a drug dealers car. If you have judicial process based on proper legal procedure, they have created an entire world of information that cannot be accessed. Charlie a couple of other questions about this. We know that in paris, that these people who do this with Charlie Hebdo in this case, there were people who had contact and were known by Law Enforcement. For one reason or the other. Some kind of contact. Is there a capacity to monitor that sufficient, and can it be sufficient . John i think our capacity is sufficient to the extent that i will take it from there new york optic, which is where i sit. There have been 20 plots against new york since 9 11 that have been prevented or, that were stopped, and a couple were carried out. Four of those in the last two years on my watch. They were prevented through the intelligence work, some undercover cases involving very dedicated officers. This new wrinkle makes it more challenging. I can tell you this. The last few cases, that unfolded in june, we had information about who is being asked to do what in terms of terrorist attacks in new york. But when it came down to the communications with the players, we know how they were communicating, and what they were communicating on and we could not intercept those. It is a problem. It hampers the ability to stop it. Charlie the other question is, if they are prepared to provide these, these belts also that will distract and destroy them, do we have any reason to believe that as smart as they are about technology and the apps we have been talking about, will also not be equally smart about gaining knowledge about making much more powerful bombs . John the. Bomb making recipes are on the internet. They are in magazines. Charlie we saw that at the boston marathon. John the recipe right out of al qaedas magazine. Charlie as they spread and these people begin to be global, whether they will have access to dirty bombs and things like that that are much more powerful and taking down a city. John turley, i think they had decoded your question in the opposite direction. Charlie, i think they have decoded your question in the opposite direction. After 9 11, they challenged themselves. They challenged and sells say, how can you top that . What about the dirty bomb, the nuclear, the radio the sophistication of the operation in parish was the lack of sophistication. When you use rudimentary things, you can paralyze the city with fear and cause tremendous carnage, and you can have an extraordinary impact with almost minimal preoperational surveillance, and minimal operational cost. 9 11 cost half 1 million and a couple of years of planning. The idea of turning around a mumbai plot or Charlie Hebdo plot for a short time in little money is something that a labeled has clearly come on in the terrorist world. They are saying, keep it simple, and you will have more success. Charlie your answer seems to be, they are not going to try to build bigger bombs and weapons, they will keep it simple because you can make it happen and you are likely to succeed, and you dont get the same kind of attention, the approximate amount of attention for a smaller act, and against soft targets. John exactly. And it is to create fear. The theater, the plot line was fear. You want that to unfold on a global stage and with some regularity. That is what sows the real fear. It happened again. We are watching the dumbing down of the terrorist operation to something that can be replicated. Charlie they have captured can you tell me anything about the ninth suspect . I know you guys are keyed into the paris police and justice department. John we have two detectives on the ground in paris. We send back up when this started, because of the bombing. I want to be very careful, to let the french authorities run their investigation. The intelligence is important to us, but i dont want to speak for it or from it. Charlie can you tell me anything about the phone that they found . John no. Weve gotten a good, steady flow of information, some of it in the form of questions. Heres a piece of data, what do you have. We have done our best to fill those in. Its still at an early stage. As time goes on, the volume of information they are collecting is getting greater. Charlie what worries you the most . John i dont spend time worrying. I dont mean to be glib by saying that. I find that if we take that time and invest it in planning, what is the next tabletop operation going to look like . How do we record of paid that replicate that in a field exercise . What are we missing, what did we learn from Charlie Hebdo and the supermarket . What will we learn here . When the museum in tunisia, was attacked by a group of terrorists that we believe were connected to isis, i sent a detective and said, walk through the museum, count the bullet holes, get the videotapes. We took that back here and said, what if this happened in new york . This week, we unleashed a force of 200 specially Trained Counterterrorism officers as part of a new program. There will be another 200 joining the next month, and another hundred and something after that to build together a force of over 500 dedicated, uniformed, counterterrorism officers who will be equipped with heavy body armor, rifles, the equipment you would need to surge into a multilocation active shooter attack, as we saw in paris. He did not happen this week accidentally because harris happen, we started a year ago when we saw the shift in the paradigm. And we thought about how to best meet that. Heres the only thing i would add. What makes new york different from all other places . If you take 500 Police Officers who are Trained Counterterrorism officers, and add a flying squad, a Citywide Task force, and the Emergency Service unit, suddenly you are looking at 1500 officers will be able to meet a terrorist attack, active shooter incident, with the proper protection, proper weapons, proper training, proper tactics, in very large numbers at as many locations as you can think of. Faster is the key, charlie. It is about time on target. The difference between three gunmen going into a credit place and having 15 or 20 a crowded place and having 15 or 20 minutes to go and kill people, versus having five minutes because properly armed and protected Police Arrive in minutes. Theyre instructive is to go to engage the target, that will be the critical difference. Can it happen here . It can happen anywhere. It should be a much shorter duration. Charlie do you have powers that you need but dont have . John i would say today and in new york city, the race a chip between the fbi, intelligence the relationship between the fbi, the intelligence community, and new york city, is as close as it has ever been. We are coming up on the 35th anniversary of the joint Terrorism Task force. Charlie finally, you have talked about these kind of events, that you need to wait and find all the facts. But do you have any sense or instant instinct that paris changes something . John i accept the premise that it is too early to come to conclusions, but its not too early to think about some things. It changes our view of isil from a Group Advertising on the internet to anybody who is willing to pick up the cause, to a group that has been able to field a number of external operations that seem to be exported from isil, and complex. That means that when they have an operation like this, they will probably look to expand that footprint. Charlie good to have you, thank you for coming. I know it is busy. John good to see you, as always. Charlie we continued this evening with coverage of the paris attack. In the last two and a half weeks, isis has shown a disturbing global reach. Kremlin officials confirmed isis is responsible for the crash of the russian jetliner in egypt. The russian president vowed to pay back. He said he would ally with france in the fight against isis. The attacks on russia, lebanon, and france have forced president obama to reassess the military strategy. He has remained resolute, saying the current approach is working. He says putting boots on the ground would be a mistake. This has shifted the discourse on u. S. President ial candidates, many of whom are looking to underline their orange Foreign Policy on a five. He would me is the editor of the new yorker magazine. They released an anthology book. It has launched a podcast called the new yorker radio hour. I am pleased to have david remnick. What kind of decade was the 50s . [laughter] david its funny, we have a frozen notion of what any decade might be. You think flower children of the 60s. It turns out, you discover something about your own magazine. You see what you are good at, and you see what took time to develop. And there are writers here that are just astonishing. Charlie elizabeth bishop, truman capote, dean gordy, and it goes on and on. David not bad. Charlie lillian ross, i wont give away her age, but she is in here with classic profiles of hemingway and john hughes. She just just john houston. She just put out a book. A real revolutionary figure for the new yorker, because they were not a lot of women around until the Second World War came around. And almost by necessity, forcing the hands of the editors to higher, got for big, women. She was one of the stalwart ones. Charlie one was the first change of editors . David harold ross was the founding editor, lasting 25 years run 1925 from 1925. And then along comes william shaw. And bob gottlieb for five or six, tina for five or six. Charlie for you, is it the perfect base for you to be . David is a thrilling place. I see my job this way. It is not just every week, we want to put out a wonderful magazine. Every day, we want