Joins me. People say i fell out of love. Thats your choice. He talks religion, reason, and what America Needs now. The good life isnt good enough. What you need is the better life. The election, the economy, samesex marriage and more, to the issues that really matter. You know why we have to change the constitution . It was a flawed document. It was made by men. What does god mean to you . This is piers morgan tonight. Good evening, and happy holidays and welcome to a special piers morgan tonight. Joining me, one of the most influential spiritual leaders in the world, rick warren. Were going to talk about politics, sins, and much, much more. Hes the author of a purpose driven life. Its good to be here with you. What is the purpose of christmas . You know, the angels in the story the first christmas said three things. Those three statements say the three purposes of christmas. They are celebration, salvation, and reconciliation. First thing the angels said was, i bring you good news of great joy. Which shall be for all people. By the way, christmas isnt just for christians. They say its for all people. Good news for joy, its a time to party. I love in the northern hemisphere, christmas comes at the darkest part of our year, kind of lightens up everything. Theres so much bad news, we need good news. I bring you good news of great joy. Its legitimate to have parties. For unto you is born this day a savior, christ the lord. We all need saving. But theres a lot of other salvations, too. A lot of people need to be saved out of their finances, they need a financial salvation or a relationship salvation or a physical salvation from an illness or Something Like that. Its a time to look to god for salvation. And in the third, it says you will have peace on earth, good will toward men. Thats the reconciliation. How do you tally, then, the christian scriptures and teachings with say a muslim or a jew or whoever it may be . Were an overtly christian church. I believe jesus is who he said he is, the son of god, but we welcome all people of all persuasions and we say check us out. When jesus went out and started his ministry, the first phrase he said, hes walking along the jordan river and john the baptist had a couple guys following him, and he said, there goes the lamb of god. Go follow him. And andrew and john said, where are you going, lord. And here are jesus first words, come and see. Thats about as low a commitment as you can ask, just check us out. We say you dont have to say anything, sign anything, sacrifice anything, just check out us out. American is going through a slight down draw, if you like, in attendance in churches. 1 in 5 are now religiously affiliated. 1 in 3 under 30 are religiously unaffiliated. Now, britain, for example, far worse statistics than that. So america remains a very religious country, but why do you think its on decline . There are three different factors. One factor is the actual number of atheists in the country has remained the same since 1950, but theyre simply more vocal. That is true. Second, some of the surveys out there asking questions are asking the wrong questions. I think there was a pew survey that asked a question about protestantism, and then there was a big article saying the decline and fall of christian america, and it said protestants in america have dropped precipitously. Of course they have. I dont know a Single Person who calls themselves protestant. Sometimes the question may be wrong, but i think also during the last decade, the term evangelical became not a theological but a political term. A lot of people were turned off by the politics. Everybody know that president george bush was a, quote, evangelical, so you must be in favor of the gulf war, or you must be in favor of this. It caught coopted as a political term, and any time you do that, youre going to have separation. George bush when he was president used his faith and his evangelical adherence to almost turn the conflict in iraq and in afghanistan into a kind of holy war. And i thought that was a very dangerous thing for an american president to do. And reenforce when i always believed, you have to separate church and state. I think youre right in that, but let me give a counterpoint. He also used his faith to authorize the greatest Single Health bill in history for people of aids. Pepfar, which was the president s emergency plan for aids relief was a 15 billion bill. In the last ten years i have been in 164 countries, and i have people who say my husband is alive because of president bush. He literally saved hundreds of thousands of people. Im the captain. Yeah. And my issue with catholicism, i have issues with every religion, and im not the most devout catholic you would ever meet, but i was raised a pretty devout catholic. I cant equate what the pope tiuly onmsinria. , chocs to bee herhtf 3 rkg theoe ou t p yo cpan lot o ahego3 tst as ce b il rk3 ior g f ai s utohaen very much, hell Start Talking about sin and sinners and all the rest of it. Were in a modern age where if you start to use that kind of language, you brand sections of the community sinners because you believe thats what the bible has told you to say, youre demonizing these people. I find that hard to deal with. Dont agree, everyone is entitled to their view, but i dont like the demonizing. A sin is real, no doubt about it. I believe everyone has sin in their life. I believe the scripture tells me to focus on my own sin and to focus on loving you. A lot of times we get that reversed. Im always focused on your sin and loving myself. You are focused on my sin, you would be a lot older looking than you are. I dont believe that. I have a harder time with myself, you know. Years ago, the london times did a survey, a contest. They said write an essay on whats wrong with the world. G. K. Chesterton wrote that letter which said two words, i am. When i wrote purpose driven life the firs stee i ot y if g pis, ayt n rest of my life, but when you write a book saying its not about you, you have to figure the money is not for you. That was the easy part, giving it away. The harder part is what youre talking about. What do you do with not the affluence but the influence. One day i found a passage in the bible that changed my life. Written by solomon, the son of david. He was the wisest man, the wealthiest man, the king of israel at the apex of power. He said, god, i want you to make me famous. It sounds like the most