I like it very much. I learned a lot about this book. I learned a lot of things about the polic Police Department i dt know after 21 years. And well talk about a lot of great things in the book but one of the biggest thing i got out of the book was theirs this rumor that the feds are always taken to nypd cases come and you really explained that a lot and so that something that i really took away from your book, that the feds do not always take down these cases in the nypd and internal affairs actually does work. So lets just get right into it. Before we get into it, i really truly believe that every cop should have this book. Not only of the cockpit its probably worth for the business will also because you talk about integrity. Its a big issue all around, especially with police. Police, we have a lot of power. We are around money, around drugs, guns and corruption can be afoot. So this is a great book. Just a regular citizen but that, its the second best book ive read this year. The second best. You probably could guess which one is the best. Guest i think the book you wrote. Host lets just get right into it. Ive a few questions. In the prologue you talk about this case where you guys, the teen, yellow was following this guy, a copier he was dirty. He was going to make a pickup up in Washington Heights and when he gets to wash tonight, he has a bag. This young thug as you describe drives him to take me to get the money or whatever it was. Its a rapper named young thug. I know you dont listen to rap but thats a thats always out there in policing. People always say that guy is a young thug. Why would you describe that . What you pacify as a young thug . It doesnt have to be racial. Thats the term that is commonly used. Guest in this particular case this individual was not only a look at what he was the muscle. He was the doorman and he controlled entry and exit from this building. So instead of being a regular security person, this guy was making sure that the police were not getting anywhere near the apartment, or in some cases as weve seen, other people are coming to steal from the drug dealers. Host right, okay. Something very interesting used it in the book, and im quoting, bad cops are seldom bad cops. Just one. Please explain. Guest okay. As you know in social science the something called the slippery slope theory. Where at least the premises is that if you do something wrong, and its minor, it will gradually grow into something more serious. When someone makes the decision to commit a crime as a Police Officer, stealing, using Excessive Force, involvement with drug dealers, you come very rarely especially the kitchen its the very first time they had been involved. What i would like to say and usher you will echo this is that the overwhelming vast majority of the nypd officers dedicated, hardworking men and women doing what of the toughest jobs in the country. Good people. But its that small percentage that less than one half of 1 who are corrupt, who are brutal, who are bad cops. Host were going to get to that. Guest its a fat percent that steals the headlines away from the good cops. Host yes. You talk about that were going to get back to that. But how often falsely wrote, how often did internal affairs turned cops migrated cops who became criminals, and once you guys grabbed them, they flipped . How often did a flip . I know that like cops dont want to rap of the cops out. But you are catching cops a committed some serious crimes. How often with a flip to like wear a wire or rat their fellow cops out . Guest it doesnt happen as often as it should come as often as it could but it does happen from time to time. A lot of it has to do with how deeply involved the officer is. Unfortunately sometimes the worst of the lot is the first one that gets arrested and they are the first one willing to talk. So we use every method we can, good solid investigative techniques like flipping people, like using bad cops and put them back out there using them as our agents and our informants. So yes, we do it, but it probably doesnt happen as often as it could happen. Host earlier in your career, and you did 41 years. Guest yes, i did suspect you know i am only 388, right . Guest that makes me feel much better. Host 4 41 years. Early in your career what i got out of the book is that you are straight as an arrow right from the top. What particular case that i applaud you for is one is when you and your partner or chasing a young kid that you say burglarized a place, you caught illegally with the bag. You guys have all the equipment on, your gun fell, your best in everything and he was a giving young kid. He was turned up on you and your partner got into a crouching statement was read to shoot improvement in the back i guess and you stopped apartment said we cant do that. I applaud you for taking that. This was in the 70s. Serpico, just corruption everywhere. I really applaud you for that. How did you feel after you did that . Guest i didnt want that young man to be hurt for what he did. There was no justification for using that level of force on that young man. He was out running us. Thats the name of the game. Good for him. Cops and robbers. Good for him. He was running away. I would give me eventually but i just couldnt allow him to be shot running away from us. Host i believe you guys still caught them if i remember. Guest yes, we did. He runs into an abandoned building. This building, he dropped the bag. He had a garbage bag full of supplies out of a beauty parlor. Nothing expensive, hair dryers, clock radio, brushes, some cosmetics, things of that nature. Once you drop the bag he was not good to be copier he was a young man. He was running very fast but we saw him run into one of the abandoned buildings and we were eventually able to catch them in the building tiedyed under some debris and on a broken door. Host thats great. I mean, not too many cops will take that stand. We both were cops. You know that most cops want to fit in. You dont want to rock the boat if this is the way things are going. Actually when i read your book, i was actually like really straight in my career, very, very