And i am a magazine writer so im always looking for my next meal. Whats the Next Magazine topic . And i thought, the hoxha children. He did have children, three of them, could make a good magazine piece. Then the next thought, i thought you could do a survey of such sons and daughters and make a book of it called children of monsters. And i filed the idea way off of the stove, not even on the back burner. But i acted on it years later. Brian hitler, mussolini, stalin, mao, kim, i could go on. Which one of these 20 that you profiled in here did you find was the family the most difficult with other human beings . Jay that is a close competition. The stalins had a lot of trouble. That should not surprise anyone. The mao children are a mess. Pol pot has a daughter that is welladjusted. He had her pretty late in life, he was about 60, 61 years old. She got married last year. Most are disastrous. There are not many happy stories, but there are some. Brian we got a lot of children and their dictators. Here is a man who was jay he was a claimant, his mother was a french peasant girl. She said that hitler was the father of this boy. She didnt inform him of this until he was i think about 30. He denied it at first for years. He was tormented by it. Then he become obsessed. Then he become convinced he was, in fact, the son of hitler. Most historians say hitler had no children and this claim is not true. Whats important for my book is he thought himself the son of hitler and what effect did that have on him . Answer pretty bad. Brian he is talking in french. [video clip] [speaking in french] brian he looks little like hitler. Jay his son, felipe, looks so much like him. One of the things i say as, any number of french woman could have told their son that the german soldier father he never knew was hitler. Any number of french women. Why did this ones son have to look so much like hitler . It is a little uncanny. Now of course, he didnt have to grow that kind of mustache, did he . Thats him embracing the believed identity. It is creepy. Brian did he have any of the characteristics of hitler . Jay im not sure. I think he was a fairly normal man until he become obsessed with the question. It is a question that would make anyone nuts. I try to be sympathetic. Because, say one fine day, you have never known your father. You knew he was a german soldier. All of your life youve been called a bad phrase for son of a german soldier in france. And you are an adult. Your mother says to you about 30, that father you never knew about, he was the late chancellor of germany, hitler. Thats a card dealt to very, very few people. Very few. And so i try to cut him and some of the others some slack, although it was very, very hard to cut him slack for his admiration of hitler. Brian from april 29th, 1945, Benito Mussolini and his i mistress. Jay this is the gas station in milan. They had been shot before and murdered. He and his main mistress. Now the corpses are being hanged. Brian how many kids did he have . Jay officially speaking, i think he had five. A lot of these dictators, like other men, have kids off of the books. A lot of them have lots of kids off of the books. And, he was a good father on ceremonial occasions. What do i mean by that . He would swoop in and play the great papa. You know, when there was a crisis or something. But mainly he was busy being dictator of italy. Though his children absolutely adored him. It got complicated for his daughter, edda. Whose husband executed. That is a kind of a fine howdoyoudo. She loved her father and also her husband, count ciano. There are other daughters until that book whose husbands were killed by their father. Thats a very ticklish thing. Brian heres a video of the wedding. Edda . Jay shes edda. Brian edda mussolini. You say he had her husband killed . Jay yes. This was a grand affair. It was one of the great occasions of the italian fascism. The wedding of the fascism princess. Edda wins a fascist prince. He became the foreign minister. But then there was a rift. Ciano voted the wrong way on the grand council. He wanted to restore powers to the king. This is when italy was clearly losing the war. So mussolini is imprisoned and snatched by the nazis. And ciano was caught and slated for execution. And this drives edda wild. She pleads. The father will not stay the execution. And ciano is executed. Nad for a while, edda says, my name is no longer mussolini. But eventually she forgave and loved her late father and her late husband in equal measure. It is a very strange psychological case. Brian in 1995, we have video of her funeral. Jay oh. This is ive never seen. [video clip] brian this was 1995. They are saluting her. Jay yeah. Not yet out of style. Brian how active are they today . Jay they are around. They are a remnant. They are very enthusiastic. They dont have much electoral success. The leader is none other than his granddaughter, alessandra. Brian this video is this year. Shes on the floor of the european parliament. This is in italian. Lets watch. Jay how does she look . [video clip] [speaking