And this includes James Meredith, the first africanamerican to be admitted to the university of mississippi. You want to capture the Human Element in the people that are a part of this three weeks civil demonstration balsa to highlight the key figures the leaders including were to mr. King, carmichael and the man whos started toeholds saying James Meredith in to capture all three. Host fantastic. Lets backtrack. The march the you are referring to tell us about the title. Guest down to the crossroads civil rights, black power, and the meredith march against fear it begins in memphis, tennessee tennis three weeks later in jackson. You can say it approaches the crossroads. The call for black power stoically carmichael unveils that slogan halfway through the march that immediately generates a great swelling of enthusiasm and a new direction of black policy. Those changes might have happened over a course of time anyway but it traumatized because it brought together civilrights leaders white and black to put them into a laboratory of black politics it created a dramatic moments of the keys strakes that has long been animated the Civilrights Movement. Host was dramatizing them march people of my generation especially black people our parents will say we march then retes them behind their back because they always complain about the bunions they got but take us there. Dramatize the march for people that were not there first tee of what was it like . To adjust the pure physical act one of the marchers talk about the status symbol of ventilated tennis shoes that they walked so many miles there were holes in their shoes. Talking about mississippi on the hot open highway just the physical rigor to be a part of the march somewhere between eight or 15 miles in a day. Some people did for most of the three weeks but just the physical aspect it could be quite rigorous genomics with camping at night, dealing with the fears of possible attacks from whites, the men the demonstrations along the way, rallies before Voter Registration and then some violence. Especially in mississippi. Then you have whole host of dramatic moments. Host with these traumatic moments people are familiar with the march that ended on the bridge but this in particular how did it begin . Guest it is a unique story if begins in the mind of James Meredith. He was famous for integrating the university of mississippi 1962 with the ole miss crisis the first africanamerican to attend the white bastion of privilege prompted a federal constitutional crisis to ultimately call in the National Guard. A great try it and two people died and meredith spend one year at ole miss before he graduated in incredible isolation and under constant protection of federal marshals. Much of that began as a very singular individual man. But he was very determined to as an institution of White Supremacy. But after ole miss he drifts off the radar and struggles to find his place he is in washington d. C. , except say fellowship to nigeria he abandons after one year but he has his eye on a larger political career. He envisions the march as a single man. He sees it to encourage people to register if it was starting to use to delay mass Voter Registration but for the average person they realize going to the courthouse to vote and could be accompanied by serious danger, loss of credit. The other aspect of the goal was what he called a walk against freer with Voter Registration tied into the battle. Also a personal ambition to resuscitate his career to run for office. On this second day of the of march the first round he gets a nice warm reception to encourage them a and tell stories of africanamerican men that were so intimidated better now standing up but they still support meredith. Just beginning to achieve his personal vision. Then he continues his walk in there are mississippis state policeman local police , but none of them stop the man from jumping out of the woods to fire three shots covering whispered shot. Meredith is wounded it becomes a Huge National story. It had gotten a little bit of attention but as soon as he was shot the image was plastered on the front page and reaches International Waters and then was prompted to pass more civil rights wrote legislation. It causes all sorts of excitement and tension jackson and memphis. What began as one mans walk where basically every major Civil Rights Organization is determined to carry out James Meredith walk. Host what had inspired them before . What was the difference . Guest originally it was a solitary endeavor. He did not invite civilrights organizations to be part of the patriarch you and you have to be independent. We will not try to leave people vulnerable to violence. Moving in small groups that is the only way it will work. Once the naacp the and all the organizations come it is like a chance to replicate the success of selma the previous year. Host self there is did not die . Guest he was wounded. There was day misinterpretations the ap put out a bulletin that he died that caused even more hysteria but quickly that was dispelled. He recuperated through most of the march he was in new york. These people were marching in his name and he excepts that is occurring at the same time for those three weeks he is frustrated he is centered around him as individual with his idea for how to combat supremacy now getting Media Attention that meredith was concerned about. Part of what i like about this book are the personalities of reaching these steeped in history but besides meredith that are stoically carmichael Stokely Carmichael and martin mr. King. Guest there the three central characters. For carmichael he sees this as a unique opportunity as the chairman of sncc that is a progressive vanguard. Said reese started to question tuesday are as an