Was your reaction to the secretarys comments . Were you heartened . I know we recently wrote a story about the possibility of transportation mixing with tax reform. The secretary saying no. Gopher big step forward. If you put grover big step forward. If you put Infrastructure Spending inside tax reform, thats less resources for further rate reduction. It reduce what is can you do in terms of the reform on taxes. Separating that is helpful. Bob maya, as far as the debt, and the offsets, it has been reported that the border adjustment tax certainly as the house has it is not going to be one of the offsets. Are you concerned about this being blowing a hole in the nations debt . Maya thank you for asking the question about offsets. Thank you for asking the question about the debt. Im a huge supporter of tax reform. We need tax reform as a way to grow the economy and increase competitiveness and lowering the Corporate Tax rate is an important piece of that. But theres been no talk of what the offsets are. This is clearly on the give away side on a lot of desirable things. But the purpose of tax reform is to grow the economy. The way you grow the economy is you bring rates down, you also grow the economy by having improved allocation of capital which comes from broadening the base, which is one of those huge assets. The way we can pay for this is bring rates down and broaden the rate. That will help growth. The third thing that will help the growth is dont balloon our already near record level of national debt. So if they really are focusing on growth, i think that is the purpose, you want to plan thats paid for. We have seen time and time again that the Economic Analysis is that tax reforms that are paid for grow the economy more than those that arent. And i just what i dont want to see is this tax reform will be paid for by magic. Bob jared, as far as bipartisanship, do you see it in tax reform . We havent seen a lot of bipartisanship so far. Jared perhaps. This isnt tax reform were talking about. This is tax cuts. Tax cuts should not be conflated with tax reform. My vision of tax reform is one where we recognize that revenue neutrality, which as mike suggested what were going to see wont come anywhere close to that, is inadequately low benchmark. If you simply look at demographics alone, were going to need more revenue not less. If you think about our challenges whether they are environmental or geopolitical, were going to need more revenue not less. What i call tax reform is not what secretary mnuchin was describing by a long shot. Im not alone in that view. I would add to that that tax reform should not be disequalizing. It should follow what we think of as you correctly inquired bout, as the new chin mnuchin rule. Tax cuts for the wealthy. Something he alerted would be there. Every single plan this team goes far in the other direction. This isnt tax reform. This is regressive tax cuts that will exacerbate our fiscal challenges. Bob dave camp, former chairman of the ways and means committee, you have dealt with this issue. You have the scars to prove it. What advice would you give the trum now that they are jumpstarting this initiative today . Dave what we heard this morning is critical that the administration is fully engaged on this issue. And they are coordinating as much as possible with the house and Senate Leadership very interested in advocating for tax reform. As you go through this process, certainly with all of the people and all the data and all the resources that an administration has, they can certainly help trying to get through the ups and downs that are going to be natural in any kind of legislative process as big and complicated as this. The fact this they are on this, they want to try to do it, that they are pushing forward to try to do it this year, is actually welcome news for opportunities for success. I did not have that kind of engagement from an administration or congressional leadership at the time. Touchdown i think this is a big game changer in terms of the chance having it become a reality. Bob do you see this being a big difference in how health care was handled . The administration did not put forward its own plan. Dave there have been a number of plans and ideas on tax reform from members of both parties over the last decade. I think there is a broad could be census our tax code is broken wayne anne we need to do something about it. Under 2 g. D. P. It is not enough growth to absorb those young people trying to enter the work force. Theres some common themes and when you get into details its harder. That is very different. Health care issue has been a very polarize polarizing issue for many years. And tax there have been disagreements. But there are some ideas there that arent quite as partisan as some other areas of policy. Bob grover, health care theres been indication that is the Freedom Caucus is striking some type of deal with the administration and leadership. How important is it to get health care done first . Grover i think its extremely important. President trump has said so as well as the congressional leadership. E reasoning for it is that obamacare was 19 taxes with a stethoscope stapeled to the top of it. 19 taxes for 1 trillion over a decade. So if youre going to get to a progrowth policy, the best payfor is growth, you grow at 3 a year for a decade instead of 2 , you get 2. 5 trillion more revenue coming in. Its a huge payfor. Its better than taking money some place else out of the economy. If you can take 1 trillion off the table to start, thats the 1 trillion of obamacare, which by the way is matched by more than 1 trillion in spending, 1. 