A poll released this week showed ted cruz leading by 10 . Bernie sanders has a narrow lead of 4 over Hillary Clinton. Joining me now, Chris Matthews, host of hardball, and matt dowd. Here in new york, Matt Flegenheimer and kellyanne conway. Cruzeads a proted superpac. I begin with Chris Matthews pretty take me back to how you solve this. He moment you asked these questions. Do you think you thought about this at all before . Chris it was a question from the audience. A young woman asked about abortion rights. I asked him the question on my mind. What do we do in terms of enforcement. Woman beim, should the abortion . Ho has an he took a while to answer and he said yes there ought to be some punishment for the woman. What about the guy involved . He said no, not him. Later they retracted it. I thought he made a very big mistake. Ive never heard say punish the woman. It is always the doctor. Never the woman. Charlie what did you think when you saw that . Dowd i think i thought the same thing Chris Matthews thought. I was shocked that he answered that way. He was totally unprepared for the question. That is a foundation of this campaign he has had. He has done well but in spite of himself. Not because of himself. This is another rock in the backpack that makes them harder to get up the mountaintop. One thing i find interesting, and his position while way out of the mainstream, there is a logical consistency. If you say abortion should be beminalized and it should question isatural what chris asked. There is a logical consistency. How crazy it is, it is logically consistent. Charlie lets talk about that. You are pro life. What did you think beyond the politics and what it might mean for the campaign in wisconsin, as a prolifer . Kellyanne it was shocking for the prolife community has worked hard for decades to make sure people understand we dont look upon the woman as a perpetrator. She is a victim. Believe there are two victims. The woman involved and her unborn child. It would take chris had to ask that question four times. The woman is the victim. You are not going to criminalize her. Secondly, voters have a reasonable expectation candidates have thought about policy as deeply as they have. Many voters in the trenches care about these issues and have thought them through and want a candidate who reflects that own point of view on these issues. The reason his numbers are sliding overall, particularly among women, suburban women, it is because they see him is not willing to put in the work on these issues and they fear he cant do what the republicans want, he cannot win in november. If he cant beat Hillary Clinton, then he cant win. Flegenheimer weve seen so many explosive statements. I think he knew he made a mistake. This runs afoul of conservative doctrine. Someone told him quickly this was something he had to clean up. Charlie back to the point you made, why would he not at this stage have the kind of advice that would give him the policy substance necessary to handle these questions whether it is about nuclear arms, relationships with other nations or important personal issues in the country . Chris thats an ongoing question. Nuclear weapons against isis in the middle east has been brought up before yesterday. You wont take it off the table. What about europe . He said im not taking it off the table there either. You would have thought someone would have intervened and said we dont talk about the use of Nuclear Weapons. Even kennedy was indirect. You dont say Nuclear Weapons as if it was a weapon where there are rules of engagement. You keep it quiet. Why did you just say no comment . He said im not going to take it off the table even in europe. Why isnt he being thrown behind the scenes like Hillary Clinton, you can always tell when she wins a debate when she is loaded and prepared. She has all the answers ready and you can tell they are formulated. He is trying to do it all on the spot. He is fairly gifted as the man on the stage. He relies on that ability to answer questions on the spot. Quick on the uptake is one thing, but there are certain things you have to master before you can get on that stage. Charlie do we assume if he loses in wisconsin he cannot compile enough delegates necessary before cleveland . Dowd i think that is a safe assumption. It is hard for him to get to 1237. If he loses wisconsin he will not get to 1237. This is the problem. If donald trump doesnt make the 1237 its his own fault. If he finishes sure it is his own fault. He hasnt grown as a candidate with a base of support that is strong and has not put together a professional campaign operation. He makes decisions by the seat of his pants. When you do that you get exposed in the course of this. The reason why he doesnt have a professional organization having debate prep, he doesnt want that. If you wanted that he would have that. Here is a guy that does everything by gut and intuition. It has brought him pretty far. To get throughhe last stages he has to be the most professional candidate who is prepared. He has neither right now. Charlie what does ted cruz bring . Kellyanne he has two pathways to the nomination. He has an 85 percent of the remaining delegates. Wisconsin health because it resets the race and shows it is a twoperson race. Kasich is still in the background but it is no longer establishment versus nonestablishment. It is trump versus nontrump. The nontrump share of the electorate is larger than the trump share. It is where the Growth Opportunities lie. If cruz can go in with a significant number of delegates he is the odds on favorite to win the nominee. He is doing some things now that we cant talk. He now has more delegates in louisiana. Every state has different rules. If you have professionals working on the delegate rules, working on convention strategy, you have an infrastructure that is there to bolster human uncertainties present themselves. Today