Reagan. The couple was inseparable through many triumph fant years in the political spotlight. Their marriage saw tragedy and Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell put it yesterday, in many ways the reagan love story was classic hollywood. But it was unmistakably human, too. Hands intertwined nancy and ron rose to the pinnacle of political power. Weathered cancer and personal heartbreak and braved the depths of alzheimers cold embrace always together. Joining me to discuss Nancy Reagans scomplife legacy from washington, michael duffy. He is Deputy Managing Editor of Time Magazine here in new york. Nancy gibbs is Time Magazines editor, together they are the authors of the president s club, inside the worlds most exclusive fraternity. Im pleased to have them on this program. Welcome. Talk about nancy reagan as a first lady. Well, you know, coming when she did, after betty ford who had been such a transparent, authentic figure and then Roselyne Carter who was very earnest suspect high protein here comes nancy reagan out of llywood with her gowns and friends and this was not something washington had seen in many years. I think they didnt know what to make of her. She was something of a mystery in a very different way than her husband the president was. A mystery. And i think one of the things that was most poignant about her, especially initially, was that where he was so genial and he was the teflon president and no criticism would stick to him, it almost all fell to her. And she became charlie the protector. She was his protector. But in the course of that, all of the slings and arrows came to her. And so mike deaver said if he was the teflon president she was the flypaper first lady. And at the end of the first year in office, she was one of the most unpopular first ladies in modern history. And by the end of her eight years in the white house, she had successfully reinvented herself and her image. But it was what she was willing to sacrifice in terms of her own standing in order to serve as the champion and protector and guardian of her husband was remarkable. Charlie but most of all, it was a great love story. A great love story. And she they were best friends. I mean, it was their company that each wanted the most. Colin powell told a story this morning that when she would travel to new york to see her friends, if she was away for more than a day or two, he would get a little bit off kilter. He missed her. You see it in the letters he wrote. Where he would say, when you walk out of the room, i feel lost. It was he was just extraordinary. The way that they were able to be this little unit within the most visible imaginable charlie the biggest fish bowl in the world. Yep. Charlie mike, i could har you reflect on the idea he missed her. Yeah. I think she made him feel safe. Per hour, charlie, in the white house, before and after, extended from two simple things she understand about reagan. The man no one really understood. That others didnt get. She knew that he was a man and she said this all the time, utterly without guile. And is always surprised when others werent the same way. And she also knew that no one would ever get close to him. She talked eloquently both after the presidency and after the death that there was just this barrier around him. And even she couldnt really breach that barrier. Charlie even she couldnt . Even she couldnt. But luke hannon writes about this eloquently but she understands what the barrier was built of. It was built of a father who was abusive and a childhood that was know matic. And the rejection he suffered after the divorce to jane wyman. In the late 40s and early 1950s that these things had wounded him deeply. And that he trusted very few people. And she was able, probably because of her own very rocky childhood, which had been sthee had been passed around from parent to parent and to grandparents and because she had been adopted by a father who was quite stern, a chicago physician. She understood, i think, what reagan had been through. And was able to, i think, at least get close enough to get near the wall. And that made her more intimate with him than really anyone else in his life. Charlie she had influence clearly on personnel decisions. Whether it was the president s chief of staff. She had allies. You mentioned mike was clearly her closest ally. Oh, from the earliest days of his career in california, she joined forces with people like stu spencer. Charlie oh, yeah. The legendary storied california consultant. Who whenever there was a crisis either in the Governors Office or the governors campaigns, right on through to irancontra in the late 1980s, would call in stu and say come and fix it. Be my agent. She reached out to people during her like bob strauss, the democratic fixer who to do her work. And she was the one who pushed people in. And pushed don regin out. Always having his interests at stake. As nancy pointed out, she took a lot of arrows for that. But he always was the beneficiary. Well, she said that her husband being very conflict averse when it came to the staff around him, would sort of be in denial. If something wasnt working, if someone was underperforming, that if he just looked the other way it would all take care of itself and she said that isnt a very effective way to run things. Charlie did he finally convince did she convince him that he had to speak out and acknowledge error . On irancontra . Yes. She was the one who believed that he needed follow jies. And she was a very significant force in bringing him around to that. Opinion. When he was resistant, and he resisted it for weeks, and was pushing back against all kind of republican, you know, wise men and veterans, she then brought in more people to push him. She knew that he was going to need a really firm nudge. And when don reagan was pushed out and reagan is admitting he misremembered things in front of various commissions and boards of inquiry, it really was nancy who had moved the pieces into place, that got him to make the admission that would allow his presidency to go forward. And they were able to conclude the final two years and get a lot of things done. But had that not happened and she not been there to push, it probably wouldnt have taken place. And thats were in this