The end of the war. The summer of 1978 to the summer of 1971. The experience stuck with me iss because of anything experienced as a combat platoon leader, but what i saw in terms of the decay and deterioration of the army in which i was serving. Oft gave me an appreciation the terrible effects of war. What was your career like . How long were you in the army . 23 years. I served until 1992. It was a year in vietnam early on. They were mypart, experiences of a serving officer at the latter part of the cold war. We thought we existed to be prepared to fight world war iii and that our readiness to do that to prevent world war iii from happening. I spent seven years in germany. Most of the rest of the time in stateside units that would have germany in the event of a crisis. 23 years in the service and finished as a colonel. Why did you in the first place go to west point . What was the drive for you and where were you raised . I was raised in the u. S. I was born in illinois and grew up in indiana. Both my parents world were world war ii veterans. This was at a time when i think patriotism was a very common toue and patriotism equated seeing military service as not simply honorable, but almost what it meant to be to be a citizen. I grew up in that kind of environment. When it came time to go to college, i had choices. I went to west point not because i thought i would be a career officer, but because i was attracted to what they had to offer. I thought i would save my parents a bunch of money to be able to pay for my own education. They not only paid for your education, but they paid for you to go there. It it equates to a stipend. It is spending money. Where did you grow up in illinois and indiana . I was born in normal in illinois. Chicago when my dad was in medical school. When he graduated, he served in the army for a year as an intern in hawaii. When we returned from hawaii in 1954, we returned to where he northwest corner of indiana around east chicago. From theyears freshman year at west point to the time you got out of the service . 1965. I became a cadet in the summer when we were first ratcheting up the u. S. Combat role in vietnam. 1965 until the summer of 1952 you went in in 1970. It afteryou think of you spend a year there . To answer the question, i have to put it in broader context, in the context of the 1960s. I mentioned my classmates and i showed up at west point in the top in the it after you spend a year there . Summer of 1965. We missed the 1960s. We lived a relatively insulated and isolated existence at the military academy at the time, while, outside the gates of the military academy, the country was coming apart in many respects. Coming apart because of the unpopularity of the vietnam war, also coming apart because of racial unrest, the emergence of a counterculture. We were aware of the fact all of this was going on, but we were relatively untouched by all of that. Being a cadet at west point in the latter part of the 1960s was a strange experience. The thing that interested us most as cadets was the word. Vividly remember at dinner, all of us got together in a very , at dinnerg hall when they made the nightly announcements, they would announced to members of the previous two classes who had just been killed, there was a constant reminder to us we were entering an army at war and vietnam given the fact it was a protracted war was the experience that awaited us. What also became apparent as we were there, the world was not going well. It was not simply that it was not popular at home. It was being mismanaged in the field, mismanaged from washington. As a 19yearold, i would have been able to articulate the ways in which it was being mismanaged. This was not going to be world war ii and end with a surrender ceremony on a battleship. The offensive, early 1968, happens in our junior year. , it is, this is the turning point in terms of the american experience. It is at that point when even the jonathan an administration acknowledges that we are no longer fighting to win. What we are fighting for is not clear but it is not to win. By the time my class graduates and we deploy, most of us in the spring and summer of 1970, we deployed to a war we know will not be one. We reallyd to a war had no intention of winning any longer. To anns out we deployed army in vietnam racked with racial tension, drug problems, and that makes it a difficult experience. I was time, i think probably confused. In some senses, i did not want to think too deeply about the war, his origins, it conduct, and it aspects. To think too deeply about those to confrontuld be difficult matters. It was a little easier, i think, to try to do your job. Try to be a good soldier. Dont consider the larger entiretions of the vietnam experience. I do not know if that is how my classmates handled it, but that is how i did. I tried to come home in one piece and go on with my life. To confront second or first . What part of vietnam were you stationed in and what was your job . The war was going down. Would. Nt nixon a lot periodically go on tv and make an announcement another 40,000 u. S. Forces were coming home. Units were closing down in vietnam. The effect of that on the individual was you might be assigned to this unit for your First Six Months and then you would go to another unit for the next six months. That is what happened to me. I served in a little town not too far from the coast for roughly the first three months. In thewas transferred central highlands. The calvarys mission was to acure a highway that ran from city on the coast through the central highlands. Our job was to keep the highway the highway opened. Then able to leader, thenon later leader i was an Operations Officer officer. I will come right back to this. Will kinduntil 2013, of work . From 1992, when i got out of the army, i guess i have been an academic and a writer. I spent six years in washington of advancedschool international studies. That is my academic apprenticeship. I was running a Research Institute and doing teaching. I was very grateful for the opportunity. In 1990 eight, Boston University invited me to join the faculty. I have been at Boston University since 1998. That has been a life transforming opportunity for me. It is a wonderful place. As au describe yourself conservative