there is an article in the paper showing in South Carolina all 50 of Donald Trumps delegates may be unbound because he has violated the pledge to support the eventual nominee. Charlie is that what the meeting was about . Kellyanne it could have been. He wants to coalesce and unify the party. That is becoming difficult to do given the fact he has had the worst 72 hours of his campaign. Charlie do you think john kasich will stay in . Kellyanne he is probably going to stay in. He is here in new york. He is not in wisconsin. If john kasich doesnt want to be called a spoiler he should justify why he is in this race and so far is as you trying to give it to ted cruz or donald trump . Charlie i will ask all of you, has this become donald trump versus the future of the Republican Party . Guest that seems to be the divide. Do you want to harness the antitrust energy or do you coopt his supporters, the antiwashington fervency that has been central to his message. He has bought that line trying to make the case that the policies trump would pursue are not consistent with conservative policies ted cruz has been supportive of. Charlie and immigrants in wisconsin. What does it look like . Guest it looks like sanders. It means a longer campaign. He is getting very aggressive. He is not soft balling this at all. He is running an Aggressive Campaign against her. He is trying to win the nomination. Its a strange situation. He will turn 75 this september. This is last chance to be president. He is going for it. Hillary clinton is trying to avoid a fight with him. One side wants to fight, and clinton is trying not to fight because she wants his voters and enthusiasm. That puts him at an advantage. Charlie donald trump putting together a campaign looking at the way they are trending in a series of things in the most recent, abortion. Can donald trump looking at how he played with hispanics, young people, africanamericans put together a Winning Coalition . Guest a lot of people are struggling to see that path. Polling has suggested between the comments this week, the attacks on ted cruz his wife, his problems would come to the floor. Charlie tell me what you think this about . Kellyanne if we cant beat Hillary Clinton, she has a problem among men. Democratic party and Hillary Clintons problem with attracting men. Many of them dismiss, dislike and distrust her. She has significant disadvantages going into the fall because mr. Sanders has given her such a run unless donald trump is the nominee. Hillary clinton can get 35 of the white male vote in a twoperson rate race. Ted cruz keeps her under 50 in every single poll. That is closer to hillary. He keeps her within the usual republican margin. It wont matter if you nominate someone for republicans who is that much worse among women. It is a long way to november we are going to have weak front runners with weak favorability ratings. Charlie what will the history books say against this . Guest donald trump and ted cruz are the leading nominees starting off a huge disadvantages. Ted cruz started down on a field goal. The only candidate available that consistently beats Hillary Clinton is in third place, the only one that starts out ahead of Hillary Clinton in the course of the race. Its an amazing situation how vulnerable she is in the course of this race your Publican Party is either going to nominate donald trump or ted cruz, who is decently behind in this race. I think this is an accelerator. I think this is an accelerator to the breakdown of the established parties. The republicans are well on their way. We are well on her way to that. It is going to be hard to put that back together. The only thing keeping the democrats from going through the same process of breaking down his Hillary Clinton has her foot in the door and keeps it together in the course of this. When we look back in the years ahead we will see this year is the end result is the breakdown of the two major policies as national entities. Chris most likely conclusion of this, kasich is doing well in pennsylvania, he could win pennsylvania, but he is the alternative now. The Republican Party splits because trump is the nominee or because he is not. That is a great opening for a third candidate. The big strike on the democratic side is the party is not coming apart. It doesnt matter who hillary picks for vice president. She has formed this marriage of convenience with the president. President obama is going to campaign as hard as he ever has for his legacy. He will show up in october and you will see them campaigning together. The africanamerican vote will show up because of him. Those two together can hold the Democratic Party together while the Republican Party will be split. Guest i think he is right about bringing the full force of his campaign apparatus. He was already signaling at the time the time to wrap up was approaching, making clear that hillary was the nomination. This will be seen as a remarkable and potentially something that sends us to the separation of the parties. Charlie are we looking of the possibility they will break up somehow . This is, donald trump if he is nominated it will destroy the Republican Party . Kellyanne it is doubtful. These are growing pains. The Democratic Party has grown so far to the left it is an uncomfortable place for Hillary Clinton. The Republican Party has growing pains to figure out the populist, conservative axes that it must deal with. Historically, people will look back and say this was the election where electability was no longer the gold standard. Who can win. Who can win. For conservatives that is a huge relief. This is the year the electricity supplanted electability. Both parties underestimated the insurgent outsider candidate in Bernie Sanders and donald trump. Charlie final word . Guest my fear or my thought on this, even if Hillary Clinton wins in the course of this, she is going to get elected