The foreign intelligence context, could we be running up against constitutional problems . Yes, absolutely. There are many constitutional issues implicated here. There is obtaining content of peoples communications, which is obviously going to raise Fourth Amendment questions. There is the reasonableness requirement and how that would apply in a National Security setting. And there are not only the rights of u. S. Persons communicating with other u. S. Persons, which has been the primary focus in the statue so far, but there are also constitutional issues raised when a u. S. Person is communicating with a nonus person. Half of that medication is constitutionally protected, of that communication is constitutionally protected, but has not received that kind of attention at all. There are many issues at play. Thank you very much to all of the witnesses. Thanks to the witnesses on this panel and to all of the witnesses on the board that made this possible. You can see the comments related , a transcript will be posted at our website. I moved that the meeting be adjourned. All in favor say aye. It was unanimous. The meeting is adjourned at 4 20 p. M. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2013] him. Like to talk about is the need for compliance you mentioned in your testimony that the complexity that we face with these fires is greater than ever. It is just not your Old Fashioned forest fire. I guess what id like to know is , can you talk about the time that you have spent on the need for compliance, things like that . Thatis the time spent on compliance now as compared to 10 or 15 years ago . Has become an important part of our operating procedure for sure. The environmental clearance process is something that we respect and we will continue to work through, but we need to do better at it. It is not so much the time it as it is theops us litigation that results. Even though that litigation is in the High Percentage of our projects, it can be in some places. With anhave tried to do epa is a couple of things. The objection process which tries to settle issues early and resolve differences before you go into an appeal and litigation. Landscape scale planning so that we can deal on a larger scale and not on individual small projects, but late out a work that makes sense and is consistent with forest plan and is consistent with dnieper and has the except ends of the people that are paying attention to environmental clearance. Rethink both so those will help us get through and get more land treated. A few years ago we had the inuation where we great fail minneapolisst. Paul. The bridge was rebuilt in a matter of a year. There was just unbelievable. Ability, whene you run into situations where you know that there is a possibility of great impact, not to do away with the processes that you have to deal with, not just this, but other things . Do you have the ability to coordinate and expedite so that you dont get yourself in a situation where you have a large fire and then tremendous flooding and things like that . To some extent. Categorical exclusions do help in some situations, but mostly it is those relationships that are built to the objection process. It does not inhibit our Fire Suppression efforts and our actions taken in response to fire. But we do have to hate more attention to it after fire. Studyre was a 2009 gao that recommended to mitigate Fire Suppression. To reduce the needs of transferring funds. Can you talk to us a little bit, 25 seconds worth, about some of the steps that the fire service mitigate funding needs for Fire Suppression . Have a pretty good Predictive Services group. The scientists behind that tell us what that is likely to cost us in a given year based on weather patterns, setting up well in advance of the season in the pacific ocean. Those predictions have been accurate. We have a good idea of that, it is finding the money to deal with those emergencies, those large fire set escape, that really become emergencies and big. That is what we need to probably have more conversation about is how to finance second of suppression. Thank you for your hard work,. Hubbard trade had an opportunity in the days and weeks that followed to perhaps harvest some of the wood before it started to degrade form beatles and fungus. In this case it is easy to see how permitting delays was getting at the time sensitive nature of your work. Permitting delays turned out what could be a profitable into the problem. That is the problem. I understand it is. Blowdown is a problem with salvage after fire. We think within therent legislative current statues that we operate the current statutes that we operate. We would like to work with you to do that. That sounds great, good answer. We were briefed on the cost of the 2012 drought and predictions that we will continue to see more extreme weather due to Climate Change. He testified then as you mentioned today that youre seeing twice as many acres burn each year and seeing seven times as many large fires defined as fires that burn over 10,000 acres as compared to 40 years ago. Even the additional risk that these fires have on communities andce it areas, assisting theas, preventative efforts that event wildlife and property in force today it is . A seat as a challenge, but i think part of the challenge is finding ways of doing more than public, that is with private partnerships, that is thatan epa streamlining, is with picking the priorities and then getting the right people together, so it becomes increasingly important that we picked the right places to apply what resources we have and do what work we can. Has sequestration reduced amount that we can get toward your goal . Sequestrationof did not work to