There could be a lot of reasons for that. But the framing from the white house is it doesnt necessarily mean flynn has turned on his former boss. A serious telling cnn that fired National Security adviser Michael Flynns defense team is no longer sharing information with the president s legal team. A sign that flynn could be preparing to plead guilty in special counsel Robert Muellers attorney. Mr. Trumps attorney disputes that in a statement to cnn. No one should draw the conclusion that this means anything about general flynn cooperating against the president. But the new york times, which first reported the story, details that the president s lawyers believe flynn is discussing a deal with mueller, pointing to the suggest criminal exposure that flynn and his son are facing. The new revelations coming weeks after cnn reported flynn was concerned about his sons potential legal exposure in the investigation. I have nothing to do with russia. To the best of my knowledge, no person that i deal with does. Reporter flynn is one of the most prominent. Flynn seen here sitting with putin in 2015 at an event in moscow. During the president ial tran eugz is, he misled Vice President mike pence about discussing sanctions with ambassador sergey kislyak. The conversations that took place at that time were not in any way related to news u. S. Sanctions against russia. Reporter we now know four days after President Trump was sworn in, the fbi interviewed flynn about his calls with kislyak. Acting attorney general sally yates warned the white house that flynn was vulnerable to potential blackmail by russia, but trump continue defending flynn. This man has served for many years. Hes a general. In my opinion, hes a very good person. I believe that it would be very unfair to hear from somebody who we dont even know and immediately run out and fire a general. Reporter the president eventually forcing flynn to resign. It was later revealed that President Trump had been pressuring fbi director james comey to back off investigating flynn before firing him too. Flynn also coming under intense scrutiny for failing to disclose payments he received from russian entities. The white house reportedly bracing for charges against flynn after three other Trump Associates were recently indicted. But the times notes the white house assists neither mr. Flynn nor former aides have incriminating information to provide about mr. Trump. The president continues with his Holiday Weekend here in sunny florida. A message from one of his assistants. Writing can you believe the disrespect for our country, our flag, our anthem continues without penalty to the players. The commissioner has lost control of the hemorrhaging league. Players are the boss. Chris and erica, back to you. Joe, bring in editor at large chris cillizza, associate editor for real clear politics, a. B. Stoddard and legal analyst paul c callan. Thank you for joining us the day after thanksgiving. Quick nod to the tweet. Do we see this as the heartfelt attention of the president or turning heads towards what he thinks work for him in the nfl kneeling deal . I think it may well be be both, chris. I think he does believe this in this heart of hearts. He stayed on this issue while he has candidly not been as prominent as it was early in the fall. Yes, players still do kneel. But it has gotten less attention than when it was an all encompassing story. He knows how to stoke his base. This coming after the news about michael flynn. And i think hes doing all of those things at once. We know from past thanksgivings and holidays, Donald Trumps tweets, when there are less people around him to sort of manage that tend to be more trumpian. I mean, tend to be a little bit less not that they are ever terribly perfectly formed as a president but tend to be more private citizen trump offering thoughts on things. And this is consistent with that. Trumpian. You choose your words very carefully, mr. Cillizza. I do what i can. You also brought up michael flynn. What does this mean about cutting off ties with the trump teams lawyers, the president s lawyers. How excited or not excited depending on where you stand with this, should people be . It is is an Important Development in terms of it could mean they have negotiated a plea deal with flynn. As part of that, he has agreed to supply information about the president or white house insiders. However, there are other possibilities. It could be there is a plea deal. It could be that the plea has to do with things flynn was involved in prior to his relationship with the president. Remember, he had his own flynn Intelligence Agency that allegedly worked for the turks. And had russian contacts as well. I sthaut on reflection the most interesting thing about this story is flynn has been cooperating with the president for so long. Thats really the revelation. A lot of times in criminal cases, if you think your man is going to get indicted, you may want to cut off communication with other people involved in the investigation so you can cut yourself a better deal. This suggests a friendly relationship between flynn and the president and makes me wonder is flynn hedging his bets to get a president ial pardon if in fact, he was indicted for some crime. That is at least a legal possibility because the president can pardon anybody under u. S. Law. Anybody who commits a federal crime, that is. A. B. , that is value added from paul callan. That is unusual and interesting that trumps lawyers have been working. Certain people have been questioned by different political committees, special counsel. There has been a distancing of all gentlemen from trump inner circle not with flynn. What does that mean for you . Well, i was also surprised to learn they had been in communication all along. Why else cut off communication with them but to cooperate with mueller to some extent. Mike am flynn was