italian] brian did you get all of that . Jay a bit. Yes. Brian what is her story . She was in the italian parliament. Jay shes had a long political career. Shes been in both chambers, the house of deputies and the senate. Shes been in the european parliament. Shes a somewhat big deal. Her father was romano mussolini. One of mussolinis sons. Romano was a jazz pianist. He performed with ella fitzgerald, dizzy gillespie, all of them. His first wife was the sister of sophia loren. So, alessandra is the daughter excuse me the granddaughter of mussolini and the niece of sophia lauren, one of the greatest stars in italy and the 20th century. So, alessandra has quite a heritage. Shes very faithful to her grandfathers legacy. She is a socalled neofascist. Interestingly enough, shes rather supportive of israel and disavows a bit of her grandfathers antijewish laws. Brian this is probably my favorite clip for a reason that has nothing to do with dictators. But some of the people watching will remember alfalfa and buckwheat. They will remember spanky and darla. Here is toro mussolini. Jay the little rascals . Brian yes. Jay he was the son. He wanted to make his name as a movie writer about movie and a director and writer and a screen plays. Een he was a bigshot for a while. World war ii killed him. Brian this is brief. He was a producer he had come to meet. If you listen closely after the foreign language, youll be able to hear spanky and darla and all of the brief things. [video clip] [speaking in a foreign language] brian the little rascals. Whats the point of this . Jay victorio and hal roach formed a pact, a business agreement. They were going to produce movies together, and as i remember, grand operas, starting with rigoletto. This was just before the war. It might have been 1938 or so. Hal roach took some heat in hollywood for the alliance. He said, i believe this is a direct quote, using the language of the time, he said Benito Mussolini is the only square politician i know. Square means straightforward or honest. But the pressure was too much. Roach brought out victorio. So he wasnt able to consummate the deal. Brian so far not that vicious. Who is the meanest of all of your 20 dictators . Jay the sons and daughters or the dictators themselves . Brian the dictators themselves. Jay theres no way ill give you an answer but with a preface. Theres no way you rank hitler, stalin, pol pot, amin, duvalier, others i dont think you should get much into the ranking business. Saddam hussein. But i want to tell you something about mao. Ill give you an opinion about mao. Not my opinion, but the opinion of those close to him. Theres something especially chilling about him, i would say. Because he seems to have been devoid of human feeling. He seems to have been so clinical. Saddam hussein, forgive me for saying so, you can kind of understand. He had a volcanic temper. He was a human being. An outrageous human being. A human being who engaged in great evil. But you can sort of see a person in him. Mao is almost robotic. Hes an ideological robot. And he views the hundreds of millions of chinese as so much experimental material. He wasnt happy. He wasnt sad. He wasnt mad. He was just detached. Brian how many kids did he have . Jay he had about 10. He knew about four. The others died in infancy or were given away during the war or the civil war. He didnt care much about his children. Brian what happened to them after he was gone . Jay the two daughters live on as kind of ceremonial figures. There was a grandson. He was a kind of general in the army. He was promoted in the army based on his name. People mock him. Hes dopey and quite chubby, doesnt look like a military man. Mao had a granddaughter who was one of the richest women in all of china. Her husband is one of the richest men in all of china. But maos children, this perhaps goes without saying, led very sad and turbulent lives. Just very difficult lives. Brian the only video we have is maos daughter. This is a visit in northwest china in 2015. This was this year. Jay really . This is the only child, i believe, that mao had with the wife we know as madame mao. Brian how many times was he married . Jay i think about four. He intended to discard his wives for others without telling the original wives. Brian how long did it take to get the information . Jay it was hard. Theres a great stinginess about concerning dictators families. Often theres often a code of silence around many dictators families and the legacies of those families. It is a tight knit thing after the dictators falls. But i describe myself as a scavenger. I describe myself as a kind of garbage man. I was digging around. These sons and daughters most of them, some of them are famous and important. Some of them become dictator. But most of them are footnotes and asides. And you really have to dig to find out about them. A few of them write memoirs. Most of them keep their own counsel. So you just pick up things. An historian, a visitor, a scholar will remark on a dictator. You go ahha. It is real gold to you. Brian people today