selfcentered prayer you can imagine. I want you to give me influence, give me power, spread the fame of my name to every country. Every advertisement says we do it all for you, its all about you. It was kind of a little slap in the face that says its not about you. What is interesting is when i wrote that, i had no idea how many times i would personally be tested on that sentence for the rest of my life. Sometimes i have to say that five, ten times a day. If i get criticized, i say, its not about you. If i get praised, i say its not about you. If i have a major problem or delay, its not about you. I say it over and over and over. Do you like the extraordinary position of responsibility you now have for yourself . I dont say that i like it, but i try to use it. And actually, i try to use it as what i call the stewardship of affluence and influence. When i wrote the purpose driven life and it became the best selling book in American History and the most translated book in the world, that brought in an enormous amount of money and an enormous amount of attention. Honestly, it scared me. It scared me because i didnt want to be a celebrity. Thats why i never put our services on television. I didnt want to be a celebrity. I had to start praying about the stewardship of affluence and the stewardship of influence. Its tens of millions of dollars. I could have gone and bought an island and retired and had people serve my iced tea with little umbrellas in it for the rest of my life, but when you write a book saying its not about you, you have to figure the money is not for you. That was the easy part, giving it away. The harder part is what youre talking about. What do you do with not the affluence but the influence. One day i found a passage in the bible that changed my life. Written by solomon, the son of david. He was the wisest man, the wealthiest man, the king of israel at the apex of power. He said, god, i want you to make me famous. It sounds like the most selfcentered prayer you can imagine. I want you to give me influence, give me power, spread the fame ofy name to every country. Until you read the motivation lets take a little break. I want to come back and talk to you about sex and marriage. Sin and how many lustful thoughts you have on an hourly basis. Welcome to chevys yearend event. So, the 5. 3liter v8 silverado can tow up to 9,600 pounds . 315 horsepower. Whats that in reindeerpower . [ laughs ] [ pencil scratches ] [ male announcer ] chevys giving more. Get the best offer of the year 0 apr financing for 60 months plus 1,000 Holiday Bonus cash. Plus trade up for an additional 1,000 tradein allowance. Hurry. Bonus cash ends january 2nd. Up high ok. Dont you have any usefull apps on that thing . Who do you think i am, quicken loans . At quicken loans, our amazingly useful mortgage calculator app allows you to quickly calculate your mortgage payment based on todays incredibly low interest rates. Right from your iphone or android smartphone. One more way quicken loans is engineered to amaze. Is engineered to amaze. Excuse me, sir im gonna have to ask you to power down your little word game. I think your friends will understand. Oh no, its actually my geico app. See . I just uh paid my bill. Did you really . From the plane . Yeah, i can manage my policy, get roadside assistance, pretty much access geico 24 7. Sounds a little too good to be true sir. Ill believe that when pigs fly. Ok, did she seriously just say that . Geico. Just click away with our free mobile app. Happy holidays from cnn rome. All marriage problems come down to one of five areas, money, sex, inlaws, communication, and children. When cay and i got married, we went five for five in the first month. And our marriage was down down down. Pastor warren talking about something many people relate to. I work out the permutation. Money, sex, communication, inlaws, and children all go down in the same month. Pretty dramatic. A gallup poll shows the number one cause of divorce is money. During this last four or five years in economic recession, as a pastor, i have had to deal with a lot of marriages under enormous stress when either one or both are out of work. It puts additional stress on everybody. It really does, doesnt it . People lose their sense of purpose. They havent got a job, for example. Their sense of identity. We choose our identity. Their sense of selfworth, their pride. Theres nothing worse than being unemployed in terms of your pride. One of the things i try to teach people is that your value has nothing to do with your valuables. That your selfworth has nothing to do with your net worth, and that the greatest things in life arent things. Theyre not things. And when we anything we put in our lives before god actually becomes an idol, and it could be a good thing, but it also creates enormous insecurity. How do you know when theres something in your life thats not god thats number one in your life . Theres a symbol, worry. Worry says im assuming responsibility god never intended me to have. When you see americans rushing out in their millions to play the lottery, power ball, whatever it may be, desperate to try to win an amount of money that would change their lives, is it healthy . No, its not healthy. The reason is because the good life isnt good enough. What you need is the better life. And i think thats what jesus offers. When i was a little kid, my parents served me strained spinach. I thought that was really tasty. Today, i think parents should be imprisoned for child abuse for serving that because its pretty nasty stuff. But i thought strained spinach was really good until i got older and they fed me chef boyardee spaghettios. And then i found inandout burger. I tell people, youre living the good life, but if there was a better life, wouldnt you want to know about it . Im not one of these pastors or preachers who say im trying to scare you out of hell and into heaven. I say, you need the lord in your life, not because youre going to die tonight but because youre going to live tomorrow. You have to live tomorrow, and you need not the better life, the good life, you need the better life. You and your wife have been married 37 years. Very long and successful marriage. Have you had big problems in that marriage, if youre honest . Absolutely. In fact, our problems actually started on the honeymoon. We had a very unusual courtship. I took my wife out on our first date, and eight days later, we were engaged. Before