very tight with the president. The president made it clear to james comey that he wanted him to, you know, to drop probe into michael flynn. A legal expert told me recently that could be entered as bribery. You have to take into account intent. But that is an Impeachable Offense if it can be spwerpld to the fbi director you get to keep your job if you drop a probe into flynn. It is interesting maybe he was hoping for a pardon for him and his son. Maybe it reached the point where it seemed the president wouldnt or wouldnt pardon him. Remember, the flynn matter has to do with potential obstruction of justice. Whereas manafort is a separate issue, right . Hes being investigated for financial crimes and other things. But hes not involved in the chain of events that led to the firing of the fbi director, which we all have been led to believe and launched the special counsels interest in a potential obstruction of justice charge. So flynn is very tied into what could be problematic for President Trump. Chris, you have been careful to make clear we dont know that President Trump is was implicated in anything in his dealings with the turkish government. This is not good news for the president. It makes clear that the Mueller Investigation is likely to go on a lot longer than people in the would you say are hopeng. And the timing a lot longer than people are hoping. They dont want to deal with it. As we move into 2018, chris cillizza, this is not something that is going away. Its not. I feel like it is is the low hung in the background. If you listen for it, its always there. Obviously we have had a lot between roy moore, john conyers, al franken. Everyone who is not a politician in these Sexual Misconduct situatio situations. But there is that low hum, and its always mueller. That makes it difficult. It is this massive x factor. We dont know how high up it is going to be. I dont think the indictment of Paul Manafort is the thing that turns the house from republican to democratic. It is not good. You dont want it in your administration. I dont think its a thing people vote on. Michael flynn, Jared Kushner, donald trump jr. These are names involved at the center of that, as a. B. Points out, the meetings, things we dont totally know about, the firing of james comey. That is the stuff i think that is going to matter if we get anything on it. Were not there yet. Some of this is pro forma. People who havent been around the process. Investigations take a really long time. This has not been a long time. What is unusual here, paul, let me bounce this back to you, how we see people react to go what usually is a code of silence. I dont care what term you use for it, you shut up. Dont talk about it. Dont do anything to antagonize these guys. But with trump junior and Jared Kushner with a quote in vanity fair, lets talk about what their reactions have been and your surprise at them. Trump jr. First. Put it up on the screen. More nothing burgers from the media and others trying to create a false narrative. Keep coming at me, guys. Now Jared Kushner. Expressed worry after the indictments about how far the investigation could go. Do you think they will get the president kushner asked a friend. According to the president briefed on the conversation. Hopefully he is talking to us and not to the feds. That would be, by definition, crazy talk if hes talking to those guys. It is like going to the zoo with a steak in your hand, walking into the tigers cage. Hes saying, come on, bring it on, feds. It is the twitter philosophy of criminal defense which is insult the prosecutor and maybe you will scare him into backing off. That doesnt work with a special prosecutor. They are seasoned professionals. But all he is doing is making his own situation worse. I have never seen somebody frankly do this in a serious criminal case to say bring it on, boys. With the feds there are so many offenses that somebody can be charged with that the feds can bring up. Any federal form you ever filled out inaccurately is a potential federal crime. Any inaccuracy to any investigation is a potential crime. It is foolish to taunt the tiger as john jr. Does. We dont have any reason to believe that he thinks the president has any exposure. But the concern with an investigation is who knows what theyll find. Go ahead, cillizza. The uber example is carter page. Hes on the tv news, which makes for great tv. But why is he continuing to give interviews intermittently when hes talking to the house and Senate Intelligence committees . My mom always wanted me to be a lawyer. I nephew wanted to be one. But as a nonlawyer, i even know thats really, really dumb. If it means anything to you, you look like one. Thank you. Of course. A. B. , final word from you. Lets get intelligence into this mr. We end it. Well, i just think the flynn matter is more significant than, as i said, the manafort matter. It is very close to home. He has concerns about his son. It is really hard to look at this and not think he is cooperating with mueller. Remember, mueller got to flynns Business Partner. It means either Business Partner exposes flynn or flynn will turn on the Business Partner. It starts a new chapter. Thats why it lengthens this. As we were saying, the political context is it becomes scary for republicans. He has now apologized three times. Twice for groping women in pictures. Once for his conduct with Leeann Tweeden on the uso tour. You have john conyers who continues to deny these allegations of Sexual Misconduct that are out. And those saying, well, maybe it didnt happen. It is the situational ethics that is frustrating. Whats good for the goose is good for the tkpwapder. If you believe roy moore accusers, why not believe john conyers accusers . It is a distraction for democrats who think they have republicans absolutely 100 on the run. The Health Care Bill that has been tried and failed, hugely