Coronavirus, no longer fighting the spread. I want you listen to what the chief of staff mark meadows told jake tapper. Were not going to control the pandemic. We are going to control the fact that we get vaccines, therapeutics, and other mitigation why arent we going to get control of the pandemic . Because it is a contagious virus, just like the flu yeah, but why not make efforts to contain it . Well, we are making efforts to contain it. By running all over the country, not wearing a mask . Joining us now, cnn medical analyst dr. Lina nguyen. Shes an Emergency Room Physician and the former Baltimore City health commissioner. Also with us, dr. Paul offit with the Childrens Hospital of philadelphia and cnn political commentator, errol leaouis. Dr. Nguyen, i want to start with you and what weve just reported in terms of the Vice President. You say by the Vice President ignoring the cdc guidelines, the ones that all americans are told to look at if theyve been exposed, hes been exposed, the guidelines are clear, hes supposed to stay home for 14 days. Hes not doing that. Hes going back out to interact with voters. You say that is making doctors jobs harder. How . Well, alisyn, the Vice President s actions are irresponsible. And theyre dangerous. We have cdc guidelines for a reason, because we know that the incubation period for covid19 is 14 days. And before that, you could be testing negative and have no symptoms, but you could actually be harboring the virus and be able to transmit it to others. So i worry about the Vice President spreading it to others and also worry about his inner circle, the other people in the white house that are probably also not following the restrictions and the guidelines to quarantine. For us as physicians, its hard enough to convince our patients to quarantine, to forego a paycheck, potentially, for 14 days. Many people live in crowded housing, where they have to separate from their families. Its difficult enough to do. And it makes our job that much harder when the Vice President , who is the head of the Coronavirus Task force in the white house, doesnt follow these very same restrictions. He is not doing what he should to stop the spread of coronavirus. Period, full stop. He just isnt doing it. The cdc guidelines are crystal clear. Quarantine for 14 days. Hes not doing it. So dr. Offit, i want you to overlay that with the statement from mark meadows, white house chief of staff, who says, were not going control the pandemic. A statement out of the white house, were not going to control it. And he said that with one week plus a day left to vote. Well, certainly, other countries have done a much better job of controlling it than we have. So the issue isnt whether or not its controllable, were the worst country in the world in terms of number of cases and deaths proportioned to our population. So were not helpless here. I mean, its been shown redundantly, not surprisingly, if you maintain social distance, wear a mask, wash hands, you can dramatically reduce the chance that you or those who come in contact with you get sick. It is remarkable to me the sort of cult of denialism. Maybe it would help if instead of these virus particles were submicroscopic, they were actually little purple dots and everybody could speee. And if you see a picture of that rose garden ceremony, you see all of these purple dots around as people are hugging each other and shaking hands, et cetera, maybe that would help. Because right now its just simple denialism that is just impossible to imagine. Yeah, it would help if the virus was visible. I wish for those little purple dots. I mean, that would change everything. But as you heard mark meadows say, theyre not going to change anything, errol. They, i guess, feel impotent to stop anything. There could be a National Mask mandate. That doesnt require any work or any taxpayer money. So the fact that Vice President biden sorry, Vice President pence is not going to following the cdc guidelines, he wants to be back on the campaign trail, that tells you what about these next eight days . It tells you theyll try to sprint to the finish and go into full denialism and pretend this is not happening. They want to tell the public its all about turning the corner and were going to have therapeutics and vaccines and some magical escape from this crisis some time in the coming months, but please vote for us next week. Thats basically what theyre trying to do, is get out of this conversation right now. The problem with that, of course, is that weve seen what this all means. Even if you wanted to accept the president ees oftrepeated explanation that this is all about testing and thats why numbers are going up. Well, hospitalizations, when people check themselves into a hospital, thats not testing, thats not a statistical flu. Thats people that are in real trouble. And thats local news in every market where its happening, in states like wisconsin, where the medical system is being stretched to the breaking point. So to the extent that we know that a Public Health crisis is also a communications crisis, they are trying basically to communicate in a fantasy world rather than the real lived experience that a lot of people are going through right now. It is, i guess, a version, politically, of a hail mary play. Just hoping beyond hope, they can run with some shoddy information and get over the finish line next tuesday. Look, by not quarantining, what shes showing to me is that the Vice President cares more about winning votes than he does about protecting lives, period. Thats just what it shows at this point. He would be following the cdc guidelines if his priority was protecting lives. Hes showing that its not. And dr. Nguyen, we are in this situation right now where the sevenday moving average of new coronavirus cases is at its highest level yet. Hospitalizations are rising. 