Constitutional convention, he tried to lead by conciliation, by listening, by cooperation. At the Constitutional Convention, he listened to everyone, he met with people at night, he worked out compromises. Sure, some did not go along. There were people he broke with like george mason. He brought enough together to work across lines. It was always shifting alliances. But this was not the dream he had. Its what we got though. Brian how much time have you spent at mount vernon to do your books the last couple of years . Prof. Larson i have been fortunate to be the good Great Library fellow. If you do not think something is a treat, to live in the residence and get up before the tourist, and be there after the tourists leave. Bring out my notebook, work on pages, experience, see the view that washington saw when i was , when he was him talking about this thing, i could work on this thing, too. That sort of experience, you know, it does not get better than that. Brian if you are in residence, do you stay on the property . Prof. Larson yes. Brian you stay right on the property. They built a new building. At first, we were in the middle quarters, where the vice regent was, but now there is a new building right next to the new president ial library, and there are facilities there they are very modern, and be foes get to stay there. In fact, i get to stay there tonight. The fellows get to stay there. In fact, i get to say there tonight. Brian in your introduction, you talk about the poplar tree. Why did you mention that . Prof. Larson i started out as a botanist and i wrote about botany a lot and i love trees. I love the grounds. But its not just me. Washington love to them. That triggers the growing their. Growing there. You can see it. 1785, that tree was planted the same year that i was riding about. That i was writing about. So, i was raving about him there in 1785 and he wrote a letter that year to one of his dear friends in france and he wrote to one of the people who helped with the revolution, and he wrote him that year saying, its great to be back home, and i am now getting shade from the trees that i planted as a youth. And now people are getting shade from the tree he planted then, but more critically, we are getting shade from the constitution he planted and the work he did as a general and the work he did as a president. That is providing the shade. That is what makes this country work. We had a Solid Foundation and he was a part of that. Brian there is video of you talking at mount vernon. Why dont we watched that before we get into the details . [video clip] prof. Larson welcome to mount vernon where i have spent the last year as a library fellow. This is the view looking east from Washingtons Mount Vernon home. This is the view he loved most. This is what he dreamed about. He lived here during the period that i wrote about in my book the return of George Washington. Remains as relevant today as in the 1790s. He was then, and remains today, the symbol of the united dates, united states, of a united country. In my new book about George Washington, i focus on the time between 1783 when he stepped down as general and 1789 when he takes up the reins of the presidency. It was that middle period that was pivotal, then made the revolution work and set up the presidency. Brian when did you do that . Prof. Larson just before the book came out. The book came out you will have to help me remember this the 14th . Brian the small book, the lecture series . Prof. Larson this little one is different. It came about because university of virginia press, which publishes the papers of George Washington, all about washington, they had heard some of the lectures and they wanted a small book that could reach, they thought a broader well, a different audience. People could use it as a supplementary course book in college, small enough for that, but also the type you could take an airplane, read on, and it captures the essence of the thesis that washington was the key nationalist that brought the whole thing together. They often say i make this allusion at one point, they often say James Madison was the architect of the constitution and i reply after doing all of this work that if James Madison was the architect of the constitution, and he might be, then George Washington is the general contractor. If you want to build a house or put an addition on, sometimes it is more like what the general contractor has in mind then the architect has in mind. Washington is the one who makes it work. That is the period i am covering. The funny thing is, we have these great books on washington, Pulitzer Prize winning books, the fourpart book by Douglas Philip freeman or sixpart, i guess it is they sort of skip this period. They dont go into the net into the nuts and bolts of what he did during the convention and leading up to the convention. Brian lets go to the dates then. You start in what year . Prof. Larson i really start in 1781 with the surrender at yorktown. That is when the critical period begins. They are not really at peace yet. The peace treaty is 1780 three. But effectively they are. I get into washington and the newport conspiracy, his incredible speech to flush the newport conspiracy. Until the time he is sworn in in april, may 1789. Now the older book, the return of George Washington goes a little further and carries into the beginning of the presidency. Brian what is the newburgh conspiracy . Prof. Larson the new burke conspiracy was that critical the newburgh conspiracy was that critical moment when soldiers this was after yorktown a year and a half after yorktown the official priest peace treaty has consigned. They are occupying new york, savannah, charleston. Washington moved his forces up. He spread around tarrytown, that whole area. But once yorktown was over, the states stopped paying their payments, the requisitions, their requests to congress. The troops