We talked about a lot of things in the buck with one o book bute biggest things i got out of the book is the feds are always taking the cases and youve explained that a lot so thats something i took away from the book that they are not always taking down these cases and they actually do some work so that just get right into it, but i truly believe every cop should have this book. It probably works for the Business World also because you talk about integrity and its a big issue all around but especially with police because we have a lot of power and we are around money and drugs and corruption so this is a great book for regular citizens and cops. Its the second best book ive read this year. In the prologue in the beginning you talk about this case where you were detained. This young thug as you described takes him in to get the money or whatever it was. What would you classify as a younger thug and it doesnt have to be racial conscious that his term that is commonly used. In this particular case the individual was the muscle and he controlled the entry and exit from this building, so instead of being a regular security person, he was making sure the police were not getting anywhere near the apartment where as the sole other people were coming to steal from the drug dealers. Something interesting view state in the buck bad cops are seldom bad just once. Please explain. Guest theres the slippery slope theory which is the premise if you do something wrong and its minor it will gradually grow into something more serious. When someone make say decision to use crime as a Police Officer when we catch them at the very first time theyve been involved. What i would like to say and im sure you will echo this is the majority of the officers indicated hardworking men and womewomen giving them of the toughest jobs in the country, good people, but its that small percentage of less than one half of 1 who are corrupt bad cops. Its about that steals the headlines away from the good cops. Host you talked about that and we will get back to that. But how often did internal affairs turn cops from regular cops became criminals and how often did they flip because i know they dont want to rat out the cops but you are catching those that actually committed some serious crimes. How often would they slip to rat out other cops . Guest it doesnt happen as often as it should work good but it does happen from time to time and it has to do with how often the officer often times the one i gets arrested they are the first one willing to talk, so we use every method we can, good solid investigation technique is like using bad cops as our agents and informants but it doesnt happen as often as it could but it does happen. Host you did a 41 years. 41 years. You know im only 38. [laughter] early in your career or wha whai gathered out of the book is you were straight as an arrow right from the top. One particular case when you and your partner were chasing a younger kid that youv you caugm leaving with a bag and youve got all this equipment, your guns and fast and it was a young kid. They were ready to shoot him pretty much in the back to you stopped your partner and said we cant do that. This is in the 70s where there was corruption everywhere, how did you feel after you did that . Guest there was no justification for using that level of force on that young man. He was out running us. Good for him, we will get him eventually, but i couldnt allow him to be shot running away from us. He runs to an abandoned building. He had a garbage bag full of supplies, nothing expensive, brushes, cosmetics, things of that nature. He was a young man running very fast. We were eventually able to catch him in the building trying to hide under some degree under a broken door. Host you know most want to fit in, they dont want to rock the boat. When i read the book it was very strange in my career but there was an image people thought i was doing that. Im reading your book like one of the funniest parts of your book, the cup of tea that you paid 10 for. Guest it was 1 dollar. Let me step this up. When this happens i walked for myself tea for myself and coffee for my partner. I didnt have any change but the man was adamant so i left a dollar. And it became a joke at the precinct. The book is just so authentic and all the stories i can relate to. There is an amount of distrust and this goes back to something you were saying. Your estimation is less than 1 of cops are bad. Explain a little for the people that are watching. Guest 41 years i saw acts of courage, bravery, integrity, but theres always the small number that keeps you up at night. When i was a commander everyone knew the person or maybe two you didnt trust and the other officer didnt trust him more her either so what i did when i went to affairs as they brought the officers on board and we would meet on a regular basis and i would ask them questions like who in your command argue a little concerned about, who keeps you up at night. We will do an investigation for you, im sure you will want to talk about that later. We are going to put a case on your command so some of them are worried. They will think im not getting a good job, but we always told them if you work with us you will come out of this looking well and not being criticized so i always looked for that person and the other cops are willing to tell you if you are willing to listen to to stay with and who they dont want to work wi with. Thats why the case really bothered me that we will talk about that later. Everybody knew who the hothead is. You have to be able to come forward. It wasnt easy for me in the beginning. My reputation is that i wasnt a bad cop. So they came to me and said tell us what really happened so thats good if you have a reputation on the day will listen to your side of the story. They may not believe you but they give you an opportunity to talk. Host a dramatic decrease in crime and the nypd takes above credit and rightfully so. I was seeing the change from 42nd street to what it is today. You dramatically drop corrupti corruption. I have to give you the credit and from reading the book you really did. Do you think there is a direct correlation between the dropping corruption to the decreasing crime, that is something i think about when im reading your book. Guest the truth of the