would know uday and qusay . Who are they . Who were they . Jay i think senator mccain said the lovable scamps. They were the two sons of Saddam Hussein. They were little monsters. They are an example of boys who were the monsterous reflections of their monster father. In fact a renegade in saddams secrets says they were 100 worse than him himself. That is hyperbole, of course. But i think as i say in my book, once you get to know the two sons, you can forgive the hyperbole. Because they were awful. And in particular, uday, i shouldnt say too much about him, but he was a monstrous person who tortured and raped and murdered and terrorized his way through life. Brian we have a video of him firing an ak47 during a party in a restaurant. [video clip] jay hes trying to create a little bit of excitement. I dont think we can see it, but there are lights strung in the form of happy birthday. Surely in arabic. And he shoots the lights out. Musicians duck. He just did it for fun. He kept constant chaos around him. He had total license in a country of about 27 million. There was one person, one human being who could stop him, and that was his father. His father sometimes did and mainly didnt. Brian how many times was saddam married . How many kids did he have . Jay saddam was married twice. Some people say three or four times. He had one original wife and one later in life. He never divorced the first one. He had those two sons, and i think three daughters. Two of the daughters married brothers who were cousins of saddam. And those two couples with their families defected once to jordan. You may recall this, brian, they stayed there under the protection of king hussein. They were enticed back home. There was a lot of bloodshed after that. Brian what happened to them . Jay the husbands were promised safety and reconciliation. They are immediately made to divorce the wives, saddams daughters. They were stripped of their military ranks, they were sent home to their fathers villa or compound. And then there was a great gunfight and they were killed. I think within about 48 hour of returning home. Brian were you able to talk to anybody in iraq about the se children and what happened to them . Jay yes. I was able to talk to some knowledgeable people. I couldnt talk to any family members. Which was usually the case. In the preparation for this book. There are only so much around to talk to, and only so much willing to say what they know or to divulge their feelings or experiences at all. It is a very touchy business being the son or daughter of a dictator. But i was able to find out quite a bit about saddams family. And one of the daughters is a bit of a public figure. She lives in oman and is in jordan again. She was one of the defecting wives. Shes a great loyalist to her daughter, though her father killed her husband. In fact shes nicknamed little saddam. Shes a great supporter of isis. Shes wanted by interpol. She goes to the finest boutiques, has tons of plastic surgery, shes in jewelry design, and shes a keeper of the Saddam Hussein flame. And why the government of King Abdallah ii maintains her and shelters her, im not 100 sure. Brian the History Channel did a documentary on uday and qusay. They came to an early familiar end. We will watch 20 seconds of this. [video clip] a ferocious fourhourlong firefight ensues. Later that day, after troops storm the house, word comes from Central Command about the results of the raid. Four persons were killed during the operation. They were removed from the building. We have since confirmed that uday and Qusay Hussein are among the dead. Two days later, these gruesome pictures confirm the identity of the dead. For many iraqis, the death of husseins two sons is cause for celebration. Because under their rule, iraq had become a living hell. Brian what would those two men do to others . Physically when they were alive. Jay a lot of the people in my book order torture and killing. A few of them like to do it themselves. Uday liked to do it himself. He liked to get his hands dirty. He tortured and killed a great many people. A great many. Brian and never suffered from it. He could do anything he wanted . Jay he was the kind who it goes without saying that he could abduct and rape the daughters of ordinary men. That goes without saying. He could abduct and rape the daughters of governors, of high officials. He was untouchable except by saddam. And except for this. There was an assassination attempt. He took some bullets. It partially paralyzed him. And when the saddam regime fell, our soldiers found about 100 canes, some of which functioned as firearms. Brian how did you pick the 20 . Jay i went for what i thought was the worst of the worst, the very worst dictators. Modern dictators. I didnt go back into antiquity. You could have gone for the ivan the terrible who killed his son with a with his scepter. The czar killed his son with his own scepter and immediately regretted it. This was in a rage, and he was mortified by it. Theres a famous painting of this moment. I didnt do that. So i picked the ones