when a majority of the company distrusts her and dislikes are. With a split senate, a split house of representatives in the course of this. The American Public will be forced to choose between two people they both dont like and dont trust and they are going to choose Hillary Clinton in the course of this. Unless you dramatically changes the way she is likely to govern, i believe the country is going to look at this, they are so frustrated, in the aftermath of this if there is no way either Political Party states in any way as a dominant National Presence like it has been. Kellyanne inertia is the most powerful physical force in politics. We have had some friction this year. Things at rest tend to stay at rest. Voters always do the same thing. They reelect incumbents. If you are going for your second term as a president , you normally get it with few exceptions. I think it is very healthy for the body politic but at the same time i dont know the electorate cares enough to form a third party and things they have enough voice to do that. Charlie thank you matt, thank you chris. Well be right back. Thank you. Stay with us. Charlie helen mirren is here. She is an emmy, tony, and Academy Award winning actress. Dame of she became a empire. Sh how about that . A critic once wrote no other actress can let you know as fast and economically that she is playing a distinguished and important woman. She stars in eye the sky, as a an military officer leading the capture of one the most wanted terrorists in the world. Here is a look at the trailer. We have intelligence of a meeting between danford on our most wanted list. We believe they are connected to the suicide bombing in kenya. We have information they will be in this house. This is an operation to capture, not kill. Range is 22,000 feet. Your job is to be there i am the sky. I have to know if danford is inside and who is with her. This changes things. Whats happening . She has a suicide best and explosives. We have an ability to strike a target with considerable accuracy. Dozens of lives are at stake. Weapons on. Given the circumstances i think we should walk. Your putting the issue at risk because of one Collateral Damage issue. Minister . I need legal clearance to strike. I am the one responsible for releasing the weapon. There is more than what you see in this image. We win the propaganda war. If we kill one child, they do. No one was to take responsibility for pulling the trigger. We lost the visual. We need a decision right now. Charlie im pleased to have helen mirren back. Helen great to be back. Charlie you and alan rickman. You were off to a good start. Helen we never met in the movie. I finished before alan arrived. We talked on the phone in the film but we never actually i knew him very well. I did a play with alan, anthony and cleopatra. We all know each other. It is an incredible loss. I do think he would be very proud of this movie. Charlie why . Helen i think it is the kind of movie, with the kind of issues he was interested in, he was committed politically. He was very thoughtful. He would love a movie that doesnt take sides, that leaves the decision up to the viewer and says were all in this together. This is our responsibility. I think he would have appreciated that. The alan on the screen is the alan i knew in real life. As opposed to the actor who played those amazing get extraordinary characters. Here this is alan on the screen. It is a great way to say goodbye. Charlie the movie is about the morality of the war and modern warfare. Helen and all warfare. Innocents are always killed. Charlie you can do all sorts of moral questions. Helen the bombings of hiroshima, of cologne, of london and coventry. Leningrad. Endless history, the whole history of warfare on the human planet has been one of innocent people dying. Charlie i have been told by National Security officials, where was a certain people and they have said to me yes, and why didnt you kill him. They said because the family was there. Then they said depending on what the level of power of the person, they would be prepared under certain circumstances to order a hit. Because it was so important. Helen that is the situation in this film. We are not saying every single drone strike would take the shape but in a drone strike that we are showing in the movie would absolutely take the shape. Charlie because he can order all kinds of assassinations and terrorist acts. Helen more in the case of our movie. It is the suicide bombers who are going to bomb a shopping mall. Either they kill them here or if they get out, they are in the public might they cannot target them. They are going to set off a bomb and kill far more people. That is the issue, basically. Charlie do you know what decision you would make . Helen i really dont. I think few of us do. I hope it is a discussion people will have when they leave the movie. It is like a courtroom drama except the audience is the jury. We set the arguments of for the jury and they will leave the cinema and discuss it. I think it is an unanswerable question. It is a question we ask our military to make for us all the time. Charlie and the president has to make these decisions. Some have said to me interviewing lots of biographers and president s, nothing prepares you for the decisions you make in the white house. Or the kremlin in other places. Helen yes, absolutely. It is why they all look so gray. Charlie who is colonel powell . Helen the role was written for a man. Gavin astutely realized if there was a man in that role it could easily be not dismissed the thought of as a mans movie, men doing macho things in war. Making into a woman, which is legitimate, there are women commanders nowadays of that level, it opens the discussion to all of us. We are all in this together. We cant just say it is men getting on with war. It opens the moral issues up. Charlie how is she different from the characters