matter is when we were starting the internal affairs bureau, we looked and saw that for the most part internal affairs around the world was conducted very reactively. A citizen makes a complaint and resources are put through to investigate that complains that it had little effect on corruption and the level of complaints we were getting so we changed our focus. We were always reactive and take complaints from anyone but to be effective, we needed to be proactive, and i think that is what sets us apar set us apart r Police Department and also was responsible for the reduction in corruption. Im not ready to take reduction for the corruption and crime. I would like to put it where i think it belongs. We like to stand up and say it is our policies and procedures. Host we got close to the community and people give us more information, but it definitely goes to the nypd. 1970 you are working in brownsville. Lets think about this was one of the most violent places in the city. Fastforward now 40 years later it encompasses brownsville and as we sit here today, my estimation is it is the most violent place in the city of new york. I truly believe that. When do you think the Police Department is actually going to raid the place of crime . I worked there a number of years and there were so many good honest people there that i tried to help the best i could. Its just a matter of time. They are going to make the changes with the Police Department and which government decides to turn the place around. Good, great. I had the same experience with jamaica i didnt do what you did, but what stood out to me as relationships are everything. So if you build relationships you are doing the right thing. Because of the relationship you have i gather you treated them with respect. We couldnt have been as accommodating as we wanted to be. Host you describe what everybody really talked about. Guest it was a chaotic scene and all he wanted was to go to the bathroom and have a drink of water. How can i deny someone that . Host a lot of cops would deny someone go to the bathroom. I was happy to have you say the hook is alive and well. Basically if you know somebody they will be able to put you in places. If i were at mcdonalds and i was a ceo and my nephew wanted a job i wouldnt put him on french phrase i woulfrenchfries i woulm to be a manager. The hook is people who know Police Officers and sometimes they steeresometimestastier that direction and put them in a more favorable command where it is easier to commute back and for forth, better suited for a younger officer. Its not where you sent him from staten island. Theres something called highway therapy. Host you talk about something that bothers you. Basically it is a lawsuit against the city of new york, the Police Department and they say lets just settle this lawsuit and you cant speak about it. Remember 1997. Minorities were being severely punished and cases of disciplinary action. Do you think that was hush money . Guest if you have done something wrong you have to make amends. My mother told me that when i was a child but if you are right you need to defend ourselves and fight and in a lot of the cases they will say they do a cost analysis we ca weekend win but l cost 100,000 in legal fees that are but if we give the person 10,000, they will go away. I think that just encourages more lawsuits. People will say our case isnt strong. Our taste may not even be winnable but maybe they will give us go away money. Weve made money. At thof money. The city says weg wrong, the individual says we did nothing wrong but they are uncovering lawsuits and if you are right then you need to stand up and fight. Host . You speak about mike dow and i believe you say to you believe there were others out there at the time . Guest its hard for me to believe that he was the only person that was robbing drug dealers and everything way back then. It had to be. Host but why dont you think the Police Department went after these guys . Guest back then you had the internal Affairs Division and they were geared to handle systemic corruption in the Police Department, a very reactive approach. Corruption mutates and i have seen it go from systemic, opportunistic to now familiar. Thats the most difficult to detect and prosecute so as corruption was mutating from the systemic corruption it means it goes up and down the entire organization and you find a ladder lee and vertically in the organization. That was basically eliminated and today im very happy to say i saw my time and no signs of systemic corruption. But people take advantage of opportunities. That is more difficult to investigate if you go into being reactive and the oldest affairs didnt grow, didnt evolve as corruption was mutating. They tried to do the old things over and over again and they were ineffective. Corruption was about to fluoresce because they didnt do that correctly. Host basically they stuck this right down your throat and said it doesnt matter. When the boss tells you that you have to go somewhere, if you say anything else you will probably just be stagnated. They are drafted, you can no longer volunteer to become a member. You are drafted. We would look at the most talented people, people that have proven themselves at a youth department. They were cowards afraid to be real costs so they went and hid or people were caught doing bad things so in exchange for leniency they would read out other cops or people that try to change the world but they dont know how they just know they have to change the world. Thats what the cops believed so we got together and we were putting the bureau together and said we cant let people volunteer. We have to change that and make it a draft. We said it should be a minimum of a twoyear commitment. Looking back now i would probably make it a threeyear commitment because by the time i had them at top speed they were looking to move on. But it changed the perception. They were respected members of the department and they could go back into policing and be accepted by the rankandfile Police Officers. Host i know they came in kicking and screaming but after while they had a no choice. Do you think that they should be officers or lawenforcement experience . Guess a only one or two are substantiated. So most of them are just investigators graduating they dont have any