The public is greater now than ever before. Traffic light cameras, drawn monitoring and more amounts to a police state that must be rolled back. This program is about an hour. Host cheryl, its a pleasure to be here with you today and i really enjoyed reading your book police state usa. I am a data junkie by nature and i just love the opportunity to talk with people about how to protect their data. We have got so many modernday privacy issues that are coming up and what i love about what you do with the book, its so well researched and so thoughtful and so provoking and im really excited to talk with you today and have a conversation about what do people need to know and is there actually anything we can do about it . I think you gave me a little bit of hope here in the book. One of the things that i thought was really interesting with the nsa revelations and i wrote a little bit about that in my book privacy in the age of big data, was how consumers didnt realize businesses collect a lot of data back then so their cooperation by bucolic cooperation or coercion im not sure what the nsa. Was that what sort of compelled you to write the book or were there other driving forces that you thought i have just got to write this book. Ive got to inform people. Tell me a little bit about that. Guest first off thank you so much for having me today. Its a pleasure to speak with you and im glad to hear that you enjoy the book. To answer your question was really other factors that drove me. I have been in recording reporting for a good 15 years and like most reporters i started on the local level. Covering the local level of government you really get handson experience on how policies and regulations impact the average american. I remember years ago covering county government and watching people who had purchased properties with the hopes of building their dream homes on it, coming to the local permitting and zoning offices and request the right to build their house on their properties. A certain county that i covered it was almost like it was environmentalist ground zero battleground. It was so driven by environmental regulation and policy. They didnt want to build anything and i recall vividly of his family came in with hopes to build on a 500,000dollar parcel of property they had purchased and the local zoning people denied them repeatedly to the point that they had no repeals left. And i remember meeting the woman in particular in tears because now what is she going to do with that property . I was always tuned into issues like that. American and constitution is a big deal. I read it just for fun sometimes and so i was always kind of laser den on issues like that. Covering the local government issues is what really drove me. That in having four children and i worry about the fate of america and the future we are leaving them. Host you bring up the children and you are absolutely right. Its almost as if with what the Founding Fathers five so hard for through . And choices as some choices we dont even know we are making in those freedoms. What i love that you have done in the book is quoted the Founding Fathers before each chapter and when you read the quote it really does relate to the chapter. So it shows that the principles of the Founding Fathers the constitution and what this country was founded on even though the Technology May change the principle stay the same. Tesco is kind of like the bible. If you are a Christian Christian or a believer the basic principles dont change. Its not a living breathing document as al gore would intend it as he states and a lot of politicians nowadays regarded. There are certain Core Principles and to me the biggest founding father gift was the notion that our rights come from god and not government. If you think about that, its a very powerful principle and one that i fear is slipping a way leading to the Police States ideal state that we have right now. My biggest concern is recapturing that because once you were shirt recaptured you set the nation on the path of the Founding Fathers intended. Host in the book one of the things that was interesting as you talk about the places where you may not even know you are being tracked. For example mannequins. My coauthor and i talked about the same mannequins you mentioned in your book and one of the things people might not realize when you drive up to the Shopping Mall and if there is surveillance going on your license plate may be photographed. Then you walk into a Department Store. Your phone is talking to the wifi in the Department Store. Bingo, now the store knows you are there and the next piece is the mannequins are actually watching you and trying to decide female or male gender. They may even try to decide ethnicity all to store the database against a Service Better. But then you added that there is new technology coming out and this is why im sure people say are you kidding me class they are going to be adding listening features to these mannequins. Talk to us about some of the risks and concerns and what was on how moment for you when you saw this was going on for the local Department Stores in europe and america. Guest the ahha ahha moment is when it crosses the line from stores posting notices and cameras being displayed in prominent places so shoppers are aware that they are being recorded to the point where you have no idea if the shopper your movements and conversations are being recorded and for what reason you dont know. Some of the technology that they have in place now as you pointed out with the mannequins have moved from cameras in the eyes to recording devices planted in the heads of the mannequins and the cited reason for that is because the stores want to know shoppers discussions to hear what they say about some of the products that they display in their stores. That way they can gauge what are the best sellers, what things need to be moved off the shelves to make room for Something Else. The problem with this of course is most shoppers dont know when you walk into a