Nathalia holt who is here today talk about the research of your new book called rise of the rocket girls. Guest thanks for having me. Host i would like to begin hall you discover this group of women and how you managed to write about this group of women . It is a strange coincidence. My husband and i were expecting our first baby in 2010 having a difficult time coming up with names. One suggested Eleanor Francis and i wasnt sure and tell i googled name Eleanor Francis helene and i was just done by the picture i had no idea that women worked at that time so i found out Eleanor Francis was not alone that jet propulsion is laboratory there were no computers so that a time a computer men to a person that computes. Host how did this group of women come together with that was rare . Just because of macy roberts who started at the jet Propulsion Laboratory near the inception and then made supervisor of the computers and while she had meant that applied she decided she wanted to make it all women with a Cohesive Group but she was also worried they would have difficulty listening to her because she was a woman. Host so what did they do . Primarily by women during the cold war . But to have a woman supervisor that is very powerful they spent there in the beginning with the potential of rocket propellants and trajectories for their early vessels and then things changed and then when they begin changing the first computer programmers 40 or 50 years one of them still works at nasa today the longest serving female employee. They are very unique among the nasa centers and then it was quite unique. I mentioned a moment ago looking for names for one of your children but i wonder there is a wonderful story in the introduction that it is very extremely large so wondering how did you choose . Did you do so in such wonderful personal detail. How do you choose you to focus on and why . Many women had great contributions and many held a variety of roles at the jet propulsion lab. But it and focused on them from the very beginning to not have a good first fortune to meet these women in person and get the stories from them. It is wonderful they still know each other in their still friends with the vivid memories of what life was like in the 50s and 60s so that is how i ended up choosing the the focus my story on a few women. Host grievously going off of interviews for in the bottom of the story is . Cry was help lucky to have the help of archivists at the jet Propulsion Laboratory. They were wonderful to help find the documents, to spend time on the archives but this proved essential because the was hopeful with photographs and documents there is so much of the story that was lost because nobody had documented the womens role so i was fortunate to do those interviews. The way the are assumed under more dominant voices the fact you were doing this bit of archiving with the extra benefit of the writing this book so thank you for that. I am curious whether the most important characters is the data the Women Computers are with the processing and interpretation of the data but you have a wonderful part where you talk about raw data that shimmered in your hands could you tell us more about what these women were working with how that contribute to the Overall Mission it had changed over the half century that you cover in the book . There was certainly a lot of data to cover as it starts off in this simple way learning about the early missiles and the calculations done on an assault developed in the fifties i found interesting because it was not that important in the military since been very important later in 1958 with explorer one launched. It is interesting to see the womens talking nations are very important when we get to the space race. Then the data changes going from calculating trajectories and propellant them looking at a spacecraft in there so many wonderful stories to the moon and the planets and one of my favorite pieces of calculation was for the of voyagers this so interesting to me because of the way it was done in the early 70s there were looking at the solar system because of funding it was cut and one of the computers and engineers came in on a weekend and ended up finding a weight of the trajectory to allow them to take the one mission to jupiter and extend it so almost all planets of the solar system could be included it was just fascinating how they could use the trajectory and it was hush hush because theres so many concerns from nasa about going over budget. So not only to focus on one piece but of course, that covers many decades and fantastic missions. In this is relevant to some of the current debates about mission in san Planetary Science and prepare research this speaks to the current debate very well. One of my favorite parts of the book is looking at these women better Virtual Computers use signpost their stories with moments in the history of computing through the modern computer so can you tell me how you see your book fitting in the larger part of the 20th century . It is interesting when i first started researching i assumed it would be the computers that outlasted but now you see the people that lost the job with the i am came in and at j. P. L instead it was the computers that were constantly changing. So i really love the relationships that they had was surprised to learn how much mistrust there was of ibm in the early days of nasa many engineers told me they did not trust the machines and felt they were prone to flareups and they did not want to use them on missions because of that you have the opportunity of the women of j. P. Help to be the first computer programmers so they have these fun relationships one of my favorite is an i am that the women decide to name coro she was one of those women she gets her own name plate outside of the door along with all the other women so that relationship with technology is interesting and it was fun to see that evolved over the decades. Host that is especially interesting especially given the focus lynch epo with the trust required in technology if youre sending people to jupiter on the Voyager Mission but that distrust of the i am machines with a contrasting trust in the devices that is interesting to d. C. Any attention the way they thought about their i am computers or their robotic spacecraft . That was interesting it was such a long process for i am to gain their place that they now occupy very well at j. P. Al and that dynamic between that spacecraft their building in the engineers are watching with theres so much trust going on into every detail but yet they want to make sure there are humans behind the calculations so it is funny it took as long as it did for the machines to take precedence over humans with calculations but yet there is still an interesting dynamic today at current jpl we tend to think of Space Exploration something detached from humanity done by machines and computers but it is interesting to see how an important people really are to the process. I love the story how she was gendered as a woman is given a womans name i thought that was a wonderful detail. Did the women never have any anxiety or do they do different work how was their labor divided . There was a lot of fear and for good reason there were several supervisors that would tell the women your jobs will be gone soon i am will replace you we wont need you anymore so what was a real fear there would be losing jobs to technology and it did happen all over but the fact that they could persist is quite amazing. Is in beyond the presence that they have and the alternate universe that they could persist in a time period with the expectation to leave their jobs upon marriage or childbirth the fact that so many did continue to work for decades is remarkable because in the exact same time period many women are barred from working in the early 60s as they are compared to the astronauts written off with the expectation investing in them that they would leave for marriage or childbirth. So why is this story so different . You have a few that choose to leave when they get pregnant but why did they persist wise this story different than others during this time period . There are several reasons but you are right at that time it was a very small percentage only 25 percent of mothers worked outside the home and of