42,000 and rising. Errol was just talking about the situation in wisconsin, el paso, texas, theyre talking about having to airlift people from hospitals there. Theyre instituting a new curfew there. Talk to me about the strain right now on some of the systems in the country. Weve seen what happens earlier in in pandemic when hospitals become overwhelmed and patients end up not receiving care. Not only patients with coronavirus, but also patients with heart attacks and strokes and in Car Accidents who may find it difficult to Access Health care. That potential could be okurg all over the country, as our hospitals become overwhelmed. And unlike last time where it was only certain parts of the country that were experiencing this, now we have virus hot spots that are occurring everywhere. And thats what makes the comments from mark meadows and others so troubling, because this is not inevitable. We actually have a narrow window of opportunity right now to stop the explosive spread that is coming. There is a tidal wave thats coming, but we have this window to take action now that includes things like National Mask mandates. That include other targeted policies. This is not an all or nothing. President trump tends to frame this as either we shut down completely or literally do nothing. Actually, theres a lot that we can do that will both save lives and also keep our economy going. We should be implementing those policies now. Right, but the Trump Administration has decided not to do that. They decided if they were going to set up this impossible decision of herd immunity versus complete shutdown. And for some reason, they have advocated any control of anything that could have been done to mitigate it in the middle. Of all of the things youre talking about, dr. Wen, all of those things in the middle, theyre not optioning. So mark meadows say, were not going to control this pandemic. Are they forcing herd immunity on us . Right now today is the worst day of the pandemic that we have seen in this country in terms of cases. So are we all being subjected to herd immunity . Is that whats happening . Well, again, the there has never been an example in the history of medicine where immunity induced by National Infection has severely limited the spread of a virus. If you want the perfect virus, it would have done that, it would have been measles. If youre infected with measles, youre protected for the rest of your life. Youre protected against all manner of disease. In other words, not just moderatetosevere disease, but mild disease or even asymptomatic infection. That virus will bounce off of you for the rest of your life. And it was highly contagious. About ten times more contagious than this virus. Nonetheless, despite that, every year, 1 to 2 Million People would get measles, about 50,000 would be hospitalized and 500 would die. The notion that you can stop a virus spread by just letting the population become naturally immune has never happened. You know, the virus has been eliminated. Its made up. Its basically taking an administration that doesnt have a policy and trying to make it a policy by saying, were trying to induce Natural Immunity from herd infection, something thats never happened. And its instructive whats happening at the highest level. Were talking about the number of new coronavirus cases and how its infecting the entire country. The smaller level is the president and his political rallies, which in some ways is a microcosm of the Overall National policy, errol. And i want to play for you what the president said on 60 minutes. This is the president defending these rallies, which may very well be super spreader events to lesley stahl. Listen. Le lessley, we hand out thousands of masks. But you look out and theyre not wearing. Okay, whats your next question, lesley . Were outside, the rallies are bigger than theyve ever been, theres more enthusiasm than weve ever had. There has never been anything like youre witnessing now. Hes right about that, theres never been anything like what youre witnessing right now. And alisyn was asking a good question last hour, which is the president is going all in on these campaign stops. Hes holding as many of these rallies as he possibly can. And it my energize his supporters. But there is a flip side of that politically speaking. There is a risk that people see the president in a way ignoring the Public Health guidelines. How do you, errol, consider and weigh these risks . Yeah, well, look, the president is living in a world where he can sort of replay the 2016 campaign, which ended up with big enthusiastic rallies and so hes going back to that. Hes not a lifelong politician. Its the only way he knows how to win. So hes doing this, but at the same time, people are getting conflicting messages. They know that after, say, the tulsa rally that he held a couple of months ago. A lot of people got sick and some people died. We know that after the super spreader event at the white house. A lot of people got sick and were hospitalized. And some away like Chris Christie saying, i wish id never done that. Its going to be a mixed message. What hes hoping will be a local headline saying, the president came to erie, pennsylvania, or the president came to wisconsin or came to minnesota and hes hoping thats going to give him a lot of exposure and get voters to the polls for him. At the same time, right behind that, theres going to be the local newspaper saying, the hospitals overwhelmed. Spreading is increasing. Problems are real and people have to wear masks. And so, you know, look, its going to be up to the voters, obviously, to sort all of this out. But the president is telling people something that i think, if Public Health information is good at a local level, they know is not true. Thank you all very much for all the information. Our next guest spent two weeks observing 13 trump rallies. What hep learned