catholic. Is that still believe feel . Yes. In conversation with me work under the assumption that since i went to west point and was a soldier, those must be the formative experiences in my life. They were important. In many respects, what is more important is i was born and raised in the midwest, in the heartland. I was raised in a seriously catholic household and i remained a catholic. It is an important thing to me. And i am a conservative, but not a conservative in the sense of people who are in it hearings with the Republican Party claim to be conservatives. I think what passes for conservatism in this country is. Nything but conservative i would have somewhat a different definition of what it means to be conservative. , the notion that come to peoples mind when they hear the word spoken. Further define what you mean by conservative. Begin with the notion that conservative values our inheritance. They wish to maintain, to preserve, to conserve the inheritance. The inheritance is intellectual. It is cultural. It is social. And it is material. Ought toconservative be an environmentalist, among other things. Generally speaking, in our politics, environmentalism is seen as something that people on the left and hereto and people on the right scoff at. That is utterly wrong. Conservatives should be tree huggers. In terms of social values, i am a traditionalist. There are veryat powerful cultural forces in our ofntry that are dismissive the social structures that we have received from past generations. Those forces are so powerful, there is no turning them back. It is foolish to take gay rights as an example, it is fullish to think one will restore traditional norms in that regard. That said, i think we are too quick to overthrow these norms, and are not sufficiently aware of what some of the downsides will be. A conservative in the realm of foreign horror policy ought to be a realist, ought to bridle at the notion that there is some Great American mission whereby we will redeem or transfer form the world. A conservative should be exceedingly wary of war, and also, somewhat skeptical of military institutions. The day, war is uncontrollable. There may be times when you need to fight, but the notion you should see war as a desirable instrument of policy, that is not a conservative perspective from my point of view. We should respect soldiers, but be wary ofes should military institutions because they generally ought to be concerned about any large conglomeration of power. Conservatives should favor the distribution of power, rather than concentration of power. The greatest concentration of power in our country at our time is power around the military. Instead of conservatives throwing money at the pentagon, which they tend to favor doing, conservatives should be those at the forefront the pentagon. Not because they hate soldiers. On the contrary, because, as the founders in this republic correctly identified, the concentration of military power could constitute a threat to liberty. In the back of your book, it talks about the american empire project. Some of the other people writing one who isject deceased, yourself, james, michael, and others, most of those people would not be categorized as conservative. Rex why would you be a part of the group and what is it . It is not my project, but oni am happy to be part of it. I am thrilled to be part of it. The american empire project is a series of books published i metropolitan books, my publisher. The series conceived of by two guys, one of whom is named thanh englehart. Tom is my editor. He is also my friend. He is emphatically a person of the left, in every aspect of his politics. Am i there and still claiming to be a conservative . It is the answer i gave before. Conservatives and principled people on the left can make common cause and should in arguing for greater restraint in the way we think about and employee our military. Tom and i do not necessarily agree on abortion. But we do agree that this excessively militarized approach to Foreign Policy that has evolved over the last x years, and kind of reached its high point after 9 11, that this is not good for the country. Therefore, one of the themes of is american empire project to critique the militarism, from different perspectives. At the beginning of the introduction, what was that story echo a member of class of 68 from west point. When i first got there, he was a troop commander. Of c troop. I did not know him well. I did not know him at all until i showed up. Over the course of my tour, he was murdered. He was murdered an american soldier. This was, at the time, a shocking episode, and eye opening episode. Of my vietnamects experience that stuck with me. I had wanted for some time, however briefly, to tell this story. Because i think the story is an important one. I think murdered by an american ulder should not be soldier should not be forgotten. And, the event is emblematic of the times. That is something i included in the introduction. How did he get murdered by an american . Is it murder or an a mistake. Murder. Witherpetrator had words the captain. Thisieve, i cannot say for sure, the words had to do with allegations the perpetrator was involved in a eric theft. An enlisted man . Yes. Private. A lawyer . Marler. Broad daylight, on the firebase not on can not on patrol. E shot and killed record he was immediately detained, arrested, charged, sent to prison, and never heard from again. I tried to find out what happened to him and never could. He disappointed disappeared. His name had been removed and things more or less went back to normal. Any publicity on this at the time and how did you remember this . Virtually none. One of the one of the things i did for the book is go back and check stars and stripes. That is a newspaper published Forward Deployed forces ever since world war ii. It was during the vietnam war, there was a european version. I went and checked the pacific edition to find out how the shocking event was reported. It was barely reported. There is one short article mentioning the attack, providing minimal detail, other ton making a brief reference other attacks by enlisted soldiers to officers that have happened recently in vietnam. That the attack on the captain was a one off event. It was rather indicative of the