And also joining us criminal defense attorney and hln analyst joey jackson. Walt let me start with you, do you know anything about the judge presiding over the case . And what has been the, i guess feel in the community about this particular case . Well you know the judge has been a fair judge all that ive known. And theres nothing to suggest that he has done or will do anything other than follow the law. The real question is what case or matters presented before him for him to make the decision and theres a lot of questions surrounding why only one officer was prosecuted or selected to be indicted. And the particular charge. Because theres a serious question about causation. And how, how does any one person know that mr. Brelos bullets were the actual cause of death . Or did he actually shoot a dead person . Thats a good point. I was reading that the defense is arguing this is about 2. 6 seconds. That the 2. 6 seconds were when he jumped on to the car and the defense claims by that time both were already dead. Thats according to a forensic pathologist for the defense. Do you believe it comes down to 2. 6 seconds . Or is it bigger than that . Well who really knows, thats the point. The real question is that there are other charges that could have been filed, that would have involved or implicated the other officers whether it be on a Conspiracy Theory or on a felony murder theory in the state of ohio. One person being held responsible for the cause of death for these two individuals, puts the judge in a very difficult position. Heres one thing a lot of people might be asking. People who watch csi or whatever know for sure you have ballistics tests and you can usually tell the fingerprint of a round from a firearm. And trace that back to the gun. Whoever had that gun. In this case it seems pretty clear that authorities are saying they cant trace which bullets hit this couple. Is that is that a fact . Absolutely. Thats exactly what makes this so difficult for the judge to make a decision. Every officer in cleveland is issued the same Service Weapon same rounds so in that respect, theyre identical. You know judge from a Legal Standard you ask a judge to make this call and issue a causation, he would not be incorrect in acquitting this officer. We have joey jackson, maybe wed like to go out to him. As you look at the situation and the judge about to come in any minute on this case what are your overarching thoughts about this Police Officer who right now is in jeopardy of being convicted on a manslaughter charge . Good morning joe, good morning christi, good morning walter. Its about two competing theories in the courtroom if youre on the side of the Police Officer who is defending this its about listen i acted reasonably and in accordance with my training and in accordance with my experience. There was a highspeed chase here, obviously youve amped up from that. You believe theres shots being fired at you. Its about the perception of fear. Is that perception that you have or fear joe, imminent enough for me to then strike back at you . And is the threat posed to me and the force that i use proportionate to what that threat is . And of course when youre acting under the sphere of all of the excitement and under the sphere of just having a moment to react, its a bit different. And i think thats why in this case what you saw the defense do is say look its not about monday morning quarterbacking its about what your perceptions were at that time. Of course if youre on the prosecutions side, youre going to say that your actions were unreasonable. You came out from cover, you stood on that hood and you discharged your weapon into that car. Firing and using as they said joe, using him as target practice and really killing you see the victims there. Killing them of course there is the issue of causation, but i think certainly the trial dealt with that issue from expert testimony. And you could see the trajectory of bullets that hit them. Based upon the rods and based upon the way that the Bullet Wounds entered. And so there are really two competing interests here. Were you acting in accordance with a perceived reasonable threat . Or in the alternative, were you acting unreasonably . Did you need to come out from cover . Did you in coming out from cover jumping upon a hood, act in a way that was converse to your training and certainly exceeding the bounds of the law . And that i think is what the judge has said the balance in making the right decision here. You can see there, just to reiterate whats going on here the judge, judge john oconnell, odonnell, excuse me has not yet taken his seat yet. But he is on the way we understand. And hes going to be telling us finally this verdict about Michael Brelo. I know a lot of you are out there, wondering perhaps why this chase started in the first place. And thats a really interesting concept here. It seems that an officer thought he heard a gunshot while he was had his cruiser outside the Cuyahoga County justice center. He pursued the car and something went out over the police radio that indicated an officerinvolved shooting. And thats why there were so many Police Officers involved. This was a 22minute highspeed chase there were 62 police cars. As we said 137 bullets were shot into this car, 49 of them were from brelo. This is what we know about the victims, we cant forget about the victims here. Youre wondering why were they running . Why didnt they stop . Apparently Timothy Russell, who is 43 years old, had alcohol in his system. Melissa williams had consumed marijuana. Both had tested positive for cocaine. But Russell Williams was shot 23 times. Melissa williams was shot 24 times and even you know the assistant Prosecutor SaysTimothy Russell made some bad decisions that night, but it should not have been a death sentence for him. So joey when we look at the defense in this case brelos defense, heres whey told the ohio bureau of investigations ive never been so afraid in my life. I thought my partner and i would be shot and that we were going to be killed. At which point