dictatorship model and thus to personal power. >> absolutely. i can repeat it again. so free prosperous democratic ukraine is a threat to putin because russian citizens look at ukraine and wonder why they can't have free and fair elections and free press. putin must destroy. putin was never ambiguous about his goal to destroy ukraine. you have to listen to russian propaganda. 24/7 they keep talking about it and deny ukraine's right to exist. >> what do you believe nato ought to be doing? you said nato ought to be at the table, it shouldn't be just the u.s. and russia and ukraine, but nato needs to be more involved. >> i think it's about, you know, americans talking to ukraine and nato allies and to formulate a proper defense strategy because russia is an invader.