experience. Do you believe someone they investigated host the investigators were seasoned detectives and police personnel. The managers of the case and the review board were also prominent members of the community and the balance worked well when they decided to completely civilian eyes at they had wellmeaning people that didnt understand police work anpolicework and tha detriment to them. Host some that come back have decisions. I have a partner that was in the original street crime and had like 350 arrests. You wrote i know hes a cop because the more arrests you make the higher probability you have with civilian complaint which i dont necessarily agree with because he had no complaints and was one of the finest officers to work with. The possibility grows that someone will not like the way that you perform your duties. Host s talk abou host asked about a little bit of controversy, something that really bothers you. My partner, his father in first grade was in homicide and he said he never saw anything like that career. All the veterans were like know this could not have happened. You mentioned they never should have been assigned to the unit in the first place. You talk about it in great detail. The defense lawyer was breaking it down and within an hour i knew it was going to be incredible because it isnt 40 shots, its shot number one this was the trajectory trajectory cs with his partner was seeing a. You broke it down but i didnt see is they built up a unit to three times. The commander left and it lowered the standards. There were no civilian complains and here on the snipers were cops, three of them have shooters, all of them but one had civilian complains. Do you think lowering the standards caused this shooting were contributed . Guest i wouldnt say the lower this to her is a but maybe we should have looked at it before we had them working with more experienced officers. Perhaps we went a little fast and could have done more to. But here we have an innocent man who did nothing wrong, terrible tragedy but i point out in the book when the day is over we had five wives and five families changed forever and not for the good. Guest you said as a young cop you never used Excessive Force for an arrest. That stood out to me because my question was what you reported . Reported . Guest if i saw people using Excessive Force, i stopp stopped. Im using the names of my friends. Mostly. Loosely. I reported them to the supervisors. Host im glad we had this interview so you could clarify. Guest i told the sergeant this person was going to be a problem and he was fired for the acts i knew he was doing. Host i have two guys cuffed and they started beating up on him. But thats what standup cops do, youve got to bring it forward. Why do you think that they didnt fire him . Guest the cases are very similar. The decisions are entirely different. I think they were both tragic mistakes. The problem in the second case is because they didnt report it quickly it was information they didnt believe they had hit anyone but they didnt want to report the accidental discharge until they found out if the man was shot and then they made the report. So he called it from the very beginning. There was i accidentally fired my gun but nobody was hurt lets not tell anybody about this but then the man was hurt so they had no choice. They should have went forward in the beginning. Unfortunately the man was shot and killed. Host you write in the book about the chokehold. Do you not believe it was a choke hold . Guest remember this case came in after i was gone. I didnt investigate the case. All i have is with the general public has come of the videos they show on television. There were several videos that never made it to television. Since i was gone i wasnt really proceed to them. Sometimes they called it a half nelson and it wasnt a regular chokehold. The arm comes under the officer and its not a choke hold and the one i prosecuted in the case of was a clear chokehold. Host lets talk about the scandal, a book in itself. Pretty much paying drug dealers were crackheads with money until you find out about the whole case and what you and i knew that the public doesnt know the top three commanders remained in their duties but one is now the Police Commissioner in the city of new york. Guest when we did the case there was no information whatsoever. Host as an executive pretty much you are holding the bag if you are the boss and something goes wrong. Host they believe commissioner oneal paid the debt for the case and is coming back. I just want to put that out there. If you are a commander, youve are given another opportunity. If we cant show this is something you should have known, you suffer the consequences. Host you talk about how theres outside entities and the u. S. Attorneys. There were so many people. But you talk about this separate entity as well as the deputy commissioners of trials that disappointed by the commissioner and ccr v. , the mayor appoints five of them so arent they kind of part . Guest they do not take their direction from the policee department and thpolicedepartmel commissioner also appointed when he or she makes the decision of the commission or disagrees, it isnt just a matter of saying i disagree and he has to explain. Host who do you appeal to . Guest you can go to court or federal court. Ththethe commander they woule found guilty in the trial room and Everyone Wants to appeal and the patrol guy is the last word but theres always state and federal court. This is what i was alluding to earlier. I dont know anybody that fought this. Every job i went to it was a tough time. You talk a lot about that case and the word on early on. Why is that the news get it before you . It made the public think that the nypd was trying to hide this thing. Guest heres the problem. I usually write very secretive. And we dont have the opportunity to stand up before a press conference and explain to them what we know happened and believe happened and talk about our investigative steps on the way mainly because we have to bring this case to a grand jury whether it is in a state or federal court and we did it twice first in a state court and then we had to go back and did it again in the federal court. We dont have that opportunity and there is no prosecution in the world i would want his or h