that i thought theres some subjectivity here. There are a couple who really dont belong. Theres one i feel sort of guilty about. Franco doesnt belong in a book called children of monsters. He doesnt belong with stalin and mao and idi amin and pol pot and all of the rest. He was a dictator. We wouldnt want to live under him, or any other dictators. Sometimes in the dictator business, we grade on a curve. He was a lamb. I included him. Maybe i shouldnt have. Ill give you my reasons. They are probably bad. Hes famous. People know of him. He had a daughter whos led an interesting life. He was a dictator after all. I erred on the side of including him. Brian we have some video of carmen franco. This is his daughter. This is from her wedding in 1950. How many children did franco have . Jay just the one. Just the one. [video clip] brian thats him on her left. Jay that was a very grand affair. She married a marquis who was a surgeon playboy. He was a friend of christian barnyard in south africa. He did the first heart transplant. Carmens husband did the first heart transplant in spain. Brian what happened to carmen . Jay carmen lived on. Her children and grandchildren have lived quite difficult lives. She has lived with a great deal of grace and poise. Shes a symbol of neofascism. Theres just a few fascists left in spain. Shes a bit of a grand lady. One thing i discovered in this book is that well, it may be true that fathers in general especially prize their daughters, theres nothing like a relationship between a father and a daughter. And franco had only one child. That child was this girl. He absolutely adored her. She was the greatest, brightest thing in his life. They lived until the end of his life pretty near each other. They spent a lot of time together. It was the most prized relationship in francos life by far. Brian what book is this for you . Jay this is my second real book. I have a collection of journalism and speeches and things like that. Brian i wanted to ask this question while i was reading your background what is it like to write about monsters and their children and dictators and all of the horrible things that you report in this book compared to all of the time you spent writing about music, and explain how many writing you do about music . And, explain all the writing you do about music. Jay i say i have a day job and a night job. Music criticism is my night job. I like the balance. I dont think i would like to do all of one. I must say, i was pretty happy finishing children of monsters. I was glad to begin it, i was glad to do it, and i was glad to wash my hands of it. I wrote before that to a history of the nobel peace prize, and i was reluctant to see the history end. Some of the characters are unsavory. But to have written the book about sons and daughters of dictators, you rub up against a lot of unpleasantness. I tell the story about, here is a boast, name dropping. My friend, paul johnson, whom i love, the british historian. He he wrote a book called open quote creators wrote a book called, creators, about intellectuals and maybe comedians. He was doing a series of sketches of lives in categories. He was going to do one called monsters. He called it off. He didnt want to spend so much time with the material. He did later on write a brief life of stalin. I asked him, was that left over to the research . The bigger book on monsters. He said yes. He wanted to use the material. Brian you wrote about franco and mussolini and then you wrote about hitler. What is it about these dictators that came out of europe, that life that they lived, compared to the kind of people that you write about that people had wrote symphonies and operas. Jay yes. Brian how does that come out of the same body . Jay the dictators had a great will and thirst for power. They imagined themselves doing good. They deluded themselves that they were doing good for the great masses. They didnt think of themselves as on ego trips necessarily. They almost always had a rational or some fake humanitarian or governmental rationale. And the composers and other artists really, i think, the best of them were born to do what they did. The best artists, i think, are born to do what they can do. They are compelled to do it. But im afraid to say that some of the dictators, even from boyhood, feel themselves fit to rule. Hitler memorized great swaths and he thought he would be a Great Imperial leader from very early on. But people often talk about this is just an aside. People often talk about hitler and vogner. Probably his favorite work of art was a humble operatic, the merry widow. He awarded the composer when he was chancellor. Brian you write for the national review. How long have you been there . Jay since the late 1990s. Brian what did you do before that . Jay i worked for an editor in washington. It was a joy later to work with rich lowry. Brian how long did you write speeches for george w. Bush . Jay hardly at all. I wouldnt even say i wrote speeches. In the 2000 campaign, i took a sixweek leave of absence. The last of the campaign mid september