Amazing Campaign year where people talk about a republican brokered convention. The last time we came close to Something Like that was when reagan had challenged gerald ford in 1976. And nancy was very concerned going into that summer that reagan had stayed in too long and that he was damaging his relationship tation. And she reached out to lynn noh zigger and james baker who ran campaign get him out and lets make our escape and lets get out of here before he does more damage. So she was auth acting with his longterm goals in mind. What interested me, because they were outsiders to washington. So they arrived. Hey arrived in washington in 1981. She read initiationens member oilers from kissingers member oilers she went to school on how the city worked and what it would take to succeed there how the machinery worked. Flargs and i think was much more sensitized to that and much more intimately analytical. Charlie and found a friend in katherine graham. She did among other shings explained to her why she was the target of so much criticism. She said a lot of the people writing these stories are young women who just cant relate to you because you represent everything that theyre rebelling against. Charlie she also later became a certainly after her husbands announced that he had alzheimers she became an advocate of stem cell yes. Among other things. One of the things that people missed in the whole queen nancy era was just how interested she could be in things. And how moderate she was compared to not only reagan but some of the people around him. And was quietly pushing to soften his image even before then. So as an example, that takes you to that, nancy played a huge role in the early 1980s of pushing Ronald Reagan to do some negotiations with Mikhail Gorbachev on arms control when it wasnt exactly in vogue. In the republican party. She always had this moderating force inside the white house. So by the time she gets out and he actually very quickly disappears from public view because of alzheimers, she begins to talk in interviews. On all kinds of outlets about alzheimers. About stem cell. And she let it be known through seconds, lieutenants and other means, that she was fine with same sex marriage. So these are places where nancy Reagan Charlie she had a lot of key friends as well. She grew up in hollywood. Was not as a stranger to cultures that maybe perhaps some republicans had not experienced. And she was able to make these views known. Consistently over a long period of time. So that thats just another way in which she turns out to be more influential than people realized. Charlie what was her relationship with her children . It was very strained. Although i think in the in the end, there was some reconciliation and her daughter, patty davis, writes very poignantly about as president reagan descended into alzheimers and which was such a living hell for those who loved him. Charlie she said the most amazing important thing on that issue. She said we had so many memories. That they couldnt share. Charlie that we couldnt share. Couldnt share them anymore. And patty talks very movingly about in a way how it brought them closer together. And it was a kind of grieving before his death. As he was lost to them. But, you know, i think there was a theory, which the children have sometimes suggested, even, that they were so close. That ron and nancy were so close that it didnt really leave emotional space for anyone else. Charlie they loved each other more than they loved anything else. Uhhuh. Charlie and in terms of russia, as i remembered and correct me if im wrong she became a little bit concerned about president bush after he came to the white house because she thought that they might be doing some damage to the relationship that he, president reagan, had with gorbachev. Well, thats true. Its an interesting wrinkle in republican history. After eight years of reagan, which he had moved from a very hardline position against the evil empire to one which involved multiple agreements, not just in arms control but in other areas, they ended that eight years with reagan and gorbachev at the statue of liberty in like december of 1988. And it was really the triumph of detente. And what we called glasnost. Then president bush came into office in early 1989 and though he would eventually get to his own incredible partnership with gorbachev he spent the first seven or eight months keeping them at arms length. In fact, worse than that. Basically saying he wasnt even sure he wanted to do business. Even as they were preparing to do all kinds of business with the russians. So by then the soviet union had collapsed or was about to collapse and a lot of opportunity. But at that first eight or nine month period many people from the reagan era said youre going backward, jorming. And though he would write that course, it certainly looked that way and she was disturbed about it and she wasnt alone. But he eventually found his way toward that path. Charlie there is some great quote from billy wilder maybe, but one of the hollywood people who knew both of them, and when it was first announced that Ronald Reagan was running for president , no, no, no. Jimmy stewart for president and Ronald Reagan for best friend. Best friend. Charlie but he later said an interesting thing which was that if nancy in fact had helped him become president , and if they had married earlier, he would never become president because she would have helped him win all kinds of Academy Awards and he would never have gotten into politics. You know, she says something very interesting in 1968, when reagan was first now shiny new governor of california, and hes being talked about as a republican candidate, and about whether she would want him to run. And she remarkably understood even then about what that job does to you. And it was almost like she had some forsythe that were that ever going to happen and end up in the oval office that her job would be to help him manage his job. And its a kind of Public Service thats easy to forget. Of what it takes to take care of the person whos taking care of everyone. And in her case, part of that protectiveness came down to managing his day and making sure he got enough sleep. And how he was eating. And resting. Because she understood