had not been paid for a couple of use. There was a growing sense that the union was collapsing. They could not get a quorum at the confederation congress. The states were going their own way, planning for peace. And of course, whenever you compete, you compete with whoever is closest to you. New york will compete with massachusetts. The states are pulling apart that way. North carolina is going to compete with virginia. It frustrated washington enormously. He sent out a letter to the states during this time, but the troops, the troops and this is the scary part probably working with the letters, certainly with the knowledge of Alexander Hamilton and governor morris were either going to mutiny they thought they were going to mutiny, some of them, led by a few of the lieutenant and majors anderson and a few others, armstrong and a few others they were either going to revolt or get paid. Once the peace treaty is signed, nobody is ever going to pay us. Were going to force congress to pay us. What they wanted to do was recruit washington and as part of the coup detat. Hamilton had already talked to washington. This democracy stuff is not going to work. Washington was a true republican. He believed in republican government. Brian small r . Prof. Larson small r. It was a new experience, a continental republican. Something new under the sun. He believed in those enlightenment virtues. America could be a model. He wanted the troops to rise up and force congress to pay or threaten to go home and leave the country defenseless to be british. We read all the time about the troops not being paid if they had not been paid for two years, we read all the time about the troops not being paid if they had not been paid for two years, how do they live . Prof. Larson not very well. They would take loans from their friends. They would write home for money to be sent to them. Of course, they got their basic rations so they could eat. In many cases they were losing their farms back home. They could not send money back to their families to keep their farms. You can read accounts. They were in a very embarrassed position. Brian why didnt they give it up . Prof. Larson they believed in the same cause. And if they left they knew they were never going to get the money. Newer toward you were torn between believing in the cause and believing in washington. Brian the government of the colonies was what . Prof. Larson there was an articles of confederation government. If you read it, it says it is a league of friendship. It would probably be comparable to the United Nations today in the sense that every state joined it, and every state could send delegates to congress. Each state got one vote. They could send as many delegates as they wanted, and the majority of the delegates voted however they wanted to, except the states could instruct them how to vote, the governor could instruct them. The states pay them. They are sort of like ambassadors of the u. N. They do what they are told to by the administration. That was the only sense of a Central Government. It was a league of friendship. Brian did they call them prof. Larson prof. Larson states at the time . Yes brian did they call them states of the time . Prof. Larson yes. Confederation congress could not tell the states to do anything. They could not tell people to do anything. They could not raise taxes at all. Some of the disasters they could not put a protective tariff. When we became independent we were no longer under the protection of britain. All of these countries, france, you name it, imposed tariffs. We could not export our goods there. We could not impose a tariff. Goods with lowend through rhode island from money that you get from running a harbor. We could not force them to lower their tariffs. The result is that was causing a recession, probably even worse a depression that all of our gold, all of our hard currency was flowing overseas. And we could not export anything. And that helps contribute to the real chaos in the country. So, these lowerlevel majors, captains were going to rise up, possibly with Horatio Gates led Horatio Gates who had been the second ranking general who won the battle of saratoga earlier, he was also a newburgh. And so they called for a meeting. We know they were in some sort of allegiance with hamilton and the two morrises, because they wanted to force the states to allow at least a protective tariff, which would raise money for the Central Government. Brian was there a National President of any kind . Prof. Larson no. Brian was there a judiciary of any kind . Prof. Larson no. It was just like this. Theres a congress. They could rarely act. Brian when did the government going to affect . Prof. Larson the government went into effect with the ratification of the articles of confederation, but it very similar to the Second Continental Congress that was waiting for the last state of maryland to approve. Brian so 1781 and then 1783 is where you start really getting into George Washington . Prof. Larson well, i start really especially in this new book, some to anyone. Brian all i was really getting at, we go to 1787 in may, riding the constitutional prof. Larson correct. Brian by the way, before we do this, lets catch everybody up on your background. Where are you now . Prof. Larson i am teaching fulltime at pepperdine university. Also holding down the darling chair in law. Brian in malibu, california. Tough duty. Prof. Larson tough duty. Somebodys got to do it. Brian where did you go to college . Prof. Larson Williams College. Masters and phd from the university of wisconsinmadison. Law degree from harvard. Brian the last time i saw you you were here as a Pulitzer Prize winner for the scopes trial book. Prof. Larson the best part of the prize was being with you. It was a great part of it. I mean it. Brian did you expect to win the pulitzer . Prof. Larson no, i said i was dumbfounded. One of my