Demographic or social factors of people being frauded. Mr. Stumpf i do not know what the intent of these people were. To answer your question specifically, there was no racial or ethnicity difference other than the communities because we try to have people in our banks that represent the communities. We will take that off the table here. As someone who populates a district heavily populated by seniors, i am worried that wells fargo may have preyed on those that were seen as vulnerable. Mr. Stumpf because we actually first, there was no disproportionate. In fact, it was younger people, not seniors if there was any emphasis at all. Ok. To be clear, i do not think sales goals are inherently evil. Anyone who is owned a business there is a reason to incentivize. Your company forgot the most important part. Serve. He people you i am increasingly concerned that this misguided idea of success puts actual customers in the category of least concerns is perpetrated by more than just wells fargo. To the best of your knowledge was this practice of creating fake accounts exclusive to wells fargo . Mr. Stumpf again, i do not know and i only know what i know about our company. In your few seconds left, the investment reason people buy Wells Fargo Investments is a whole lot more. It is about our Broad Product model. Me any actionl has taken that would stop something from happening again . A brief answer from the witness. Mr. Stumpf we worked with the cfpb and we will continue to work for them on this issue. Any action they have taken that would stop it from happening again . The time of the gentleman has expired and the chair recognizes the member from new jersey mr. Cleaver. Mr. Cleaver thank you for being here. I know this is not one of your better days. Hopefully you understand, i have a plane to catch, i may not finish my time. Id. I get on a plane and go back i dare not go get on a plane and go back to kansas city and conduct myself in a way that and we wills fine all join hands and sing come by and sing and fix the problem. One of the reasons everybody in this place is upset, each of us represent about 840,000 people and probably every one of them is angry, especially those who loans andems getting people who were ripped off andng the crisis from 2008 2009 and so, i think many of them think that they had a preview of this. Gordon gecko, greed is good, greed is right, greed works and the movie wall street. I think that is one of the problems we have here. Warnede already been before i had my opportunity, so i will not warn you, but i do need to ask you a couple of questions and maybe just one. 2. 6 million 2. 6 william dollars in overdraft charges that incurred on late werents on late fees that thousands of consumers on fire, figuratively, and your bank had tubs of water, but the people there decided to drink it and let the people burn, including the people who had gotten fired. My question is, how far up the chain have you been able to determine that this scheme or this fraud occurred . Mr. Stumpf we know that 5300 people broke our trust and were not honest and we know that we are going to do a complete review of anybody who would have been part of this and if they were dishonest and broke our code of ethics they will be held accountable and we have returned that money with interest with an apology. Yes, i know, but i am trying to figure out how far up the chain have you determined thus far that this game went. , mostumpf first of all of our people do it right and this was just the opposite of what we train for, just the opposite of what we talked about. People come i know that is a lot of people given the size of our company and we will do a full review of that. What i am trying to find out is how far up the chain. Mr. Stumpf we are not going to impede,cheat chain the board will do a review of the company and make sure everybody is held accountable. Ok, i appreciate that now how far up the chain . Mr. Stumpf so far, the people we have found, it is range managers, Branch Managers, their managers in some cases, and a manager of a manager and that is the work we had done so far. So the manager of a manager would be what, a Vice President . Mr. Stumpf i do not know the exact title, but i think it is called an area president. Have any of those folks been fired . Mr. Stumpf yes. All the Vice President s . Mr. Stumpf i do not know this person was a Vice President. I do not know what the title was, i know it was anchor and then Branch Manager, manager of the Branch Manager i think theyre called district, and then it area manager. Far howatter how high it goes, they will be fired . Mr. Stumpf i do not want to prejudge. I understand, but no matter how far up it goes, they will be fired . Mr. Stumpf as far up as it goes it they will be held accountable, whatever that means. Everybody is beating you up. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from pennsylvania mr. Fitzpatrick. Representative thats patrick i want to follow up on vista cleavers mr. Cleavers questions. I represent a district outside of philadelphia and like most of my colleagues i have received letters from customers, constituents, former employees they have a lot of questions of their own which we have to help them try to answer. First i want to ask a foundational question and a question you have been asked many times already today, last week in the senate about when you first heard of this situation with your customer accounts. You have given us approximate dates which we appreciate, but first and foundationally if you could tell the committee and the American People when you first heard about the problem, where were you and who told you and what did they say to you and what did you do about it at the first moment . Mr. Stumpf i will answer your question and thank you for that. I have always known as i think wemericans know that have 100,000 people in this business so we knew and i knew that this had to be managed in the business. 