story its not like the signs say this dummy is recording you. You dont know that and thats a little bit creepy i think. Its something in a sciencefiction movie. Its interesting that when its happening in real life its a little bit alarming. Host it is and its one of those things i dont remember walking into a store and hand having them handmade disclosure statement saying by the way you are not only being photographed for security reasons but i want to know what you are looking at and second of all im going to snoop in on your private conversations. I think thats one thing people needed to be really aware of. Whats interesting too is i think sometimes you are profiting in this thirst for date of this insatiable appetite for data which helps them know their custom of the dash customer better and their Customer Loyalty to stock things in the store i want and also to drive revenue. I think at what price. We know all technology is hackable. We have seen the best and brightest get hacked into and that data in the wrong hands could be potentially dangerous. I think as we learned when it comes to comment the private sector has the data then Law Enforcement may want to request access to that data as well. Could you see things kind of progressing that way whether his recorded conversations or photographs while people are shopping. Guest that is the big fear. First and foremost in the private field when you are a shopper, you should at the least be given a heads up to what information is being collected on you. Most people know about their zip codes and so forth but cameras that are hidden. They also have new technology that pings on your iphone. If you are a repeat shopper, if you are a big spender at things so it alerts the store clerks that hey there were big spenders here. Lets swarm on him or her and get him or her to buy more. Its things like that but shoppers may push a the convenience but not knowing you are not given the choice whether to participate in that or not. The other side of the equation is you have to think when stores are collecting data theres a database somewhere thats being kept. Its not just data floating around there. Theres actually some sort of database where your information is sitting and if Law Enforcement or government surveillance intel and so forth ever cite the justification to tap into that data you have to be aware is an american you dont have any control on that data being handed over. Host exactly, so i like to think we are still innocent until Proven Guilty especially if we are minding her own business. Lets stay on that topic of facial recognition because you mention in the book, you talk a little bit about how Law Enforcement is using facial recognition and how a lot of states, not just a few, a lot of states at the dmv theres a boat is going on while you are doing your license renewal. They are asking you in some cases not to smile and the reason being is your photograph now has a dual purpose. Its not just about your drivers license anymore. Guest all this data is being fed in some instances and tuesday data centers and oftentimes maybe people know them better as Fusion Centers but a lot of it is data being collected for counterterrorism reasons. Because counterterrorism intel at these data centers isnt generally what people expect them to be is also being used for Law Enforcement to go fight crime. When you are at your dmv and you are not smiling into the camera because they tell you not do you need to be aware that this is yet another form of Data Collection and you should be concerned or it at least curious where its going to end up. Host we also need to think about the choices we make so the dmv we dont have a choice. You need to get your license. You need to go to your state governor and say you dont like your state dmv practice perhaps. You dont have a choice but you do have a choice on the types of pictures that are put out on the internet on social media. Thats one of those important things that i think consumers need to realize that you can take a little bit of your privacy back. Maybe dmv you have to go to used a process to make sure your voice is heard but where you post photos of yourself and what you choose to post and going with those photos and what is accompanying you in the photos can be just as important as well. Thats something you oftentimes can control. Lets go into the banks. We talked to little bit about how theres some technologies now where as consumers we dont remember being given a disclosure saying here is how im going to use your data, thank you very much. We dont even know the listening or photographing is going on. What i liked about what you talked about what the banks is the struggle you have in the modern age. I remember when i first started thinking i could not believe that we couldnt call on our own customers. I was on the Technology Side doing the platform for marketing and they said the first thing we have to do is we have to see which of our customers opted in for marketing. I said from us or from somebody else . They said from us. We are not allowed to market to earn customers unless they often and we have to provide disclosure statements of the banks of vice head care that if i collect data about you i had to disclose what im going to do with it and i also have to protect it. I know that and i have this duty of care. Whats inch thing is think a lot of people dont realize how much the banks are told to cough up your data and its not necessarily in this disclosure statement. So now if you make a deposit over 10,000 because of the antimoney laundering and potential suspicious transactions the bank has to report you now matter how innocent and how great a customer you are. They must report their transaction. They also have to report when you were signing up for credit, they have to ask more questions than they would normally ask because they truly know you. They have to actually prove to bureaus within the government that they truly did their customer Due Diligence on you. Talk a little bit about