teachers said, ed, you were never dumbfounded. You might have been shocked, but you were never dumbfounded. Brian in one of the books about George Washington, this seems to be relevant today. He said my fear is the people are not sufficiently misled to retract from error. Prof. Larson you can apply that to today. It was a chaotic time. It was a populist division, and sought advantages under the articles of confederation. Washington repeatedly said, there are demagogues. The problem was the states were small and they had popular democracy and some of them had no checks and balances. They had a onehouse legislature that ruled everything like rhode island, and they would be caught up in the enthusiasm as he would call it, a demagogue would take over, and for shortterm gain or their own the value would run roughshod over liberty, and he thought the revolution was not fought for democracy. It was fought for liberty. It was fought for individual rights. And party he saw places taking away freedom of religion. He saw like rhode island wiping out personal property. Those were the things for shortterm gain, and that was the majoritarian and democracy without checks and balances. Not small r republican rule, but as he would call it, jacob and rule, because of course they were beginning to make analogies to what was happening in france, the chaos of the french revolution. That sort of thing was what he was hoping the constitution could prevent. France had not gone quite that far, but he would be using that allusion by the time the ratification process was over. Brian what about the philosophical statement today, until it breaks, they are not going to fix it. Meaning the 20 trillion deficit. This is George Washington back in 1785 or whatever. My fear is the people are not yet sufficiently misled to retract from error. Prof. Larson that letter was written in 1786 when they called the Constitutional Convention and he was debating whether to go. He had been elected by virginia to go. And he said, im not going to go unless we have a plan thats going to work. And this is one of the letters. There were three very similar letters. There was one henry knox, john j york and James Madison. He said, what can we do . Im not going to go there i have limited political capital. If i go off to philadelphia to this Constitutional Convention, which had been called only to revise the articles of confederation, and thats not good enough. Because the problem is all 13 states would need to ratify an amendment, and he knew, he knew 13 states would never ratify, he could never get rhode island he probably couldnt get new york, because of those limitations, he said we have got to go in and not do what we are told. We have got to take over the convention and come up with a whole new government, and im just afraid the people are not going to buy it yet because there are people, most of them state leaders, and he had most in mind our home because he was still a virginian, Patrick Henry, who he felt was almost the most dangerous person in the country, that for their own personal gain to gain power. And he thought that Patrick Henry was willing to split off the south. These people for their own personal gain and they do not care as much. They are not committed in the same way, this small r republican rule, with liberty, protecting private property. He wrote to all of those people. Jay ando he wrote to madison. He delivered things, that he was really an idea person. Three of them sent back proposals. This is the type of government we need. Three house. A two house legislature. A separate governor. A separate court system. All three of them came up with almost the same system. He took those. He read them over, and he said, i now have a plan. Im not going to go to war. He was the general. Im not going to go to war without a plan that can work. He took those three and in his own hand he rewrote those three. Its not some secretary. He rewrote them and put them together into a single plan that became his working draft of what the constitution would be. What he wanted was a Central Government needed to have power over interstate commerce with a one market economy. By the european union. And in the pie can grow for all of us and were not trying to cut each others throats. The Central Government had power to directly tax individuals so it could raise revenue so they could tax and spend for the general welfare, and that was one of the items. National power over the military, because you had all of those state militias and you did not really have a central army, and the constitution is giving the state power over all of the militias, but it also allows a National Military and he had written out what he proposed earlier in his peacetime war establishment because one of the problems was the british never let the forts of the frontier. The native americans and had conquered half of georgia. He could not get to one of his front property is because the native americans stopped him. He needed an army to push the british out and expand westward, because he thought the future of america lie in the west because of property and expansion an opportunity for the Common People and for investors. Those powers and the power over International Commerce the power over commerce, the power over the military, power over the ability to command individuals directly for the general good when it is a matter of general concern and the power to tax and spend for the general welfare. That is what he wanted. Brian symbol definitions of the following. What is a nationalist . Prof. Larson a nationalist wants to create a nation out of the 13 states. He was also a federalist. He came to appreciate that some things could be left at the state level. Brian what is the difference . What does it mean to be left at what does it mean to be a federalist . Prof. Larson sovereignty lies with the nation. That is how he understood it. There we