Getaway driver her husband might not be alived today. Randi kaye just confirmed that allegation. Joins us now with the latest. What have you learned . We are getting new information from a source with direct knowledge of this investigation. And this source telling me that escapees richard matt and david sweat did indeed have a plan to kill Lyle Mitchell. As you know, he is the husband of Joyce Mitchell the prison seamstress now accused in helping these two men get away from that prison. Whats unclear is why they intended to kill Lyle Mitchell when they intended to kill Lyle Mitchell and how much Joyce Mitchell actually knew about that plan. We know she was aware of it. But the question is did she know all the details, that there was a plan in place to kill her husband. The same source also telling me that Joyce Mitchell was having a sexual relationship not just a friendship but a sexual relationship with richard matt. He is the escapee who killed and dismembered his neighbor. Its unclear, anderson, tonight how long how long that sexual relationship was going on. But all this new information coming to us tonight as we are learning more about their stunning escape. They could practically taste freedom. But that didnt stop convicted killers david stwet and richard matt were leaving a series of snarky postit notes along their escape route for authorities to see. The only sticky ive seen is the one that says have a nice day on it. I have heard through the investigation that other notes were there. But thats the only note that ive seen. Reporter once on the outside, the plan was for the escapees to jump into Joyce Mitchells family car. She tells us they said we need a fourwheel drive veechlk inc. I believe she has a jeep. What bran or model, i dont know. So they would have been using her car. They would have used her as car as the getaway car to leave the area travel at least on this first portion about seven hours away from here. And she was planning to go with them . Up until friday afternoon or friday evening based on her statement she was ready to go. Where is where they were supposed to meet this power plant is just a few hundred yards away from the manhole the men emerged from. The power plant smokestack is visible from the toiler shop in the prison where the two men worked with mitchell that was the marker for their meeting place. The plan from there. Drive. Seven hours. She didnt know whether it was new york pennsylvania vermont, canada. Reporter why would a prison seamstress agree to help these men . A source with knowledge of the investigation says she had a relationship with both of them. And right hand matt in particular was able to charm Joyce Mitchell making her feel quote, special, all in view of her husband lyle who did maintenance in the tailor shop. Lyle is also under investigation. He has been questioned about his knowledge of the escape and whether he helped plan. Any more clarity on his role . Not at all. Reporter meanwhile the hunt for the two men continues, authorities now expandsing the search zone. Blood hounds are still picking up their scent, but its considerably weaker. So search teams are resorting to other means, using motion detectors similar to this one. They have cameras on them and they can be attached to any tree here in the woods. When the sensors pick up activity they snap a photo. Still, even with nearly 900 tips, and more than 800 Law Enforcement personnel on the lookout, no luck. Randy, this idea that she knew about the threat against her husband i guess there is two options, or at least two that i can think of. One, she was not only aware of it but she was in on it and had maybe perhaps requested it, that they try to kill her husband. Or that this was a threat by one or both of these men in order to get her to help them. Absolutely. And we dont know the answer to that yet. We certainly know the d. A. Has a lot more questions. Clearly, she was made to feel special by richard machlt she was interested in possibly going away running away with these two guys. We also know maybe she got cold feet this coming from the d. A. Because she didnt want to leave the area. She felt she did still love her husband. Maybe she was looking out for him. He might have had knowledge this as well there was a plot against him. Joyce mitchell was before a judge today. What happened in court . She was in court with her new attorney a private attorney. She appeared in the black and white prison garb. She was wearing a vest. The d. A. Referred to it as a safety vest. We are not sure if it was a bulletproof vest. We dont know whether she was officially indicted yet. She was being held on bond and may be in court in another month as the case gets kicked up to the county. More on the picture of how inmates recruit people like her. We are joined by matt logan. Also former corrections officer matt gagji, host of tear talk, a radio program, and senior legal analyst jeffrey toobin. Jeffrey, the news of this murder plot against Joyce Mitchells husband, if she knew about it, how does that complicate things for her legally . Could they bring Additional Charges against her . Her legal situation is about as dark as it can get. I mean she has one option which is somehow to help them find these two fugitives. Other than that, she really is not of any use to the authorities. And they are going to throw the book at her. They may well have an Additional Charge if shes somehow involved in a conspiracy to hurt her husband. But simply by helping the escape if it is true that she supplied the power tools, if she did this, she is in such a world of hurt from that that there is no way she can dig herself out. Anthony, her alleged relationship with both of these guys obviously thats something that correction officers