to election day. I went to austin and assisted the speech writing team. And i flew back home to new york after the election day. But the election wasnt decided until mid december. So that was my experience. I enjoyed it a great deal. I remain a great admirer of bush 43 and his father for that matter. Brian where are you from . Jay ann harbor, michigan. I call it a small citadel of the left. I tease, but i do have a fondness for it. I really do. I think you can tell when i write about it. Im an ann arborite. Brian dad and mom were from there. What did they do . Jay my father was a teacher, principal, coach. My mother has long been an artist and painter. Brian if people want to read your writing about the composers, where do they find it . Jay i am music critic of the new criterion. It is the arts and letters journal founded in 1982 by Hilton Kramer and samuel littman, the late scholar and pianist. Brian if you want to read what you write about composers, read about it in google. Put your name in it and it is there. You also wrote for the new york sun for how long . Jay i did. It is in the 2000. It is an older newspaper. For the duration of its existence, i think it was about six years. I was a music critic. Brian near michigan . Jay yes, my hometown. Brian back to the monsters. This person is not a monster, but the daughter of one. Shes talking in english. This was back in 1967 right about the time svetlana came to the United States. [video clip] and they started of the history and social sciences and marxism itself. It made me a little bit critical to many things which i could see around me and to the things i could see in the country and in other socialist countries. It was not exactly what we were taught theoretically. Something about her. How did she relate to stalin . How many children did he have . Jay officially speaking, he had three. He did have others. He had one with a first wife and two with his second wife. He had two sons and a daughter. She and svetlana had a wonderful relationship until she was 16. She was probably the light of his life and she worshiped her father. Her mother killed herself when she was 6. Her older brother was 11. When svetlana turned about 16, she had the problems of growing up as people do. Stalin kind of tired of her and dropped her. She really never saw him that much after then. Brian why did she come to the United States . How did she get here . Jay it is a tangled story. She had a relationship and near marriage who was then the soviet number one. He would not let her marry the indian man she had met, an indian communist who was losing his communism and returning to buddhism. Mr. Singh died. One of his wishes was his ashes be spread on the ganges. To leave the soviet union, she needed permission. They said sure. Ill give you two weeks. You cant speak to the press. And so off she went to india, urn in hand. And she loved being there. She loved being outside the soviet union. And one fine day, morning, i believe, she walked into the u. S. Embassy and asked for political asylum. And our guy, the american official on duty said so you say you are the daughter of stalin. The stalin . One of my favorite stories about svetlana. There are a great many. She led a turbulent life. I want to bring up something which may surprise you. I just learned about it the other night. I wrote a magazine piece about svetlana adapted from my book. And a colleague emailing me and said he was youtubing around. And he found a show from 1967. They were asked questions by the audience. Both of them. And someone asked woody allen, are you surprised that George Hamilton went to the wedding . Now, what was that all about . Well, George Hamilton, the actor, had dated Lyndon Johnsons daughter, linda. She married chuck robb. Apparently hamilton was invited to the wedding and was there. And then allen was asked something else. Allen said, all i want to know is George Hamilton going to announce his engagement to svetlana stalin, who had recently defected. That was the big yuck. You come into this. I think you were at the wedding. Brian i actually was. Yeah. Years ago. Jay did you not escort lady byrd, the first lady, down the aisle . Brian i did. I was in the military at the time. Jay speaking of moments in history. I really didnt know what that crack was about that woody allen made on the tape which is youtubable. That was the wedding. Svetlana was very much in the news. She was a sensation. Then her star dimmed a little. She grew greatly discontent and in fact redefected to the soviet union in 1984, immediately regretted it, wanted to leave almost as soon as she got there. She would have been stuck there forever, but luckily for her, gorbachev rose to power. After 18 months he let her out. She said i had to leave for a while to realize how wonderful it was here. She led a very turbulent life, as most of these sons and daughters do. She led a more difficult life than most. As i argue in my book, i think some kind of greatness lay within her. She told the truth when it was very hard to do and had a rebellion of conscience