2 trillion over a decade in spending that increases in the out years. That is there for payfors. Thats a trillion dollar tax cut every decade out into infinity fully paid for, offset by spending cuts. Not tax increases. But spending restraints. Then you move over and you are 1 trillion closer to your statue of what tax reform should look like. Thats why its extremely important first step. If you skip that you end up with a mess. Bob the path to getting it done. If you have a deal and able to flip a lot of the Freedom Caucus members, you lose moderates, but it could get through the house, then the senate will be difficult, too, isnt it . You can only lose two votes. Grover this has been prenegotiated with the senate early on. There are senators that have pieces in this. Theres a section for stuff the senate wants in the bill. So this has been worked with the senate. Nd with the governors as well. Obamacare repeal is also reform of the medicaid. Block granting medicaid to the 50 states. Having 50 states do as clinton did with welfare reform, 50 different approaches. You learn what works and what doesnt. The one size fits all you never learn anything. 50 different states, block granting. Its a reform of medicaid. As well as a repeal major reform of obamacare. Plus the trillion dollar tax cut. When ryan antipresident told the Freedom Caucus and the tuesday group go in a room and come back when you can count to 218, that was important rather than have them each one whispering into ryans ear about the other kid or trumps ear and they got tired of that and said you guys work it out. Thats where i think they wouldnt have walked out of that room without the level of support they need. Bob maya, speaking of the Freedom Caucus, there are a loft members who want to they have debt bills and they want to attack the debt. They would tackle medicare and Social Security which President Trump doesnt want to do. Do you think that he could change his mind . Mark meadows tried to change his mind and was unsuccessful. Do you think its something he would do in a second term if he wins . Maya all indications are he sticks to the things he said during the campaign. The things he said during the campaign he wasnt going to make changes to Social Security and medicare. The problem with those promises along with the other promises he put out plus the existing fiscal situation is the numbers dont add up. I think the thing thats most likely to change his mind is if you go through the fiscal situation where were right now, our debt is at the highest level relative to the economy its been since we came out of world war ii. Before he does any policies, were on track to add another 10 trillion to the debt over the decade. That will be his 10 trillion. Thats something he was very critical of president obama or overseeing. He will own that. And then hes got a whole lot of policies on his wish list from tax reform, which now sounds like its not going to be fully paid for, to spending increases. You cant do that. You cant cut taxes, increase spending, and take the most critically drit cal part of the budget to reform off critical part of the budget to reform oft table. The important thing here is you are talking about sequencing between health care and tax reform. The first step in this process has to be the Budget Proposal of the budget the administration put out was a skinny budget. It dealt with 1 for one year. Soon theyll come out with the full budget. The question is how are you going to have all those numbers Work Together . What we know from republicans in the house in particular in the past is, they have been very set on balancing the budget in 10 years. You cannot get to balance if you have big tax cuts and mportantly take off nilts. Sorry, grover, numbers are completely unrealistic in terms of growth. The reason we wont have sustained 3 growth we should shoot for but we have a different labor market situation we have had in the past. There are no credible estimates of all those policies that could get us up to 3 in a sustained way. What i dont want to see is us plugging in am birs Economic Growth numbers that wont get us there. What i want to see is a whole comprehensive plan to grow the economy. That will include bringing our debt down and that is going to include entitlement reform which we cant walk away from. Bob congressman camp, how do you think tax reform should move through the house . You know the politics of the Freedom Caucus and difficulties that health care presented. How do you think they are going to go about it . You mentioned the trum is onboard. Leaderships onboard. Which wasnt the case when you pursued tax reform. Do you think this is going easier or harder than health care . Congressman camp i think its very different than when i first got to congress which is there is a great deference to what the committees and what chairman, what leadership are trying to do. Thats not the case now. Its going to have to be more trant than people were use transparent than people were used to years ago. And engaging member by member. You have to really involve the conference in a large, broad way. I met with many members individually when i was there. 30plus hearings. There is a base of knowledge. There are a lot of new members as well. I think there has to be a real engagement. This is where actually having a very active White House Legislative Affairs team can be very helpful on these kinds of ssues. All players on the field can make a big difference. Very open, transparent, and i think trying to build that consensus, and i think it can be done. Bob do you see the path as usually the house is moves a bill along party lines but that perhaps the senate would be more bipartisan and then they would come in conference . Orrin hatch, the finance committee chairman, wants to do some type of bipartisan bill. Mitch mcconnell probably said it will have to be republican votes only. Congressman camp the house has been sort of taking that mode for quite a while. I still think its important in the house to talk with democrats. I know chairman brady is doing that, to get their ideas and thoughts. They are seeing where the pressure points are. I would expect there will be discussions with democrats. I dont know whether the House Democratic leadership will allow any democrats to vote for the bill. But at least they you want to at least have them a part of the process. I know they have begun some of those discussions. Jared i think for anything to even approach bipartisanship, the tax cuts will have to move closer to something close to at least what i think democrats think of as tax reform. And that involves, again, revenue