are trained to watch out for, to try to, you know prevent. If she is a civilian in this environment, does that make it all the more difficult . Is it a different form of training . Well, the thing is with civilians is that they come in with they want to help. Thats their prescribed role. Its very important they do receive the training in regards of how to avoid the manipulation because it is a different environment. Its not the environment you would see out on the streets. Correctional officers are trained to obviously look for certain signs like is she too close to that inmate what kind of conversations is she having. A correctional officer would be looking for an inmate being too close to a civilian employee . Yes, but you have to realize we have a big area that we have to walk around. Within that big area it could become routine. They could have lookouts. When they are focused over here. Thel they are playing their game over here. It may start out subtle. If its not brought to your attention our perspective is different. What do we see . We see everything back to normal. Even when it comes to Chaplain Services they are allowed to interact with the inmates, but unless we are there listening to every word if we were they wouldnt be saying what they were supposedly saying. Matt the inappropriate relationships that sometimes happen thats something you have seen happen several times. In your experience what are the commonalities . Why does it occur . The first commonality is the perpetrator, the psychosomatic path is the one that we typically see that is able to pull the victim in this case over to the dark side. Now, i can refer to her as a victim. Obviously, she made bad choices. She may have been more involved. But its amazing the charm, the con, the manipulation and the grooming process that goes on with the more psychosomatic pathic inmates to be able to pull fairly normal looking and seeming people that are employed there over to the dark side and help them and become involved with them sexually. And in this case to be able to help them bring instruments of escape into the prison. Anderson . Go ahead, jeff. Its not just psychosomatic pathic defendants who do this. I wrote a story for the new yorker about baltimores city jail where the black guerrilla family they were not psychosomatic paths, just criminals. They took over the jail and they were sleeping with the guards all the time. One of the inmates impregnated four different guards in baltimore. I twoos it was completely widespread very wellknown. And these relationships are far more common than i think more people most people think. Anthony . With all respect, sir, we are got guards we are correctional officers. That term is insulting. I understand what you are saying. But we are not guards. We are correctional officers. Psychosomatic pathic involves the identity of the individual and the situation they can actually make or we actually present sometimes. Well put the inmate in the exact situation where manipulation can occur. But you have to look at the vulnerabilities of the target. When i train in manipulation we are going to train about situational factors as well as the persons vulnerabilities. If you need to work corrections, you need to be aware of your own vulnerabilities because the inmates will finds it out within a day or two. Correctional officers which are Law Enforcement officers whatever training they may have and as much training as they may have just as they are watching prisoners, prisoners are watching them 24 hours a day and probably more motivated to watch every move they make. The number one rule is you are not going to outwith it a manipulator. They know more about the system they know how to play the system to work to their advantage. Sometimes the policies and procedures become so routine they know exactly what they can do because they know our next step. We become predictable. Matt the gloves that the woman apparently brought in in october of 2013 could that have been one of the early steps in the grooming process, bringing in something innocuous, gloves i want to use for boxing . And thats the first step it starts with something small . Absolutely. I believe it probably started even before that. The grooming process is incredible. Having been a prison psychologist for years, i cant disagree with what these other two gentlemen are saying but you do have to really look for the more psychosomatic pathic individual. They have that ability to charm and to manipulate that the normal everyday inmate doesnt. And its true. There is only maybe 20 of the inmate population that might be psychosomatic pathic but in they use that charm in order the bring that person over to their side. I think thats what happened in this case. Another point is that correction officers are often very poorly paid. And they are not very well trained. So you have people who are vulnerable to start with. And it starts with you know, very minor requests bring me food bring me cigarettes. And then as you say, the grooming process continues. And thats what leads to situations like this. Anthony . First off, anybody can be manipulated. Have you ever watched the movie Shawshank Redemption . Did you not want them to break out at the end . Why . Because you associated with them more than you did with staff. My situation here is not that we are vulnerable not that we are getting paid less. First of all, we are profession and second we have a job to do. And sometimes when people arent aware of who they are could be anybody. Because there skrb psychologists that have been caught up there, higher status administration that has been caught up there. I think there have been attorneys as well. Attorneys. For you to say my opinion, you are belittling a profession thats