how he worked. And she understood the weight of that office on him. And what he could and could not bear. And when it is someone that you love, the way she loved him, to see him in that role and what it does to him, and this is even without the assassination attempt and that complete terror that that introduced, into the experience of living day to day in the white house. Charlie and the terror of losing her husband first and then the terror of having to get him well. Yeah. And she uniquely knew in the moment, just how close to death he came after the shooting. Charlie mike . I was going to say the or thing we forget about the reagans is that we sometimes think of them arriving triumphantly in washington as if they had just been touched with power. But they did run as a couple in 1968. And it was an embarrassing race. They decided to contest Richard Nixon for the nomination. And they didnt come close. And it was a messy, awkward jangley affair. And they did it in 1976 taking on gerald ford. And they nearly won that time. And no one was more surprised or hurt at the end of that race than nancy. Theres a great scene in kansas city at that convention where he was finally admitting that its over and talking to his most his closest supporters and shes in tears. She is just falling apart. Because they thought they were so close. And they did come close. So by the time they run in 198 ot third try. In 1980 the third try. We forget about the reagan saying those others were flukes or somebody elses idea or not serious though they were very serious . Andin one case nearly successful. Its also important to remember that she there was a lot of stuff written after don regan pushed out and he publishes his memoir in 1987 and 1988 and discloses the news that much of the white house schedule in the late 1980s had been determined by joan quigley, her astrologer. That was a shocking revelation at the time. And still kind of shocking. Its probably probably only mattered for the course of the year. And there were lots of times when reagan appeared on days that joan said he shouldnt but it was a measure, i think, of what nancy was talking about how fearful she had become. About his public safety. If nothing else. I think she really did worry much more than and espy all first ladies and i expect all first ladies do about her husbands safety. Charlie when she left the white house she had to go home with her husband who was living with as imers and a primary concern. How else did she live her life in los angeles when she went back . She lived very quietly. There were lunches with close friends. But any notion that she would have this glamorous postwhite house life was completely ruled out by his illness. And she really did not want to be away from him for any length of time. At all. So it was a kind of house arrest. In a sense. Of taking care of him for another 10 years. And this was the long goodbye. And it was in a sense, his very poignant letter to the country and the modeling that ey did as a couple about her steadfastness was quite powerful and moving. And she of course became very much a champion for all kinds of research into finding a cure. But there was also work to be done. Because he disappeared from the scene so quickly, faster than almost any president who wasnt killed in office, by 1994, is that the year . Hes disappeared. The work that needed to be done was to make sure that the reputation of the reagan legacy lived on. And she oversaw and okd the commissioning of all kinds of books. And the library. The library. The central focus. That created this narrative that reagan had been much more intellectually curious, which is true. Much more involved in the writing of his speeches. The writing of his radio broadcasts. And there came with the help of some people at key institutions around the country a kind of revived image of reagan as a thinker. And a philosopher. That was not an accident. And she was very much not working the controls but she wasnt far away from them, charlie. That was very successful. Very successful. That i think there are more books written about reagan than any or president except lincoln. Worth a check. But i think its really close. I also want to say in her final years, she was far more energetic than you would believe. Last year, sometime, maybe it was a year and a half ago, i cant remember. 10th anniversary of his death and that quhove 14, they had a day long sort of memorial to reagan at the library. And i had gone out to speak. And my role wasnt very big. But nancy appeared late in the day. And made sure she said hello to all of us who had participated. She gave a talk. And at his grave site. She was in a wheelchair. But she, you know, was somehow managing to hold it together. And did a great job. And i mean, at that point she was well into her mid 80s and two years ago. So it was 92. So just told me she was a far more energetic, former first lady than perhaps people understood. Charlie i want to nail that down before we leave. It is this notion that presidency is such a lonely job. And so any first lady has a significant connection to the presidency. The person that sees them first in the morning. Last at night. So far. If we have a female president , the he sees her first in the morning and last at night. But all first ladies have had important relationships. House ck to mrs. At the time woodrow wilson, his wife. But she seemed to be a little bit different. And they played different roles. Theyre supportive of their husband. They are partners of their husband. But this this person perhaps more in a different way, had more power. Yeah. She was almost an extension of her husband because she could in a way, she could translate some of the things that even the great communicator couldnt translate. And i think that upset people because everyone thought he was but riel at that hard to be intimate with and in some respects was the more human side of him. And thats thats a big burden to bear when you have to be a protector as well. Charlie and goes back to lie next to him. In place that they chose. That overlooks the pacific. Yeah. Charlie thank you for coming. Thank you. Charlie thank you, mike. You bet. Charlie we continue a series about apple asking the question, what makes apple apple . Last wee