neutrality is probably too low a bar if you listen to some of what maya sid on the fiscal said on the fiscal accounts. Any tax plan that makes the mnuchin rule will be at least should be unacceptable to democrats. I believe will be unacceptable to most. On growth i just have to amply mayas point because its so essential. You heard the secretary. Hes i have a lot of respect for the work hes trying to do. But you heard him say the tax cut will pay for itself. That is patently false. The tax cut wont pay for itself because no tax cut has ever come anywhere close to paying for itself. Thats not the same thing as saying the tax cuts can never have any growth impacts. But the growth impacts they have, which by the way are uncertain, i can show you evidence of tax cuts that were negative in terms of growth, they are dim must, there are a couple tenths of a percent at best. And often not sustained. We should really inject a very firm dose of reality into this discussion and wholly discount what i call dynamic scoring abuse. The idea you can you called it magic before. The idea you can make up stories about how what i think is a very large regressive tax cut will pay for itself. Lets agree we can stop pretending on that point. Congressman camp i think you can have dynamic scoring and growing the economy and getting above 2 as opposed to below is huge. It is very important to do that. And what i think it really depends on how you put the package together. And you are obviously able to do tax reform in such a way that the economy grows. And frankly what americans are worried about is that the American Dream is not for them. Because we have had sort of flat growth and flat median income. If you can get tax policy that moves that forward do we have to stick with the static score . Joip to pay for it sefment can a tax cut pay for itself . Congressman camp depends how youdeutch it can . Congressman camp depends how you approach it. I think you can get tax policy joip 2003 tax cut was supposed to drop taxes down to 12. 9 trillion over the next five years instead went up to 13. 3. It raised money from what they said it was going to cost. We cut taxes and the government had more money over that period than they projected without the tax cut. Bob thats the one tax cut that we had recently. Most recently tax cut we had and it completely paid for itself. The idea it never happens is silly. If you look at the reagan years we went from 2 growth for 4 growth for quite some period of time. That was faungs of the spending. The revenue went up. You just said revenue then shifted joip tax cuts do not pay for themselves. Congressman camp if you can also use it for policy issues that maybe democrats might care about or both parties care about, like infrastructure or other kinds of spending. It doesnt have to necessarily be limited to tax policy. Maya i love aed good fight about dynamic scoring. I love a good fight about dynamic scoring. Dynamic scoring clearly has real merit in terms there are policies that have more effects on growth than others. Its useful to making sure bob what do you think potential growth is . Maya what will grow the economy. It will not find the tax cuts will pay for themselves. Tax reform will increase growth by will pay for a fraction. Maybe 20 of a tax cut. It will increase it by Percentage Points not decimals of Percentage Points not full Percentage Points. You want to use dynamic scoring o guide us toward progrowth policies. Just showing that the economy did one thing at the same time you had tax cuts, a correlation is not some kind of academic model that shows they pay for themselves. They dont. Grover first of all, 2003, tax cut what people said was going to happen, what did, on revenue. Your earlier question was on bipartisanship. When clinton raised taxes it was just with democrats, house and senate. When obama raised taxes it was democrats house and senate. When the republicans are now looking to reduce taxes, its very understandable, the modern Democratic Party, there is no member of the house and senate that wont vote for a tax increase and you cant find anyone that will vote for net tax cut. You heard the explanation people on the left dont want tax reduction they want shifting around but not reduction. On the republican side theres no republican who wont vote for a tax cut and they cant find one since 1990 when bush found some who were willing to vote for a tax increase. That has largely ended up. So of all the issues before the country, taxes are the one that is most divide on a partisan basis. Were not a country where the democrats live south of the masondixon line antirepublicans live north. Were now on two sides of the tax fight and so looking for devotes for the tax full is a fools errant. We should always be open to that. Im in favor of getting all the votes possible for the largest tax cut. I would love to have democrat votes for that. I dont any. Bob not even the democrats up for reelection . Grover no the pressure is on them. It is conceivable one or two. If you could you get one or two. To get to 60. After you have already got the votes, could you see one or two might vote that way. I tend to think the pressures from the left are so strong that that wont happen. Maya on bipartisanship, it is congressman camp is right, that dynamic scoring can show you where the growth is on the tax side and the spending side. There is so much talk about could you pray bring together tax reform which will grow the economy and infrastructure, which will grow the economy . Bob mnuchin said no. Maya there are a lot of different players and ideas. There is potential that Something Like that will come together. That could be progrowth but im going to go back to the point if its paid for. Because the devils bargain here is unpaid for tax reform with unpaid for infrastructure, we can increase the debt by twice as much instead of going back to alt findings that tax reform and Infrastructure Spending grow the economy more when they are paid for. I think, grover things the biggest fight in the country is between taxes. I think its people who are willing to make hard choices and people who