i drew my weapon and i shot through the windshield at the suspects. Again, the point of contention here is that he was standing on the hood of the suspects car, firing into the front windshield. Is that joey, a lodge catgical defense . Thats what it comes down to christi. We have to answer the question of reasonableness of your behavior. And certainly you couldnt even imagine the adrenaline that must be flowing, you know looking at this as the defense has pointed out in the context of how it occurred. You, christi, breaking down the highspeed chase involved. The people who were involved in that car. The fact that there was something in their system i dont know that the officer had a basis to know that at the time. But the question comes down to when youre shooting at someone believing theyre shooting at you. When youre fearing and perceiving theres a risk of your imminent death and youre trying to defend yourself at that time does it transcend the bounds of that to now jump on top of a hood of a car, where youre exposed. And then the question becomes from a prosecution perspective, well if they had a weapon and you really felt that you were in danger of you dying, why would you fully exposureself jumping on a hood and firing rounds into that car . Unless you intended to kill them and knew that they posed no threat to you . And so thats what needs to be balanced. Was that the proper thing to do in accordance with your training no matter how scared you were . And so the prosecution is resounding the themes of accountability yes, police are scared. Yes, they have a tough job. But should they not reassess a situation and evaluate and use as a defense as excuse me the experts have said in this case for the prosecution, lethal force as an absolute last resort resort. And that includes discharging your firearm. Now 30,000foot view i would like to come back to Walter Madison for a moment. Were at a very peculiar place with cleveland, ohio right now. Where this city is essentially looking at three different individuals who have died as a result of Police Activity and theyre all controversial cases. You have Timothy Russell, you have Melissa Williams this case right before us. And then we have the case of the family that you represent, tamir rice the 12yearold boy in cleveland. Give me some sense, is there some type of a culture problem in cleveland, ohio . Or have they just had an unfortunate series of events in the Police Department . It is not an unfortunate it is systematic. And these are the words of the federal government. There has been a declared systematic and pattern of excessive force, thats violence. Joe, that is thats just three, two instances. There are many more. Theres a pattern of violence perpetrated upon citizens by the city of cleveland Police Department thats by our government. Were in a situation where the judge is getting ready to render a verdict and weve been very proactive in preventing violence. You dont have to support violence to understand the response that everyone is preparing against. The people of cleveland didnt start the violence. And speaking of violence were obviously hoping for calm in cleveland. No question about it. And, right. And we do know that there are some plans to try to get in contact with National Guard people and have them on alert or whatever in the event there is a problem in cleveland. But the fact remains that we have this situation here look the judge is coming in right now. And it looks like were getting ready to find out what the verdict is. Probably be another couple minutes here before before he actually sits down and takes the mic. This is judge john odonnell. And real quickly, you know lets listen here. Make sure we doesnt want to miss anything. You sat through the whole thing. Were on the record in the state of ohio versus Michael Brelo. All counsel and the defendant are present. D fearful of the police. Citizens think the men and women sworn to protect and serve have violated that oath or never meant it in the first place. Some of these places are long familiar. New york city, and baltimore. Some were unfamiliar until incidents there laid bare the divide between the people and the police. Ferguson missouri. North charleston south carolina. Probably not coincidentally these places are mostly africanamerican communities. Cleveland, too, is one such place. As the reaction and attention to this case and other recent events has shown. Every week i pass a mound of stuffed animals left in memory of a 12yearold that many people believe was murdered by the police. This animosity toward the police is fed not just by stories that tvwatchers and internet clickers are attracted to. But by Police Officers afronts, honest people treated as criminals, by unnecessary brutal treatment of suspected arrestees. By daily slights and disrespect real and imagined. By police on the people they serve. These realities in some neighborhoods have nourished attitudes towards the police ranging from wariness to outright hatred. And these feelings have existed long before they gained prominence through the proliferation of smartphones, surveillance cameras, and other recording devices that let pictures and news of Violent Police citizen encounters quickly saturate the internet. Some say the volatile relationship between police and the community is rooted in our great countrys original sin. Whether it is or not, that sin wont be expiated and the suspicion and hostility between the police and the people wont be extlipated by a verdict in a single criminal case. If defendant Michael Brelo is not guilty of the manslaughter of Timothy Russell and Melissa Williams if the evidence did not show beyond a reasonable doubt that he knowingly caused their deaths in violation of the constitution then i will not sacrifice him to a public frustrated by historical mistreatment at the hands of other officers. At the same time if the evidence did prove the charges beyond a reasonable doubt, then he will be found guilty and punished as any other criminal. His badge and gun offer no special protection