deterioration of order and is a plan that inflicted the army and vietnam at the time. Video of to run a president obama saying some things about the condition of our country and then get your reaction to it. [video clip] america is back. Anyone who tells you otherwise, anyone who tells you america is in decline or that our influence has waned, does not know what they are talking about. [applause] yes, the world is changing. No, we cannot control every event. But america remains the one indispensable domain of World Affairs and i intend to keep it that way. What is your take . , you know, you would intoto be able to peer the president posses heart and soul to know if he meant those words. Saying what he has to say. He is saying what an american president is expected to say, making claims of our uniqueness that have become very commonplace in our politics. It is striking, his use of the o say. Phrase, indispensable nation. First coined aqua net albright was secretary of state. Used by bill clinton when he became the president. At the presentim moment is to in effect say there is no need for us to think seriously about the implications of our various failures over the past gates, particularly Foreign Policy. I am referring here specifically to the iraq war. But also, by extension, to the afghanistan were. The president is giving his listeners permission to forget all that and to pretend they did not happen. After you saw what was going , early in your career, why did you make a career out of the army . I did not have the gumption to get out. I had gotten married right before i deployed. Probably foolishly. That itime my obligation incurred by graduating was up, we had children, and the economy was a little bit soft. I do not think i had the self confidence to say, i could do Something Different and make enough money to care for my family. , inhe same time, the army its infinite wisdom, offered me the opportunity to go to graduate school. They said, we will send you to graduate school and then you can teach at west point for a while. That would take up the next , when i would know we would have a paycheck coming in. By the time it got to the end of that next chunk of years, at the tenyear year mark of my service, my son has been born. Now we have three kids. We seriously thought about getting out and then backed away from it. Life moves on. We have four kids. 1990s only in the early posses that i finally came to the realization that i was truly not cut out to be a soldier in the first place. My wife, who i love dearly, basically at that point said, she had never cared to be in the army, anyway. Made it pretty clear it was time to move on. We agreed. Here is another clip from the former secretary of defense. Tell us what you see here. A if you do not have Standing Task force capable of assuring you that in a short time, you could get in the business, in the event you need to be, you have substantially reduced the president s options. Conversely, if you do have it, and you are ready to go, capable of doing things, you may not only substantially increased the president s options, but you may very well provide the options in the crisis time that enables you to substantially defect the deterrent. I think the phrase he used that struck me most, he talks about task forces doing things. Doing what . In 2003, at the time the iraq war began, if we had been able dosay, mr. Secretary, what you mean by doing things, he probably would have said something to the effect, winning things. That there was an expectation that really emerged in the aftermath of desert storm, back by1991, seemingly confirmed the early success in afghanistan in 2001, that had created a very powerful expectation by 2003, that when we committed u. S. Forces into combat, they would win. They would win quickly. They would win decisively. They would win economically. Economically, both in terms of dollar cost and in terms of the sacrifices that would be imposed on u. S. Forces. Were those expectations to be valid, then sign me up. Sign me up. Give me some of those Standing Task force is that we can deploy while giving the president options, suggesting that knowledge of our adversaries that we can do this will perhaps cause them to think again. If you can guarantee me a vic three, sign me up here at what is the problem . The problem is we tested that proposition in iraq and it turned out to be not the case. Ofpite early evidence success in afghanistan, afghanistan also turns out to be a case that does not victory. Te when the president in the earlier clip is talking about the indispensable nation, what he does not want us to talk about, what he does not want americans to competent to competent to contemplate is that we do not want to win wars. We have the best military in the world. We certainly spend more on our military that basically the rest of the world put together. To windo not know how wars. It seems to me there ought to be a Serious National Conversation to ask why that is the case. Where does the fault lie . Our politicians . Too stupid . Are our generals and that . That, by itsfact very nature, war is unpredictable . To war is to roll the dice and you might win, and you might not. If you view war as rolling the dice, then, and this is what i think conservatives should believe, then you should really only do this when it is necessary. You need to go with eyes wide open because its not going to go the way you think it will go. You wrote back in 2004. The chief of staff of the army he was chief of staft of the army. Now head of the veterans administration, obama administration. Heres what he said in a hearing and shortly after that, he went away for a long time. We did not have any idea of the followup. He didnt talk about this. But lets watch this. Can you give us some ideas to the magnitude of the army force requirement for occupation of iraq, following successful completion of the war . In specific numbers i would have to rely on Combatant Commanders exact requirements how about a range . I would say whats been mobilized to this point, something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers are probably a fug that would be required. Were talking about posthoss pillties, control over a piece of geography thats fairly suggest with fairly significant with the kinds of