in the shadows hold on sir, because what you said its insulting. You are belittling a profession in the shadows. Mr. Cooper brought us out to be seen in a light because we are not we are not recognized. When you Say Something like that to someone who has been in the shadows so long we get frustrated. Matt . The Corrections Officers in baltimore which i wrote about one specific issue. Were 18 and 19yearold kids who were being paid absurdly low wages who came from the same kmuchbt as the inmates. And they were manipulated. I mean, that does happen. Thats not an insult to the whole profession. I dont mean that at all. But it happens. And i dont think i would describe Joyce Mitchell from what i have seen as a professional anything. I dont want to get off topic. I appreciate all your perspectives. Anthony, gangi great to have you on. Matt loegan jeff toobin. Coming up just ahead, more breaking news. New reporting on the intimidation angle. The possibility, possibility that Joyce Mitchell was the terrified victim of a horrible threat. Thats one of really two options tonight. Well look at that ahead. And later she stepped down from her post at the naacp. Her brother speaks out telling us what she thinks of her claiming to be black. Now . Can i at least put my shoes on . If your bladder is calling the shots. You may have a medical condition called overactive bladder. Or oab youve got to be kidding me. Ive had enough its time to talk to the doctor. Ask your doctor how myrbetriq may help treat. Oab symptoms of urgency frequency, and leakage. Which may mean fewer trips to the bathroom. Myrbetriq mirabegron may increase your Blood Pressure. Myrbetriq may increase your chances. Of not being able to empty your bladder. 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What do we know about the possibility that Joyce Mitchell may have been forced by these guys . Is that a possibility . It is. This is something she talked to investigators about and that the state sector is telling cnn. She may have started to help them started down the road to betrending them and this relationship they say existed. And at some point the relationship turned and they used that information against her to say if you dont keep helping us we are going to use it against you. Essentially blackmailing her into helping them further. Thats where she may have gotten into tubl. Cold feet, couldnt move forward, couldnt move backward and didnt tell authorities. Do authorities believe Joyce Mitchells husband had knowledge of this escape plot. This may also be part of the problem. He worked at the prison remember. And they may have been threatening his life as well. So its not clear whether or not he had knowledge of the escape plot or at some point they begin to tell her that his life was at stake if she didnt help them. State Officials Saying she had agreed to be their getaway driver but at the last minute got cold feet couldnt go forward with the plan couldnt back out, and literally just stopped. Anderson. Miguel appreciate the update. Now a pair of individuals who know the challenges in tracking down fudgetives lenny depaul. He is former commander of the u. S. Marshal Service Regional task for force new york and new jersey. And rebounded fernandez who currently runs a similar task force covering the washington, d. C. Area. We were talking before we went on air. There was a lot of focus on the seamstress, what she knew, was she a victim of the plot . Was she in on the plot . You brought up the whole idea that perhaps she was just plan b all along, that she wasnt the main focus there was a whole other get away plan. Because essentially we are hearing the trail has gone cold. Its certainly the possibility. There is that intense manhunt going on. I hope im wrong. I hope they are caned within that prim term. There is certainly i know the Marshal Service and my task force they are certainly casting a wider net and taking a look in several states. Canada down to mexico. So yeah its just again, my opinion. I mean if she was plan b, they fed her everything. They gave her you know they let her hear what she wanted to hear. And they knew Law Enforcement she would be a target. She had a prior you know prior dealings with sweat and whatnot. Law enforcement is certainly going to talk to her, they are aware of that. Interesting, too. You could look at it as it would be smart to feed her stuff because authorities are listening to what she is saying and she has been apparently cooperating up to now, giving them information. If the information shes been giving them is a red herring, that would be a clever thing. Its certainly something you cant rule out. I know the investigators, im sure thats coming up in questions in the round tables they are having. You cant just focus again, there is an intense man hunt but there is also a fugitive investigation going on. They will leave no stones unturned. I hope they are in the perimeter. Commander fernandez how convinced are you that Joyce Mitchell was their primary accomplice . As time goes by it looks more and more possible that they either slipped out of the perimeter or did have help somebody else gave them help. Id like to address anybody directly who may have given them help. I mean we you heard the major. Law enforcement will not stop until these guys are caught. And once they are caught anybody who helped them, from the point of their escape to the point of their arrest, all of that is going to come to light. And anybody who helped them they could be possibly prosecuted and also possibly held liable for any crimes these two commit after their escape. The best thing for you to do is to go talk to the police right now. Because i can assure you that the states attorney is going to like favorably on the fact that you