here. He and i took similar oaths to support and uphold the constitution. If the evidence shows that he violated his, he can be sure i will honor mine. But whatever the verdict is a conclusion about the evidence in this case only. If he is guilty it doesnt mean the entire cleveland Police Department is dysfunctional. Incompetent and uncaring. If he is not guilty the verdict does not mean the department covered itself in glory on november 29th. And guilty or not guilty the verdict should be no cause for a Civilized Society to celebrate or riot. Whatever the outcome, two people are still dead and the defendants life is forever changed. I have mr. Mcguinty and mr. Deangelo, a 35page verdict that i will spare you the reading of the entire thing. There are probably ten pages or so that i do want to read on the record in open court. The rest of course you will have in moments. Ple knowing that death would probably result. But the state also has to show that the conduct was the actual cause of the deaths of russell and williams. Timothy russell had 23 gunshot wounds. The medical examiner who performed his autopsy, dr. Weens, numbered the wounds sequentially in headtotoe order, not the order they were sustained. So that wound number one is at the top of russells led. Wound number two, lower on the head and so on down to 15h. Of the 23 both wounds 1 and 2 to the head would be fatal. Taken alone. The nine wounds labeled at 15a to 15h together would be fatal combined. These are wounds that were penetrating shots to the chest and abdomen and for which, dr. Weems could not determine necessarily the wound paths. But of these, 15b from a bullet that pierced the heart and lung and 15c from a bullet that perforated the heart would each be fatal by itself. Wound 1 at the top of the head is from a bullet that entered there, less than an inch left of the midline and lacerated among other structures the left basal ganglia, which controls movement. Weems testified that the trajectory of that wound was down from the top, to the left of the deceaseds body and from the back toward the front of russells body. Wound 1 was immediately incapacitating to russell so that he could not move and by itself would have killed him within minutes. Wound two was another penetrating wound to russells head on the side. Entering two inches to the right of midline, just above the right ear. And injuring the brain stem which controls respiration and heart rate. Dr. Weems testified that this bullet caused a nearly immediate death. Like wound 1, the path of this bullet was down from russells right to his left. In that basic direction. And from back to front. Russell incurred the head wounds indeed all of his wounds while sitting on the drivers side of the malibus front bench seat. Other than that his movements are not known and his exact position at the time he was shot in the head was not known. What is known is that after the shooting stopped, he was found sitting back in the car and slumped to his right. Resting against and a little behind williams left shoulder. Because russells head wounds were incapacitating that is to say he wouldnt be moving after either of them and because they were so close to each other with such similar trajectories they either came from the same gun in rapid succession or nearly simultaneously from two separate shooters positioned near each other. And that shooter or those shooters would have been to his right on a cars passenger side. There is no evidence that brelo ever shot his gun toward the malibu from its passenger side. Wound 15b is a penetrating wound to russells left upper chest. The bullet that caused this wound came in from russells left and went right front to back. Where it entered the heart and would have killed russell within anywhere from several seconds to a minute. Wound 15c is a penetrating wound to russells left im sorry, right upper chest. About three inches from 15b. But on the other side of midline. Like 15b the bullet that caused 15c hit russells heart and taken alone, would be fatal. Also like 15b after sustaining this injury russell could have remained alive for a couple minutes, maybe. According to the testimony and could have still operated a car. But unlike 15b which came from the left 15c came from the right and went left. In other words, the opposite direction to 15b. Brelo stands accused of illegally using deadly force against russell and williams. From the trunk of zone car 238 and the hood of the malibu. His final 15 cartridges were spent while on the malibus hood. It took 7. 392 seconds to fire all of those shots. And they all came from the same place. Although russell could have been positioned relative to brelos gun barrel in a way that would have exposed either the top of his head or the right side of his chest, or the left side of his chest, to a bullet with the trajectory of wound 1 or 2 for the head 15b or 15c for the chest, it is highly unlikely if not impossible that during less than eight seconds, russell was positioned, then repositioned then repositioned again so that all four wounds came from the same gun in the same place. I therefore cannot find beyond a reasonable doubt that brelo took the four gunshots causing the four fatal wounds. Any one of which by itself would have caused russells death. Dr. Felo did the autopsy of Melissa Williams. He identified 24 gunshot wounds six of which taken in isolation were fatal. Wound 8 was caused by a bullet that entered just under the collar bone. About two inches to the right of midline and into the lung. That wound has a trajectory straight in. And from left, her left to right. The projectile that made wound 9 entered williams chest on a downward trajectory went left to right. Slashed the lung and pierced the ascending aorta. Gunshot wound 10 was on the right side of williams chest. Less than an inch from the midline. The bullet that caused it had a downward trajectory came from left to the right. And went through the sac around the heart and ripped the superior serena cava the major vein that drains blood from the heart. Woun