unpopular. This tax bill, hugely unpopular. Even if republicans get it through, and a. B. Is right, it is what they believe to be their only path to holding the majority. Even if they get it through, im not sure it pays off in the way that they hope. Regardless, what you have is democrats not as able to concentrate on sort of what they believe the bad elements of this bill to be. And republicans worried about their math in that when this goes through, if roy moore is a senator, do you keep him because hes a vote for it . You cant lose two. You can only lose one. This is the difficult of being Mitch Mcconnell or chuck schumer, the democratic leader. It is trying to do math while numbers are in front of your face. It matters when it comes to this Sexual Misconduct. The politics are so obvious. Chasing franken because he is a big name. Should be chasing conyers. He has more substance to attach in terms of the significance in these types of allegations and the settlements which none want to touch because they all knew what was going on with our money. Nobody wants to talk about it. That story matters the most, candidly. Were paying for their in cessions. 17 million dollars. And they cant tell you who it was for. Thats stunning. While each of these individual cases absolutely deserves the attention they get, that fact, and i feel like im one of the most cynical people in the world when it comes to politics, i was stunned by that fact. And the conversations all go the same way. We will have several today. What do you think of the settlementsments . Oh, they have to change. Did you know about them . What . Thank you to all of you, especially the day after thanksgiving. The first democrat in the house to call on her tkhraoeg congressman john conyers to resign over harassment allegations. Her name, Kathleen Rice. Shes on the show making her case next. An attorney for congressman john conyers says the democrat will not resign over harassment claims. But a colleague now believes he should. Congresswoman Kathleen Rice says the allegations against conyers are credible and repulsive. Is she joins me now. I hope you had a good thanksgiving. It is good to have you on the show. Thank you for taking the opportunity. Thank you for having me, chris. Conyers said it didnt happen. You say he should resign. Why . Because enough is enough. At this point what i was voicing publicly is what every single private citizen is saying across america. Why are the rules for politicians in washington different than they are for everyone else . And the list is endless. Compare what happened to harvey weinstein, louis c. K. , mark halperin. Yet once we get into the realm of politicians, get the Ethics Commission into it. Lets investigate this. You know, take forever to come up with a conclusion. Sorry. Just lost my earpiece. Thats all right. I will wait for you to get it so i can ask you a question. Got it. I think thats what people are sick and tired of. The rules in washington different different than they are for regular people. I am out of my depth against you because you are a seasoned former prosecutor. But you know well that the push back is hes innocent until proven guilty. And while the court of Public Opinion may hang on a second. Let me know when you got it. I can hear you. You anticipated the question 10 minutes ago. You know what im going to say to you. Innocent until proven guilty. Sure, the court of Public Opinion, pressure, private entities, they can make people do Different Things with different pressure points. What do you make of that push back. Were not talking about a court of law here. I spent my entire career before coming to washington as a prosecutor. This is not beyond a reasonable doubt. We dont have a Legal Standard here. Were talking about the court of Public Opinion. Were talking about Holding Men Accountable for their actions. A lot of these men against whom the allegations have been made are never going to face their day in court. The victims in these cases are never going to have their day in court. Thats a separate issue. Right now what were talking about is there going to be any level of accountable. And to say theyre going before an ethics committee, no offense to my colleagues on the ethics committee, thats not real. Thats not accountable. Why is that not real . It will come up whether with franken, conyers or whatever happens if roy moore gets into the senate. In this instance youre asking people, colleagues to judge their colleagues. In this instance where youre talking about harassment, i think whats appropriate is for these men against whom credible allegations are made. And no one is questioning well, some people are. If the allegations are made against them. But i hear politicians saying i believe every allegation. I believe the women who are saying things against roy moore or donald trump or al franken or fill in the blank. No one is questioning the credibility of these women. Chris, it is is really important to understand. Ive been there. 30 years ago i had almost 30 years ago i had an incident in the brooklyn d. A. soffice that was terrible. The way the system works is it is does not benefit theres no benefit to a woman who comes out and says, im being harassed. There are only professional consequences. I know what youre referring to. Other people will not. Youre not talking about a case that you tried in brooklyn. This was own personal experience in the workplace and a claim that you made the and what you dealt with afterwards, yes . Yes. Exactly. And it was brutal. Ultimately you dont make things like that public. Because as a woman in the workplace if you say this is happening to me, you become a professional pariah. You dont have any choice but to accept it. The workplace is not going to address the issue. I treated it very differently when i ran my own office as d. A. I took these very seriously. Theres no ben