straight. I had this image that people thought i was doing it. When im reading a book unlike wow, chief is just like me, so straight to which leads me to one of the finest part of your book, the cup of tea that you pay ten dollars for. It was one dollar. Let me set this up. Its really hard for me to believe that 40 years, even in a 70 candidates and 90 you didnt take one cup of coffee . Not take, but just this is what used to happen to be. I was scared. Mine was an early 90s. I worked in the morning, and i would go purchase anyone to give you stuff. And i was so scared because im a rookie im nervous. I would say give me my dollar. At least two before quarter. Make this look like there was an exchange and i would do what you do. Just leave the dollar when it went out of the store. You did that quite often . Guest i did. And if the place wouldnt take my money i wouldnt go back again. I did what an investment and it did want to embarrass anybody else. When this happened coffee and tea was about ten cents. I bought tea for myself and copyright partner. As you know, you take turns buying. I didnt have any change. The man was adamant i just left a doll and walked out. Host and he became a running joke in decreased income right traffic why would you spend a dollar for a tencent cup of tea . Host funny stuff. The book is authentic for the people, its very authentic and all of these stories i can relate to. Theres been a tremendous amount of distrust between the Minority Committee and police in the last three years, and this goes back to something you were saying. Used in your experience, your estimation is that less than half of 1 of cops are bad. Just explain a little further for the people who are watching. Guest i spent 41 years in the nypd. I saw acts of courage, bravery, integrity. But theres always that small number of cops who keeps you up at night. When is a precinct commander everyone knew the person, maybe two, that you didnt trust and the other officers didnt trust him or her either. What i did when i went to internal affairs is i brought the Committee Officers on board and we would meet with them on a regular basis. I would ask them questions like who in your command are you a little concerned about . Who in your command keeps you up at night . We will do an investigation for you, maybe an integrity test to make sure we want to talk about that later. We will not put a kissinger commits a some commanders are worried if theres too cases against my command. They will think im not doing a good job. We always told them if youre part of the investigatory team, if you work with us, you will come out of this looking well, not dean criticized. So i always look for that person. Person. The other cops are willing to tell you if youre willing to listen who they stay way from, who they dont want to work with. Host we would get back to that but thats the case of really bothered me, Everybody Knows who the hot areas. Corporate america, you know this guy is of the dead weight. I dont want to work with that guy. But in policing it so much more because its taking lives. Guest you have to be able to come forward, stand up. And sometimes i stop my partner that time and it wasnt easy for me in the beginning. The good thing was that my reputation was that i wasnt a bad cop. So they came to me and they said tell us what really happened. So thats good, if you have a good reputation they will come and listen to your side of the street. They may not believe you but they will give you an opportunity to talk. Host in the last 25 years, dramatic decrease in crime in nypd, you know, takes a lot of credit, and rightfully so. Things have changed from 42nd 4d street to what it is today. You dramatically dropped corruption at nypd. I have to give you the credit. I know that you did. From reading the book, you really explained it. Do you think theres a direct correlation between the drop in corruption to decrease in crime . That something of think about when i was reading a book. Guest like to think so but the truth of the matter is when we were first starting internal Affairs Bureau, back in 1993, we looked and we saw that for the most part internal affairs around the world was conducted very, very reactively. Citizen makes a complaint, resources are put to investigate the complaint. But it really had very little effect on corruption and the love of complaints we were getting. So we change our focus. We were reacted. We always were reactivated we would take in place of but we decided that in order to be effective we needed to be proactive. I think that proactive internal investigations is what set us apart from the other Police Departments. And also was mainly responsible for the reduction in corruption. Im not ready to take credit for the reduction in crime. Host im going to give it to you. Guest id like to put credit were i think it belongs, on the men and women in the nypd come as highranking members we would like to stand up when crime goes down and say its our policies and procedures but its the man and woman on the street who makes it work. Host definitely. Crack was over, you know, we got closer to the committee, people were giving us more information but the brunt of the credit goes to the nypd. 1970, youre working in brownsville, the 73 precinct. I never even knew that it was called for c. Thats the old name. Thats just think about this. It was one of the most violent places in the city in new york in the 70s. Fast forward now years later and i was Commanding Officer which encompasses all the Housing Developers in brownsville. As we stated today my estimation is browser is the most vital place in the city of new york. I actually believe that. When do you think the Police Department is actually going to read that place of crime . Guest i worked there for a number of years and there were so many good honest people there, people that i tried to help the best i could. Its cyclical, and as new york city is changing and we seek in other parts of brooklyn, its just a matter of time before they are going to discover that brownsville is the next hot spot of people are going to get in and he will make the changes