2013 beforeter in story came out and i did not surprise me because i had heard we were seeing an acceleration of this activity in a certain marketplace and i cannot recall if my chief Legal Counsel told me or if it was in a meeting with the Business Leader at the time or compliance and that is when i first knew that this was becoming a bigger issue. So resources were brought in to bring Corporate Resources in, to assist the business line, and then we spent and the Corporate Group called core spent time working on that issue and we saw the issue come down it was not until 2015 and we should have learned earlier. You are not answering the question. When you first heard, where were you and who told you and what did you do about it when you first heard . Mr. Stumpf i got i do not remember where i was sitting or what i was doing, but i recall hearing it at some time in the summer, fall timeframe of 2013. There have been so many people who have been hurt by what we know right now, not just your customers you are going to lose many customers and never get them back. There have been lower level and midlevel employees who the been injured. You mentioned early in your testimony 268,000 people went to work today to do the right thing and for the most part we all believe that. He also mentioned there were some 5000 employees who lost their positions. As employers, we are responsible when you bring somebody young into an organization, perhaps right out of high school or college with a you have a special responsibility to train them and make sure they are being trained in the ways of ethics and banking. How many of those lowerlevel employees who were part of the 5500 who lost their jobs . Mr. Stumpf i do not have exact numbers, but i believe about 7 or so would have been at the teller population and the remainder, the other 93 were someplace and as i understand they were banker, senior banker, Branch Manager, and so forth and incidentally we do give two weeks of training for all of our team members before they go out because you are right, we have a special sponsor ability to help them understand our culture and they sign a code of ethics. They are being told in employee trainings about the socalled goals . Mr. Stumpf they are told about all the responsibilities of have doneincluding, i town halls every quarter, did one in philadelphia couple of months ago and i have been talking and every one of those i talk about doing the right thing and putting customers first. There have been reports from multiple whistleblowers from the provided they information of command and were ignored and as a matter of fact to some of them were fired. Are you familiar with those cases . Mr. Stumpf i have heard about those and those are regrettable. We have a nonretaliation policy for whistleblowers. Fired as a whistleblower is a serious matter. Mr. Stumpf we take it very seriously and we have a nonretaliation policy. The chair recommends the gentlelady from wisconsin mrs. Moore. I haventative moore learned so much here and i know when you go to wells fargo the wells fargo website there your picture is, john g. Stumpf, the vision and values of wells fargo and it features you. You say you started with wells fargo in 1981. Mr. Stumpf 1982. Oore ok, myve m math is not that good. You were trained and you knew what the culture of this norwest company, i guess there was a merger of wells fargo and norwest and so, did you receive training or do you know if the employees received training on this going for Great Program that we have talked about here today where most of your customers only had five accounts in your bank and that there was an effort to get at least 8 accounts for customers, was that part of the culture . Mr. Stumpf that was an aspirational goal and most of our customers totals had 14. And so, as your predecessor noted, there is this abundant Growth Potential in the wells that onetomer base and of the sayings around the place. As we expect what we expect so, whether constant monitorings to see if people were meeting these goals . We expect what we expect, what does that statement mean . Mr. Stumpf it means we expect our people to live according to our values and their ethics. I am sotative moore happy, i will congratulate you the swamp of these 5500 lowerlevel employees because they almost brought down one of the greatest companies that our country has ever known. I remember wells fargos old wagon wheel days so i am happy you got rid of those employees and i am sorry for your loss of 41 million and the loss of the investors whose stock dropped, but i am wondering what the relief is for one of my constituents. I have her letter and i want to enter it in the record. Without objection. She started making 13 an hour and ended at 50 an hour and she was one of the whistleblowers who complained to the manager and then they changed her performance numbers and pushed her out and so she is a person that kind of lost her job and other stuff that happens to you when you make 13 an hour 15 dollars an hour, sorry and you are pushed out by people you you do not want do not fit in with the expectations and the culture. What is the remedy. Is there a fund for these employees, the good ones, not 12 an hour or 13 an hour employees. What is the remedy for my constituent at wells fargo . Mr. Stumpf we want to know about every one and we really view review the files for anyone who had anything to do. Representative moore she has a case with the council of equal rights division, how come she couldnt just come to you . The people she talked to fire her. Mr. Stumpf we have Corporate Resources and if you give me that name. Representative moore i was very disturbed to hear that the numbers were not large enough to raise to the money of being material for security purposes. I do not understand that. Would you come as an investor, invest in the bernie made off type would you make this kind of investment yourself . Mr. Stumpf this is a quality ,ompany who made some mistakes but our investment thesis is all about our capital and our growth. Representative moore you have stated previously that you think the dodd frank over regulates. Mr. Stumpf i never said that. I do not recall saying that. Stutzman mr. Stones mr. I got my first loan for a motorcycle when i was 20 years old and i have been a happy customer for over 20 years