against the soviet system. Brian and came become and died in wisconsin. Jay yes. A Nursing Center in richland, wisconsin. Brian jump now to idi amin and his son jafar. How many kids . Jay about 60. Brian who was he . Jay he was the dictator of uganda. In the 1970s. He was almost a cartoon of a dictator. Hes some peoples idea of a dictator. He was deposed in 1979. He spent one year under qaddafis protection in libya. And he lived out the remainder of his days under the royal familys protection. He kept having kids. I think almost until the very end. I believe the span of children is born in 1948 and the last one in the mid 1990s. That is the span of his children. And, believe it or not, he seemed to have been a dad to his brood, more like an army. They called him big daddy. He was jolly and fun loving. The kids were a mixed bag, as you might imagine. Brian jafar is being interviewed. It is in english. You have to Pay Attention to what he says about his father. [video clip] my father was a very mothering individual. The only example of him is obama. Children who have lived with their mother have an incredibly sensitive persona around their children of progeny. Today i find negatives talked about him. But right then there was a caring and the mothering and the love. He was strict. As any father should be. Expected to be. You use silence with children. He was the quiet type. He had a quiet presence. But that love, despite the fact when you have 60 children. He had enough love to go around. Yes. Brian what were you thinking when we were listening to that . Jay well, it is an outrage. And it somehow soils the memory of all of the people, the thousands of people whom amin murdered. And yet i called jafar a pretty standup guy. Hes a complicated case. Hes a whitewasher of his father and his crimes. At same time, he believes in reconciliation efforts in uganda. He is pretty honest despite what youve heard. Pretty straightforward. He will take on all comers. He took on me in a long email interview. I must say, i admire him. Hes obviously conflicted, to use the modern psychological parlanlce. I dont like the living by lies. At the same time, i think in different moods he knows the wrong his father committed. Thats why he leads reconciliation efforts in uganda. And he does have some clear, honest, confessional moods which i believe then pass. Brian nikolai and his wife, alaina. Heres 1989. This is when the wall came down. Jay is this is the end . Christmas day in 1991. Brian 17 seconds. [video clip] [inaudible conversations] brian whats that story . Jay they ruled romania together for decades. They brutalized the country and spied on everyone. He was a vicious dictator. He had a full partner in his wife, alaina. They were brought down in december of 1989 and executed, as i remember, on christmas day. He goes it is interesting that everyone has religion. He goes singing the communist hymn. I think it is a kind of prayer. She goes cursing her executioners in the saltiest romanian. That is how the two of them go out. Brian what did they do to the romanians, and how long were they in power . Jay he takes over in the 1960s. He lasts all that time. They had a pretty tight rule of that country. Almost as tight as hoxha had over albania. It was almost a Perfect Police state and totalitarian environment. They brutalized that country. Everyone was held in the thrall of that couple. The state security agents the state security agents just controlled the entire country. Brian i know this started with you on the 2000 trip. We havent seen hoxha. How long was he in charge . I remember the lid on that country, we did not know anything about that country before it was opened up. Jay yes. North korea is called a hermit kingdom. But albania was a hermit kingdom, too. So were other dictatorships. He was just after the war until he died in the mid 1980s. Brian heres what he looked like and sounded like in albanian. [video clip] [speaking albanian] brian how many children did he have . Jay three. He had two sons and a daughter. Brian did you meet them . Jay excuse me for laughing. No. No. They do not meet with people like me. They are real loyalists, the children. They believe their father. You never know some of these people, brian. I should not assume. Some of them may harbor doubts they would never express. I try to be very careful about that. Also, some people who say some things may be leave another. Brian how did hoxha keep the lid on albania . So nobody could get in or out . Jay he sealed the country and had the concrete bunkers allegedly all over the country. He had a very robust secret police. It is a relatively small country. It was completely under his heel. In fact, one of the nicknames bestowed on him was sole force, the only force. In albania, that was pretty much true. Brian who was or who is Alena Fernandez . Jay a daughter of castro who couldnt stand it in cuba and defected. She did so with a passport and a wig. She got out and wrote a book and memoir of her life in cuba as castros daughter. It is to use one of the worst reviewers cliches, a