with the Police Department, with city government, with State Government to start to turn that place around. Host i believe that is probably the only place that hasnt turned yet. Guest just a matter of time. It will get there. Host all those housing developments. Good, great. Now, when you are on vacation with your wife, someone approaches you that you arrested before. I had the exact same experience, only thing it was in jamaica. Guest mine was in the virgin islands. Host and they did not do what you did. I kind of like he knew who i was, but what stood out to me is relationships are everything and i always tell the cops, the game is over. That means that you build relationships, you really was doing the right thing because you can see this guy in the virgin islands. It could be a problem, but because of the relationship that you had with your prisoners, sounds like you would a close relationship, but i gather you treated them all with respect once the bracelets were on. Guest absolutely. I never hit a prisoner. I never stood by one, let anyone else had a prisoner. In this particular case this young man was locked in his cell for a couple of hours. It was during the blackout. Was during, writing going on and we couldnt have been as accommodating as we wanted to be. Host i remember, i was a kid when the blackout happened to him but you really describe exactly what everybody talked about. Guest it was a chaotic scene, and all this young man wanted was go to the bathroom and have a drink of water. How could i deny someone that . In good faith how could i deny someone that . Host a lot of cops would deny a guy to go to the bathroom. You also talked about what me and you know anybody in Law Enforcement is the hook. I was so happy to read that you said the hook is alive and well. Why do we explain to the people what the hook is . Basically if you know somebody, they will be able to put your places. Corruption is just hey, if i work mcdonalds and i was a ceo, and if you want a job, i would want to put them on french fries are probably try to prove them to be the manager. Thats just what the hook is. Host and. Guest . Nothing corrupt. People who know, new Police Officers sometimes they steer them in the right direction, put them in commands that are more favorable, commands what easier for them to commute back and forth, commands that are better suited for a younger officer. Host right ticket wasnt suited for the guy that was doing the corruption in the book where you sent him from Staten Island all the way to the bronx. Guest theres something called highway therapy. [laughing] guest its not use often but sometimes its a way of getting a very strong message across that you are here to do a job because thats what you get paid for, do your job. Host exactly. Now, you talk about something that bothers you was go away money. And the go away money is, basically the lawsuit against the city of new york, the Police Department and the city just tws hey, lets just settle this lawsuit. 10,000, 20,000. Lets go to like 1999. Remember, 1997 i believe, a National Organization of latinos office association. They had a lawsuit, discrimination, working conditions, miners were being severely punished other than more harsher than other people. And cases of disciplinary action. They settled the suit for 27 million. Do you think that was hush money . Guest well, heres the way the attorneys describe it and i opposed to it from day one. If you done something wrong, you have to make amends. My mother told me that when i was a child. But if you write you need to defend yourself and fight. And a lot of these cases the attorneys would come and say this suit, we would do a cost and also to weaken when this but it will cost us 100,000 in legal fees, court time, et cetera. But if we give the person 10,000, they will go away and the city saved 90,000. What i think it does, that just encourages more lawsuits. People will say our case isnt strong, our case may not even be winnable, but if we sell maybe it will give us go away money. They will give us money and we have made money. The city says weve done nothing wrong. Th. The individual officer says e or she did nothing wrong. But they are encouraging lawsuits in my opinion. If you are right, then you need to stand up and fight. Host right. Mike dowd, the infamous mike dowd. You speak about the mike dowd, i believe you said, do you believe that there were other mics audit that time . Its hard for me to believe that he was the only person that was robbing drug use and everything way back then. There had to be more. Guest it had to be more. Host why dont you think the Police Department after these guys . Guest remember, back then you had the internal Affairs Division, which was an outgrowth from the commission. They were geared to handle what at the time was now found systemic corruption within the Police Department. A very reactive approach. What they did was they didnt go as corruption grows. Corruption mutates, and at least and micah icing corruption go from systemic to opportunistic to now familiar. Familiar corruption, thats the most difficult to detect and to prosecute. So as corruption was mutating from the systemic corruption, systemic means it goes up and down the entire organization. You find it laterally placed vertically within the organization. That was basically eliminated. And today im happy to say i saw in my time, i saw no signs of systemic corruption. Host i agree. Guest but optimistic corruption began to grow. That is much more difficult to investigate easygoing to be reactive. The old internal Affairs Division did not grow, did not evolve as corruption was mutating. They tried to do the old things over and over again, and they were ineffective. And corruption was allowed to floors, not on purpose but because they just didnt do it correctly. Host now, when you took over, i love that you say, Police Commissioner ray kelly called into his office and basically stuck this iab write down your throat and said listen, i need you, it doesnt matter. People dont understand. When the boss tells you to go summer, you just say yes sir. If you say anything other than, y