we had a second date. And then at the end, we were going to college together, at the end of that year, she moved to birmingham, alabama, to work in an inner city africanamerican church. I moved to nagasaki, japan, to teach english. Our entire courtship, we were apart. It was by letters. When we actually got married, we knew we were in love with each other, but it was like, who are you . And my wife and i are as exact opposite in every detail of our dna except our commitment to each other and the lord. And the thing that made us last is we closed this escape hatch, locked the key and threw it away and said divorce is not an option for us. Were going to make this work if it kills us. At times, it nearly did. At one point, i ended up in the hospital over depression over our marriage problems. Cay thought she was having a nervous breakdown. We went to a counselor, a christian counselor. At that time, i was working at a college and making 800 a month, and my counseling bill was 100 a week. We wracked up a 1,500 bill, and i look back and say, was it worth it . Are you kidding me . I would pay a Million Dollars for what ive got today. My wife is my best friend. I know some famous people, but i would rather spend time with my wife than anyone else. I often think i should do a commercial saying mastercard, priceless. Saved my marriage. People say i cant afford it, i say, you cant afford not to. How much is your marriage worth . Do people give up too early . I think so. Youre an imperfect person and youre going to maryanne imperfect person, so two imperfect people cant have a perfect relationship. We often expect people, our mate, to fulfill in us, in our lives, something only god can fulfill, and youre going to be disappointed. No person can possibly meet all your needs. What happens if you marry quite young, in your early 20s, and everyone knows you change a lot in the next decade, and you get to your mid30s and you think, i dont want to spend the rest of my life with someone im completely incompatible with, im not in love with. What do you do . Before you get married, opposites attract. What makes you interesting is youre different from that person. If you know in your heart its dead. Before you marry, opposites attract. After you get married, opposites attack. The very thing that interested you now becomes an irritation. All of those things you thought were really cool, youre now going, cant you be a little more like me. Here are the things i have learned. Love is a choice. It is a choice. You love who you choose to love. When people say i fell in love, they make it sound like falling in a ditch, like i had no control over it. You have no control over attraction. You do have control over choice. And so once you have chosen, people say, well, i fell out of love. Thats your choice. Thats your choice. You can choose to work on it. Heres what i have noticed, piers, the greater the differences in a marriage, the more powerful a marriage becomes if they will work at it. The very thing that drives you apart, if youll work on it, you will learn the most from that person. They will learn the most from you. Hold that thought. I want to take a break. I want to come back and ask you my trademark question. You teed it up nicely. How many times have you been properly in love . Okay. Right now in america, pastor rick warren. Rick, how many times have you been properly in love in your life . Probably in my teenage years, i fell in love every week. That doesnt really count. You know, i bet i fell in love two or three times. And actually, each girl i fell in love with, the next one was better suited for me than the one before until i found cay, and she was the best suited of all. Given the right situation, you can fall in love with anybody. You could put two people on the right island, the right circumstances. You could fall in love with anybody. It takes more than love to make a marriage work, and just because you fell in love with somebody doesnt mean you should marry them. There are a lot of other factors involved. When you have fallen in love with a woman, it feels completely natural. Its not only natural, its euphoric. It doesnt stay. Why do you have such a problem with a man who quite naturally falls in love with another man . Or a woman with another woman . But why can you not allow them to have that euphoria that you had with all of the rights that go with that kind of relationship . Great question. The bible says you can love anybody. There is nothing in the bible that says a man cant love a man. In fact, there are many examples of men loving men in scripture. The bible just says you cant have sex with everybody. I fall in love with lots of different women. Doesnt mean i should have sex with them. Whats often framed as a love issue is not the issue. In fact, i am commanded to love everybody. I as a believer in jesus christ, i am not allowed to hate anybody. I am not allowed to disrespect anybody. I am commanded in fact, jesus said if you dont love everybody, you dont really love me. You say youre a tolerant man, and i dont dispute that, yet last time i interviewed you, you got into hot water with a lot of the Gay Community because you said the reason you were opposed to gay marriage, for example, is not everything is natural, like a gay attraction. Yeah. Its good for you, and you compared it to arsenic. Can i pull that back . Yes. I stand by the statement that not everything natural is good for me, but the illustrations were stupid. I pull it back. I disavow it. It was a dumb thing to say. Isodedense. Zedafds the moment i start hearing the kind of rhetoric that kirk cameron, the growing pains star came out with on the show, gay lifestyle being the abomination of the world, i get very angry because i think, im not gay, but if im gay and listening to this, im thinking who the hell are you to tell me im the abomination of the world. People would look at you as one of the great youre voted one of the most influential men in the world for your teaching and books. They look at you for guidance in a time when america in particular is going through an incredibly fast change in attitude to many things. What are you going to do in your gilded ivory tower, responsibility of influence as you see more and more american states supporting and voting and making legal gay marriage. Are you going to continue saying to people who come to your congregation, it is just wrong . Well or could you see a time w