our advantage. It hit us during a. Where we could have accomplished some opportunity work. When that is prescribed fire, youll have a certain window. If you lose that window and you just have to wait. That was unfortunate. We lost some productivity that way and it we will work to gain it back. It was unfortunate for all of us. We cannot do any of the work we were talking about without a forced dash Forest Industry. The Forest Industry exists because of the supply from the federal lands and many of those communities depend on Forest Industry for their economy and their jobs. It is extreme important to us. What do you see as concrete steps we could take in a near term to complete sales and a more timely manner and expedite many of the projects that can get tied up for months and the system of the nepa issues you are raising . I think we would have to have more discussion about that. There are things we would like to propose that we think make some sense. In the meantime, we will continue to press with the objection process and the landscape scale planning so we can get more work ready to go that has an agreement and support from enough of a base we can actually carry it out. I sound like a broken record but its around the idea of the shutdown and sequestration do you see budget uncertainty as impacting some of the private Investment Decisions throughout the fourth Forest Industry from the loggers to the mill operators . I know its such a fragile industry as it is with world demand and things going on with taper paper and the value of the dollar and i sit with her competition with the canadians across the border. Helpful if we stopped the brinksmanship so you could have some certainty for the private industry that we ind so dearly to be involved these parts of our country . And the time i have left, yes it would be. Thank you. With that, we will close the first panel and i want to thank mr. Hubbard, thank you for your testimony. And listen to my colleagues i talk about the budget situation and reflect on the dysfunction of this place, one that would be good is to figure out how to pilot some of these practices rather than wait to figure out how we can do it for the whole country and everybody has their examples. Inbark beetle kill colorado is ours but every state has their own challenges that we look forward to working with you in the future. Give for coming today. To ask thee witnesses on the second panel to make their way forward and be seated. [no audio] the nepa structure and things like that, maybe having a hearing, our infrastructure boxer and, senator others have worked hard to expedite that, not in an effort to do away with things but to make sure that the different groups are talking. Lets think about that and i will talk to senator boxer about that. Welcome to our second panel and thank you for joining us today. We are looking forward to your testimony. We will hold error questions until the final witnesses testimony. Please try to keep your remarks to five and his print your written testimony will be submitted for the record and with that, i am pleased to introduce our first panelist, ccher, he has been involved with the ski area since 19 86. It is a privilege to live in Colorado Springs with his wife. Our next panelist is dr. Chris topic. He restores americas forest program. It improves the ecological management of americas forest for a previous the Committee Professional Staff at the House Appropriations committee for 15 years. He worked for the Forest Service for 16 years. Ecologistss an area for 10 years on National Forests in oregon and washington and received his undergraduate agree from the university of california, san diego, and earned his phd in forest ecology from the university of oregon. Troxel, have mr. Tom he is with the intermountain forest association. He has worked for the Association Since 1989, representing Forest Products companies in colorado, south dakota, and wyoming primarily on issues relating to National Forests, timber programs, and timber sale contract. He received a bachelor of science degree in forest or from the university of montana in 1973 and work for the u. S. Worst service in idaho, montana, and california from 19731989. Last, but certainly not least, we have commissioner sally clark from El Paso County, colorado. Her district encompasses western El Paso County including the southern and western areas. She holds a leadership position in the National Association of counties as their second vice president. She will tell you help pass a county has been hit hard by wildfires and flooding in the past two years predicament he has has shown memorable courage and resilience. They have begun to rebuild from these terrible disasters. Thank you, sally, for being here and thanks to all of you for being here. It is an outstanding panel. I have a little midwestern up eight. Update. South dakota, you said north dakota. For mr. Troxel. Its a midwestern thing. [laughter] its like me confusing colorado and wyoming. [laughter] up . Did i screw that [laughter] all right, i am now pleased to turn to the panel. Take it away. Thank you very much again for being here. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today and share my thoughts ,bout the beetle outbreak ensuing fires, and my perceptions of the u. S. Forest service and their ability to adjust to these changing conditions. Being born and raised in new mexico and colorado as a Second Generation owner and operator of wolf creek ski area, growing up with the Family Business that is entirely on u. S. Forest service land, as well as being an avid outdoorsman and private pilots and has given me a perspective with some relevance. Wolf creek ski area is located on top of will creek pass, between south fork and pagosa springs, colorado. Our family has built it up for the last 40 to be one of the largest employers in the tricounty area with over 400 seasonal and yearround employees and a payroll that has averaged over for money in dollars per year for over a decade. Over 200,000 skiers visit each year, bringing economic stability to the region. Around 2001, with the onslaught of drop drought, it was the perfect breeding ground for the spruce beetle. The Forest Service advises of this plight. As a private business, they could clearly see the impact to our livelihood. We budgeted and began to methodically treat our 1600 acre permit. We used Forest Service specialist guidelines and budgeted about 100 houston dollars per year about 100,000 per year. We removed infested trees. We began to see some signs of the spruce beetle in our surrounding forests and request permission to extend treatment the on their permit is part of a boundary management Fire Protection plan. We were informed by the local Forest Service that there was no mechanism forest regulations to do this emma that it would require administrative funds which were not available but they were being sought and certainly there was a level of frustration expressed by the forest staff about their inability to react given the regulations a work under. By 2011, it was obvious that the spruce hill was overrunning Wolf Creek Pass and the surrounding forest. The number of bugs made our efforts on the permit seem pitiful. It also set the stage for fire. Of 2013, 2 fires broke out and within seven days, the complex was over 90,000 acres and contains. Our ski area was consumed in smoke and flames were licking the edge of our permit, the west fire ran 50,000 acres in three days, the flames were 400600 feet tall and the smoke column topped 30,000 feet. It was entirely possible that the wolf creek ski area was going to be overrun by the fire. We were not without support. Thet Forest Service u. S. Forest service were quick to respond with structure protection and aerial support. Resources were quickly mobilized and the very high level of professionalism was apparent. What struck me was how different the u. S. Forest service performed when operating under rules that allowed Decision Makers to apply resources in what had to be a timely manner. Believed that a paradigm shift in the u. S. Forest Service Policy is needed rather than continuing to only have funds for these reactive moments of fighting fires, Forest Service supervisors should be able to work within a regulatory structure which empowers them to apply funds to mitigate the chances of large overwhelming fires that are becoming more and more common in the west. I believe this can be done without jeopardizing the values at risk which include protecting sensitive areas and watersheds, this is a priority for conservation groups, and makes good sense, identifying and creating fire buffers. The Forest Service should prioritize forest treatments near communities, ski areas, in holdings, highways, and Critical Power lines. This can be done in a variety of ways which include timber removal for local industry, fuel reduction utilized as biofuel, and controlled burns which closes a cycle that the nature has started with the beetle outbreak. In closing, wolf creek ski area has invested 5 million in new lifts and interstructure. We understand we live and work in a dynamic forest in which there will continue to be forest mortality and fire. It does not have to be catastrophic. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much for holding this hearing. Senateeased that the committee on a per culture and forestry getting involved in this issue and i hope you will stay deeply involved. I would also like to closely associate myself with the opening remarks that the chairman and Ranking Member may. You pretty much set my speech. I will try to summarize. I am with the Nature Conservancy and their mission is to conserve the lands and waters upon which life depends britt we have been around for over 60 years and for over 50 years, we have done controlled earns and our staff nearly 100,000 acres of burns and we use science to get involved with on the ground management and our Fire Learning Network has been working for 12 years with communities to build capacity to learn to live with fire. To structuret fires that occurred in the previous decade. The time,is is really like you all have said, to make a big step up and a sizable change in investment. We can do it and we have been hearing about all these upfront investments that need to be done. We know that the upfront investments in forest and committees reduce fire danger, have a tremendous other benefits to improving our Water Quality and quantity and help with jobs in our communities and helping a whole variety of industries. We know that many of the steps that can be done. I hope you have a chance to look at my rather long written testimony with many things in there that are specific. It will take more efficiency but work can happen. 12 years ago, the congress and administration and the states got together with the National Fire plan and steppedup activity dramatically but since then, it has wings so we need to step up. It has waned so we need to step up. Hazardous Fuels Reduction Program is essential. There is no reason why we cannot at least to a 50 increase in these funds. We know these projects work. We have ample evidence for the department of the interior and the Forest Service that these projects have tremendous benefits. To severalference articles give more detail. Another important project that needs to be funded is a collaborative forest landscape restoration project. Is a pilot effort t