about the president s closing message. Thats next. When i was in high school, this was the theater i came to quite often. The support weve had over the last few months has been amazing. Its not just a work environment. Everyone here is family. If you are ready to open your heart and your home, check us out. We thought for sure that we were done. And this town said not today. Akeeping your oysters growing. While keeping your business growing has you swamped. you need to hire i need indeed indeed you do. The moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a shortlist of quality candidates from a resume data base so you can start hiring right away. Claim your seventyfivedollar credit when you post your first job at indeed. Com promo im one of those competitors, where its not over until the bell rings, and i feel superstitious if i predict anything other than, its going to be a hard fight. We feel good about where we are, but i dont underestimate how he plays. That was joe biden on 60 minutes last night. The president was also on 60 minutes, until he walked out of the interview. Both candidates spreading out across the country with Extensive Campaign travel. You can see, the president s itinerary right there. Hell be in pennsylvania today. Former Vice President joe biden goes to georgia tomorrow. When i look at this map, thats what jumps out at me, is joe biden is going to georgia. Youll also notice that President Trump is going to omaha, nebraska, to fight for one single electoral vote. Thats how hard hes working right now. Joining us, cnn senior political analyst, ryan lizza. Also with us, kerstin powers, a columnist at usa today. And ryan, youve been on the trail with President Trump. I guess, what, 13 different rallies all over the country. Ive been following your tweets and dispatches. Is there a coherent or what is the coherent Closing Argument that youve detected from President Trump . Theres no single coherent Closing Argument. It depend on the day, the hour, the minute. Most of these events, as you know from watching them, are pretty stream of consciousness. Whatevers on his mind. At one event, recently, he spent 15 minutes just talking about plumbing restrictions on toilets, showers, and sinks. So classic trump. When he talks about biden, he goes into, obviously, this very exaggerated, incorrect, false account of his relationship with his son and foreign influence and china. You know, i think one thing i am struck by is the number of false statements at these rallies. I know we all know this. I know we all know he has a problem telling the truth, but i think watching rally after rally and then rereading the transcripts, you just sort of are struck by this Misinformation Campaign that, you know, theres a false statement at the heart of almost everything he says at these rallies, john. I know that sounds, you know, that sounds like im exaggerating, but thats the big takeaway, when you kind of immerse yourself in trump world right now, is he has built this sealed information bubble, where his supporters absolutely adore him. One of the main chants at a trump rally these days is just simply we love you. You know, no content, just, we love you. But he set out in 2015 to discredit the media and create his own information environment where he is the source of information. And for a lot of his people, he has done that. And i think that is just one of the major stories in american politics right now, that it is hard to wrap our heads around, because were sort of witnessing it in realtime and were sort of used to it. And kerstin, heaven help his supporters if hes their sole source of information. Because what hes telling them, according to ryans reporting, as well as our reporters, is coronavirus is fine. Everything is fine. And then what we learn from contact tracers in these different states is how many dozens of people get sick after going to these rallies. Yeah, i mean, it is an alternative universe. And you know, especially if you read ryans piece. Truly, almost every line that he speaks is untethered to reality. So, you know, obviously, its always problematic when people arent being honest, but i think when it comes to Something Like the coronavirus, it adds on a really extra meaning in terms of the effect that it could have on somebody. Because if youre telling somebody that theres nothing to worry about, if, you know, youre obviously not asking people to, you know, wear masks, even though the president keeps insisting, oh, we hand out masks, but then you look out and the only people Wearing Masks are the people near the president. And you look at everybody else and most of them arent Wearing Masks. And so theyre all exposing themselves to a deadly virus, just to see the president. Ryan, if we can put the map back up of the planned travel for the coming week, i do think its somewhat instructive here. Joe biden is going to georgia tomorrow. Two stops in georgia. And if you had said to someone two years ago that the democratic candidate was going to be important, valuable time a week before election day or the final day that people can vote in georgia and that the president is going to have to go to omaha to fight for one electoral vote, its pretty striking. Absolutely. And they Just Announced, its not on the map, but they Just Announced that trump will also be back in nevada and arizona. He didnt win nevada in 2016, so that is a real long shot for him. And suggests his troubles. Arizona, the fact that he won that. The fact that biden is very competitive there is a big deal. He probably doesnt a path without arizona. Im here right now in texas. Im not here on vacation. Im here because texas is you know, we dont call it a swing state, but it is a close, close state. A lot of pressure on democrats to send highprofile people here, either biden or obama. Jill biden was just here in texas. Kamala harris it was Just