searing book. It tells the truth. As i mention, shes as hard on herself as she is on the old man. It is a fascinating book. Brian where is she now . Jay miami. Brian lets watch her in 2009. She speaks in english. [video clip] it is amazing the way it can control the body and the mind of human beings. Castro seems to know sadly what to do controlwise. Given the result of the fall of the soviet union, cuba become a harder place to live in. Because of a ruined economy, the life collapsed. Schools almost closed, food was impossible to find, water was a luxury, impossible to find, as well as public transportation. If you try to do something to improve it, you are sent to jail. Brian how many children and wives did castro have . Jay 10 or 15. Theres no official count. No one really knows. We trust that he knows. He may not know. He probably does. He married early on long before he came to power. A beautiful girl from a a society girl. Merta was the sister of castros good friend and law school classmate, possibility roommate. He had a couple of sons who became u. S. Congressmen. My dear friend, lincoln, and his brother, mario, their aunt merta was briefly married to fidel castro. They had one son, little fidel. Fidelita. It is unclear whether castro married again. He himself denied it in an interview with an admirer of his, the film maker, oliver stone. Brian with the pope was recently in cuba and you saw that, what was your reaction based on what you know about castro . Jay i have met and interviewed and written about many cuban dissidents over the years, former Political Prisoners. And, they are some of the people i admire the most in all of the world. And i think Democratic Forces should back them to the hilt. What dictatorships most want is that opponents be forgotten and their names not mentioned. And what the opponents most want, the democratic opponents, is some kind of attention. Some sign that the world hasnt forgetten them. And i remember Jeane Kirkpatrick named the names of the prisoners in the gulag. She named the very names. When she later visited the soviet union, sakharov said to her kissinger was there and sakharov said, kirkpatsky he said, your name is known in every cell of the gulag. Thats because of what she had done for them at the u. N. , just saying their names. In fact, that is how he used his nobel lecture. He was not allowed to attend. But his wife did there was a. Good alaina, although she was tough, too. Believe me. In the address, sakharov pauses and takes a detour and reels off 100 names. Of soviet Political Prisoners just says their names through his wife. Thats what they wanted. Brian gadhafi. Jay oh, my. He was one of the seven sons of gadhafi who tried to be straight or a western liberal or arab reformer. He really wanted to. He went some way in that direction, but in the end when the libyan civil war started, he was loyal. He went home and fought for the dictatorship. Now he is in prison and wanted by the hague. Brian here he is in 2011 speaking in english. [video clip] 10 years ago, today, and tomorrow. Im the first person. Im the first person. We need more freedom. We need democratic. I said this many, many times. It did not happen. Now you have an uprising on your hands. Now we have people who want to split the country, east and west. Now you have people who are terrifying other people. Now you have terrorist and militia. Now the picture is different. Brian that was an al jazeera interview. Hes in prison for what . Jay during the war he acted as his fathers Prime Minister in effect. And they fired on unarmed civilians. And he was charged by the world court with war crimes. Hes wanted for those. He could not escape libya. He tried to. Libyan forces captured him and have been holding him prisoner ever since. The libyan authorities, whatever they are, have refused to extradite him to the hauge. Brian what happened to the other six children of gadhafi . Jay three of them died in the libyan civil war. Two of them managed to escape. Three of them were sent back by niger. One of them was sent back. Hes in prison. So is saif, he had two sons named that. The others are in exile in the gulf. Brian how many times had gadhafi married . Jay twice. One child with the first wife. I believe she was the daughter of a general. He was married very briefly to her. He took up with a nurse whom he met when he was hospitalized. They had, i think seven further children. Brian bashar alassad. How many children . Jay seems about six. Brian how many wives . Jay one as far as i know. Brian what happened to the son who was killed . The eldest . Jay basil was to be the successor. He was the golden boy. He was the next dictator. He was killed in a car crash. He was trying to catch a flight to germany. He was in his new sports car. He went in the round about in front of the airport and flipped and died. And, the next oldest brother, bashar, was in london practicing eye surgery. That was his role in life to be an ophthalmologist. He was very quiet and shy. He had no interest in dictatorship or politics or power. And when basil