and i have been frustrated with wells fargo because of the new website and i voiced that and i think part of this come i think you need to do something about it because the transparency in the website right now, i cannot find some of my accounts. I think at this point, there needs to be a time when you can give customers confidence through the website to make sure that every account can be seen because i have notices all the sudden of accounts i did not recognize because i did not see them on a daily basis. I found them after i called wells fargo and talk to them. Your story you is remarkable. You came from a dairy farm in minnesota. I grew up on a dairy farm still part of our family farming operation and i am curious to know what you would do today if you had taken a different path and be a dairy farmer in minnesota and you have been trying to buy land and you are trying to buy more cows and you realized your credit score, something is wrong with it and you have not been able to get your credit score up and maybe you find out your credit was dinged because your bank was opening accounts. When accounts are open it dings your credit score, correct . Mr. Stumpf that is correct. Stutzman so 2 Million People had their score dings because people were opening their accounts mr. Stumpf we have contacted 20,000 of them and less than 25 saying i do not want to minimize the numbers, even one is too many, but mayan traction is to make it right for everyone of those customers. Mr. Stutzman when mr. Cleaver was asking you what is the highest level officer at wells fargo to be fired and you did not really know, you kind of said area manager. Mr. Stumpf excuse me. I know the functional title, i do not know if that person is a Vice President , senior Vice President. I just do not know that. I do know that it is a Branch Managers manager manager and were not done with the investigation. Broke foran but this the public within the last month and you apparently knew about it 2012, 2013 . Mr. Stumpf we knew that not everyone does it right and it was sometime in 2015 when we did our pwc study of the results came in early in 2016. Mr. Stutzman but you are the ceo. Is stand up to do in front of the company and say, this is going to stop and it should be stopping. I am curious to hear from employees who were fired with their experience was and i hope we do a hearing with some of those. Wells fargo is a huge company. Is it too big to manage . Mr. Stumpf it is not. This was a focus problem and we do a lot of areas really well like model risk and market risk and capital liquidity. We know we have work to do in operational and Compliance Risk and we should have invested more. Today i told our folks know stone unturned or no dollar unspent come we are getting rid of sales goals. Mr. Stutzman i know you said that today, but where was the outrage from you when you first heard about it . There is outrage on this committee, but i do not sense the same outrage from you when tolstedteing walking away with millions of dollars. The American People and your customers will be upset when they see what is happening here. Will you get the number to this pb regulatorscs that were embedded at Wells Fargo Bank . Mr. Stumpf i will talk to my team and we will be as cooperative as we can. I do not know if that is covered under confidential supervising. Mr. Stutzman i think not only have you and wells fargo let the customers down but so has cspb and you have let and you both have let the people down. I ask for consent to enter into the record a report entitled banking on the hard sell low widget wages and aggressive sales put customers and workers at risk and i would ed ilike to enter an op wrote the other day entitled john stumpfs wells fargo racket shows why bank workers need a union and i would also like to note for my colleagues a junesive held briefing were left listening we hear about today, on june 10 we had workers come in and testify to the very thing that weve been talking about today which is the highpressure sales techniques. If you are a worker at wells fargo and you are expected to seek out sales goals, you mentioned that. Mr. Stumpf we had sales goals. Yes or no because i do not have a lot of time. Im am not trying to be unkind but i will not let you lays waste my time. Yes or no. Mr. Stumpf yes we have sales goals. Du have something called as prospecting calls that were expected for bankers to make . Mr. Stumpf i do not know that level of detail. Do you deny there were prospecting calls . Mr. Stumpf i do not know that level of detail. Are you aware each banker was expected to make at least 8 100 prospecting calls a day . Are you aware of that . Mr. Stumpf that is the first time i have ever heard that. Chairman, are you aware that there were weekly meetings held by morning huddles to talk about these sales goals . Mr. Stumpf i realize you have to answer yes or no, sir. Mr. Stumpf it is yes with an explanation. Morning huddles, yes or no, did they occur . Mr. Stumpf yes with the next one nation. Asked here customers questions asked, how many creditors were they going to given goals . There mr. Stumpf i do not know that every branch held the morning huddle. I know the team works together. For their publishings of charts on who sold how many products in your bank . Mr. Stumpf that is a level i do not know. Were they publishing charts on who did not make their sales goals . Workers say that there were. If a worker did not reach their ones goals, where they put initial written warnings . Mr. Stumpf i do not know the process. Meet workers did not second sales goals again, were they given a second warning . Mr. Stumpf i do not know the level of detail. If they did not reach second goals, were they written up and admonished for not making sales goals . You are the ceo and you do not know this . And were they given Performance Improvement plans if they did not make sales goals . How did you generate lists for workers to have to make calls. Mr. Stumpf i do not even know if there were lists. You are the ceo and you do not know if they were prospecting list that each worker was made to make cold calls on. Mr. Stumpf i do no