organization. But what they see as a slow pace with the civilrights active voter rights act has passed and not enforced. They say it is on the books. Now they say they are reluctant. They dont care anymore about lobbying White America or appealing to the National Conscience but much more concerned developing leaders on a local scale. Theyre not defined by the idea of a mass march but when meredith is shot they recognize the opportunity because sncc has done the most organizing in mississippi so with some of the largest black communities where sncc has made its name with local connections. With that moving grassroots organizing as part of black power and carmichael but it is what catapults by the end of the march he is the heir to malcolm x. The voice of black radicalism as a charismatic speaker he has a gift to talk to local people and a connecting to so many different audiences whether in a harlem or the mississippi delta. He is charismatic and powerful and provocative. Almost like he makes the rhetorical point even when pushed and pushed almost cleverly stubborn with uplifting black people in not being seen with of certain allies. That is the idea of black power that Martin Luther king becomes of moral center. Without him it is not the march it is his name and presence that draws people both the local people sometimes people just want to see martin mr. King but it is also what draws more federal attention and national Media Attention and sncc realizes this march does not mean anything for the attention that we want to generate. King is constantly pushing multiple directions it is revealed it is morally powerful because he tries to articulate to people like Stokely Carmichael but crafted into a larger language of nonviolent action id integration of america and to do so with a rhetorical gifts to merge these messages in it is the burden by the end of the march he is worn down. But by this same token without him. Host why do they call it a mistake . It is to the end of the march as he has gone to extraordinary trials. The marchers had just gotten to philadelphia. June 24 june 21st exactly two years later the anniversary of the of murder of three civilrights workers. So to commemorate those murders and lead a demonstration they see this as a unique political opportunity and day ally with leadership. But they get less protection from the state police. Those who are supposed to be protecting them are the local police. Some had been directly involved or under federal investigation for those murders so it was not sympathetic Law Enforcement. So they are attacked by a mob. People throw things and hurled themselves commentary bombs, and people think it is gunshots. As they finish the rally people throw rocks. Eggs, one marcher has the epileptic seizure and they dont let of medical truck near him and they locked him. A stressful situation that could have descended into far worse but luckily they could march back to the black community before it got much worse. He said later that was the most feared he had never been. Then right after that he has to go to yazoo city back where the marchers had congregated. There was a large rally for black power. Some of the speakers from sncc or the armed selfdefense organization were using very provocative rhetoric and king was trying to pull it back. He gave a beautiful speech how they could not get their guns or molotov cocktails because he had a bigger version. But he was so worn down at that point to bring it underwrote everyone under his arm he wondered if he could still work with these organizations like sncc. Host what was the other dramatic tension or several moments during the march besides philadelphia . Guest the other major incidents of violence was a few days later in mississippi before the end of the march. A few days after the philadelphia march. King and others petitioned the federal government to the states of mississippi is adequately protecting us we need federal protection of u. S. Marshals, justice department, National Guard you name it. They were essentially ignored by president johnson. He had grown alienated from the Civilrights Movement you see urban riots, what, a controversy over a government report and there was day black backlash and you see groups like sncc sova johnson is increasingly kept his distance. So he refuses to have any more federal prisons. That gives the governor of mississippi to use Carte Blanche of violence he was using state police but now with the end he knows there is no federal intervention. They have made a point to set up the big tent on land of the black community. Black people pay taxes to. We have a right to use this land. But in many places the local authorities said they cannot do it any way. But the police let it happen so it would not escalate. But at this point it is close to the and there is 1,000 people participating. They come to the ball field of the Elementary School where they decided they would put the tents even though Police Arrested the indians grew. At first they let them do it then the huge contingent of cars of Highway Patrol supposedly that are protecting them now come out with riot gear and launch teargas. Not as crowd control to push people off but they are launching directly into the crowd to punish them. Then they moved their way in and hitting people with night sticks and pulling hair and kicking them it is absolute chaos. It is practically dark at that point it was as harrowing violence that existed within the movement but because it is dark and smoky there are no real Iconic Images it does not get the support of the federal government because even after that they say were sorry but we dont promise any more retribution to the state so they disappear from popular in every. Memory. Host that is fascinating bringing me