was killed, the old man called him home. And began to groom him for succession. Brian when did the father die . Do you remember . Jay seems to me it was 2000. Brian heres bashar al assad, currently the president of syria. [video clip] we talked about europe and didnt accept them or embed them as refugees. It is about not dealing with the code. If you are worried about it, stop supporting terrorists. Thats what we think is the crisis of this and the cause of the holy. Brian thats just a few weeks ago. What do you think of him . Jay that would take longer than we have. He has killed more than his father ever dreamed of killing, probably bashar has. Along by the way his righthand man or thug is his brother mahar. These are really family dictatorships. Bashar never wanted this. But he took it up with a vengeance and hes done all of the killing necessary to keep the Family Business going. This is the only thing you can say in his defense. I dont know if defense is the word. This is what some might say. Ill repeat it. If he falls, his fellow people are slaughtered. It is kill or be killed. Who knows, it may even be true. Brian how long did the book take to write . Research and write . Jay i think i spent a year writing it. Brian what do you want somebody to take away from it . Jay two levels. First of all, it is a collection of very, very interesting stories. It is about alltoointeresting lives, and maybe toofascinating lives. You wouldnt wish this kind of life on most people, really. So it is a collection of sometimes interesting and lurid stories. There are also points about tyranny and sonship and daughtership and about loyalty and nature and nurture and even about democracy. Some of the early readers said they came away feeling so grateful they live in a democratic country with a rule of law. Ive heard that from, i think, two or three readers. Im sort of impressed. That wasnt my aim. Brian not from a like or dislike point of view. Of all the 20 dictators, which one would you like to interview the most . Jay probably one who has said the least and who needs probing. Which one . I think i know their answers in advance. I think i know their answers, excuses, apologies, and rationals in advance. But i tell you who might be somewhat forthcoming. Frankly you saw jafar there on the screen. You might get something out of amin. Brian were out of time. Jay nordlinger has been our guest. Theres a lot we didnt get to discuss in the book. Jay was i too longwinded . Brian no, no, no. A lot of details we didnt get into. The book is called children of monsters. Our guest is a Senior Editor the national review. Thank you for joining us. Jay thank you. I am a huge fan of brian lamb. It is an honor. Brian thank you. For free transcripts or to give us your comments, visit us at qanda. Org. Programs are also available as cspan podcasts. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] if you enjoyed the interview, here are some other programs you might like. Jennifer teege talked and my grandfather would have shot me, and Blaine Harden and ann applebaum. Talking about her book, iron curtain the crushing of eastern europe. You can watch these anytime or search our entire Video Library at cspan. Org. Live, your calls and comments on washington journal jeb bush at a Campaign Rally at tampa, florida. Withthe house gavels in speeches. Business,sons having give their attention. This week, we will discuss the Supreme Court case of schench versus the United States. The United States entered world war i, and some forms of criticism of the government. Charles shank, the general secretary, handed out leaflets against the draft. This was the flyer that was produced in 1917. 50,000 copies were produced. The language in this flyer is particularly fiery. It calls on every citizen to revisit the laws. He was found guilty under the espionage act. He then appealed and the case went directly to the Supreme Court. Find out how the court ruled. Our guests include thomas ,oldstein, and beverly gage professor of history at yale university. That is coming up tonight at 9 00 eastern, on cspan and cspan radio. Order your copy of the landmark cases companion book, available landmarkspan. Org cases. This morning Heather Macdonald looks at whether Law Enforcement has become more difficult since the riots in ferguson and baltimore. Becky pringle talks about standardized testing and the future education policy. Discussestom scully the increase in the number of retirees and the fiscal sustainability of the program. As always we take your calls and on facebook and twitter. Ation congressman paul ryan of wisconsin begins his first week as speaker of the house today as congress returns. President obama will head to new jersey to talk about Group Criminal Justice Reform in the Supreme Court will hear a case about determination in jury selection. A group of real republicans met to talk about the way forward on the debate, and this in the wake of last weeks cnbc debate and complaints about the content, format and moderators
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