some of your findings where you were doing research on the banks and some of the things the banks are being told they have to collect about you and literally turn around and handed over to other departments and agencies. Guest well, you rightly described exactly whats going on with the banks. They are kind of being put in a crunch. On one hand the federal government is bearing down on banks for counterterrorism reasons and so forth. You must collect information on your customers. You must know them but on the other hand the federal government isnt really getting isnt really giving banks a checklist of questions to ask. And if banks dont ask the proper questions and something into being the customer is doing is illegal the banks could actually be fined for that. The banks are kind of in a tight spot right now. As a customer going into a bank i remember back when i first started banking, banks used to draw you into giving you for a free toaster or signup and you get something free. All that friendly neighborhood banking relationship is gone. Now when you go and banks want to know more than just your name, Social Security number, date of birth and so forth. They want to know sometimes where you work, where you do business, where your business that you work it does business and that the business you work at does business in an overseas location they may pry into that. The reason is they are trying to do their Due Diligence to keep the feds off their backs basically. What is happening as the average american is feeling like they are suspected of a crime when all they are trying to do is open up a bank account. Host you are right, as you start going to the laundry list of what they have to ask you almost think are you trying to marry me or just helping or or just helping me open account to deposit my money . This is kind of the third degree you are putting me through here. You are a mom and i am a mom. You talk about this in the book. I talked about in my book how parents really need to understand when you put your children in the care of others what may be going on in the name of security or in the name of tracking for your kids. As it relates to the schools, you are looking at things like we are going to record all of their grades on line. We just saw a young man to his friends, some of them paid him to change their grades and he went in there and changed his own. He has been busted for it. He got caught and got busted that we can see sort of the dangers with that. Somebody might say gosh thats really kind of high school hijinks. He should not have done that and he was wrong. He will pay the price but no harm no foul. Okay but then theres the enter the other piece about the data being collect of our children in the name of security. One of the things you write in the book is the irs scanning solutions being used in schools now and in some regards is touted as this is a great way to make sure your child gets on the right bus and to notify you if your kid gets on the wrong bus. What happens to a volunteer standing there saying good morning susie, good morning joanie. Just because technology can do it doesnt mean you should. You talk about the iris scanning thats going on. Talk about when you were researching this. What were some of the privacy concerns that you felt like people dont really know about this and they need to know. What were some of the things you thought i have to cover this in the book lacks. Guest the Biggest Issue for me was not telling the parents. The issue that you are referring to happen in florida. This was just in 2013 i believe. There was a bus that implemented an iris scanning program. The parents did not know about it so when the child would board the bus they were told to stare into the iris scanning machine until the light turns blue. What was supposed to have happened was that data, he is into Information School had on the parents residence in their home address and it sends an alert that your child is on the bus on their way home. Unfortunately, that school ended up being, the parents ended up being outraged about the school did because the person who was supposed to send a notification home to let them know that your child is going to be iris scanned, the person was sick the day the letter was supposed to go out. So all these kids were scanned on the bus. These are little kids. It was like the first, second and third grade. Host they are taught to respect authority. Guest thats right so they dont know they dont now and the parents were outraged and rightly so. The school stopped doing that program but what shocked me was the fact that this could go on. Any school would think first out that this is technology thats necessary and Second Technology where parents dont need to give input and be given the opportunity to say yea or nay to it before its implemented. Also what shocked me was finding out that stuff like this is going on with fair regularity around america right now. Its not so much few and far inbetween cases as they are emerging technology and its becoming a lot more abundant in our schools. Host do you feel like sometimes the hard part is the argument is this is in the name of security or convenience. That was also Something Else you mentioned, whether its paying for School Lunches or again getting kids on the right bus versus the wrong bus which i survived getting on and off buses. I dont know about you, without scanning my iris or turning over my dna to anybody. I see the danger of people saying its about security. Parents are busy. Lets say the notification went out and some of these other schools or using it and maybe people think oh wow thats great my school is implementing the latest and greatest technology to protect my children and they are just not thinking about if all technology is hackable and this company who i dont know, its not my school, its an outsource, has my child i scanned. If somebody steals my child i scanned my kids cant get a new eye. They can get a new iris scan. Now they can go masquerading as my child w