back to the cover how images make history and what does not get lost. But first want to talk about white people. We know what you describe about Law Enforcement the culturally johnny cash, and jerry lee lewis, elvis is on the scene. What is going on at this time . Hour they responding to this particular march and the Civilrights Movement . Guest for the liberal rights it triggers another round of outrage of jim crow south seen as an example of violent retribution and people right to their congressman. Editorials in the newspaper condemning violence, they sympathize with James Meredith some of the documents talking about their own ideas asking for a vice there was this great liberal guilt. At least since the sitin has been a major news story over the past 56 years. It continues the trend but because of that because of the of what striate watts riots starting to develop as a buzzword that some whites are alienated that blacks are moving too fast it should not achieve that but it should slow down the that is the exact opposite what others say. There are plenty of white marchers to be part of the conscience with the Catholic Church or Jewish Americans and longtime activists. Those that was their own the experience for something day have to be a part of. It is impossible to characterize with a huge swath of people you see everything with a response to those that embrace the notion there are civil rights activists to say we have been fighting for black power all along. Others say were starting to do drift away from the ideals of the nonviolent action to bring them together. Stokely carmichael says integration is irrelevant they need to achieve power and strength. Then you have a growing voice of the new right they see the Movement Moving too fast expansion of liberal programs. The political mood that will help to elect nixon two years later just like what elected reagan to the governorship of california at the same time. Host fascinating glimpses of the mindset of the conservative right to allow the backlash. We deal with that with illegal aliens or obamacare to help elected nationally off the back of the order was racially driven backlash. Before we go to break what inspired you to write his break with all the episodes of post world war American History . Kits grew out of teaching. I have written books before a of russells of basketball player but not a civilrights political history but at the university of memphis the graduate seminars to be the perspectives to broaden the understanding what it was other than and Martin Luther king or one demonstration. By this same token there was not a book that was the narrative history that captured all these ideas. So i saw it as a great opportunity to tell a much broader story. It is narrowed to follow a march from a this do jackson but it shoots off in so many Different Directions that tells us what it was. But i saw that as a key way touche tell the story. A friend of mine called me from new york about seven years ago and said i want to read a book about civil rights. What should i read . It was a hard question. Biography, a textbook but no one book that did what i thought what the only person would want to read so this book is my answer to his question. Host that is brilliant. My favorite quotation is always write the book you would have liked to have read. We will be back. Host i want to ask you about the title down to the crossroads as a physical place but also symbolic in history. How does this march marked a historical crossroads . Guest of the march you could argue is a crossroads for the Civilrights Movement that closely still associated with the tenets of nonviolence and racial integration. Underneath that to with the grassroots organizers said the Civilrights Movement that put them in positions of power where they can lift themselves up. They are not necessarily the same thing. It is a crossroads with the slogan of black power it gives them a name and the idea to crystallize and black power is an outgrowth and rejecting some. It grows out of the Civilrights Movement that these are activists for blacks to achieve political power. It grows out of frustrations of the federal government with liberal allies to dont necessarily see them so sound the same page. But it also grows out of disenchantment in the rejection of violence as a strategy. But asserting their right to choose selfdefense to be seen as equal in society you should have the right to defend yourself also a rejection of integration working with parties. Stokely carmichael comes to the march having organized in alabama as the independent third party because the choices were not integrated into republican in democratic was White Supremacy already. So why integrate into a party that is hostile to your interest . He said organize your own party. Wherever there is black majority for the mississippi delta organize. Use that political power as the independent force. Host the chicken and the day here is the march with Stokely Carmichael this is a platform to amplify the black power message or he was so frustrated with the march that it was the message . Guest he came to the march with the message even with the slogan of black power. Soon after the shooting of meredith he goes back to sncc headquarters to tell the governing body why they should participate in the march. With his arguments it gives a platform to advertise our direction of black power and uses the slogan black power even before but he does not use it as a slogan. What do we want . Black power. What do we want . Black power. Sncc was organizing dating back to the 60s there were events organizers who said this is the best place to use a slogan and when black power is used in that way it immediately becomes a controversy you ask many africanamericans they remember tha