course, there was no Maternity Leave so when women got pregnant there were often forced off the lab and i found because they were a tight Cohesive Group with a female supervisor so when helen became supervisor she provided a very strong example of a working mother she had two children and could just use Vacation Time to substitute for Maternity Leave and what she did that wasnt happening is she made from calls should call a woman after they had a child if and ask if they wanted to come back she had a very high success rate after words but then the lab provided an environment that was very friendly toward them because unlike other nasa centers that our more strict with the military atmosphere in which had a very academic feel and still does so at the time people had to work a very strict eight hour day at some centers there were not even allowed to talk to each other but at j. P. Yelled they could shift hours hours, early or a leave early and basically could just hours in a way that is common to us now with flex time that was unusual ben of course, there were still working very long hours all night if there was a launch so they also depended on each other with wonderful families but i definitely think one reason the standout is the friendships that they had in the fact someone who is purposely trying to make a wonderful environment for working mothers. Host i am sure a lot of women today would read this story is the lot of Common Threads with a flextime with the women of socioeconomic values by the then you are a microbiologist and a mother so how much of your own experience with that balancing act factored into writing the book . It is interesting because you dont expect to have many similarities with women better in their 80s and 90s but i found myself relating to their experiences and sharing what they went through at this time. I found their stories very inspiring the way they handled family and work was very familiar to me and i enjoyed that part it was very surprising in many times when i was having trouble balancing of with think they did this and 59 so i can do this today. [laughter] host in addition to these uplifting moments of the two women that they wish to overcome internal or external pressures, there is a few moments of sadness or failure with the strange and unusual set up for instance one compels her to go to therapy wise and she married . I that this is awfully spore women are being forced to choose not only internally but then extra early with loved ones could you go over the other external pressures will of the computers beyond the workplace . There were a lot of expectations put on women at that time and i found that over and over again one of the most chromatic of the first africanamerican hired in a technical position she had an incredible background with a degree in Chemical Engineering today should have got a job as an engineer but because of the limitations of her race and gender she was a computer and ended up having incredible advantages for j. P. Of becoming an engineer eventually but certainly the extern all pressures of geography that was put on her was quite difficult and i found it quite sad when i learned a bareback ground but yet inspiring she could overcome all of that to achieve her dream to become an engineer. Host a wedge you got up to her because i caught her store was so compelling one of the few women of color when you mention her struggles that you write about eventually she has to leave because she is commuting she doesnt feel comfortable selling in pasadena that is white and then leaving go someplace closer to home she would find women should cover very bright with a lot of potential but not necessarily the degree needed to be hired as an engineer said she would hire them as a computer then encourage them to go to night school and she found many women had bachelors degrees and wanted to do engineering been not quite in the right place so she could fill the lab she hired many minorities in jpl is quite a special place with the work she did in hiring. Host . Host is a your understanding is that jay pl in addition to hiring more women during that time also hired more people of color than other places . Battle think thats true i think other nasa centers hired many women and women of color as well but with j. P. Allen was the careers that they had and other nasa centers women were inspired by the late fifties or early 60s so that is what i found was very unique. Could you talus tell us why women were being fired . Technology park and other nasa centers they fired those that worked as computers there were also large groups of women and it was happening all over the country. Host so the computers that gbl really should have been concerned for their jobs but they were to sounds like they were pretty comfortable. Did you find that they were aware of what was happening elsewhere . Were they concerned or did the culture of having so many women be someplace else . There were definitely concerned. Men that they worked with who basically told them your jobs are in jeopardy in you will be gone because of technology so there was fear they managed to overcome this a large part they had the female supervisor the could vouch for them in their relationships with the male colleagues but what was unique they would include the women on publications and this was very uncommon at the time but pirelli boosted their careers quite a bit. Host that brings me to a question i have about the overall conclusions you make in your book there is a quotation from the final chapter of the 60s section while protesters were demanding equal rights across the country the women created their own equality building in the environment to build up women their contributions for every bit as eliot as their counterparts this is really a remarkable claim especially given the struggle and their failures in their spaces and also what you mentioned elsewhere the same arguments against the men if you leave her get pregnant or get married. But beyond that it with the art class to show that in a very specific way of knowledge so arguing that they shaped j. P. All the cells of the place of the quality especially in the 60s so speak more how you came to the conclusion of equal value i would appreciate that. There was a crucial role in emissions and i felt when i talked to them much that value is how they saw themselves not just in their colleagues or included in publications but not simply their work that was important but they saw themselves as equally important as theyre male colleagues and that is a big deal because they have many other women in the lab those that worked as secretaries and they found themselves to be quite different in their treatment was different and secretaries so that is where i could make such a big claim because of the plays they occupied that was quite special at the time so it changes through the early 60s were there just on the verge and it is important to note they are making less than theyre male colleagues and that is all about to change it will become engineers and their salaries will go up. But they feel valued in a way that is equal to their male colleagues. Host that makes sense given the narrative voice in the book it is almost conversational like a collective memoir you are introducing yourself as a part of which is compelling to make this book incredibly accessible across such a broad audience when you were writing the book to do have a sense of their leadership in what to emphasize . I did think about the readers i wanted to attract i was hoping to have the range to attract young people who could be brilliant and may not have the background but would like to have an overview of the early period of nasa or even those historians or experts that not all what about the history in detail of Early Missions of the 60s but maybe not the details from this perspective the role of women in these missions i hope there are still plenty of stories that people havent heard bader interesting of how nasa came to me. Host i am impressed by the little many science lessons you dispersed throughout the text they are incredibly accessible very simple and brief but punctuate the text as to explain the concept the computers were working with why did he choose to include those . That was important to me to include as much math and science as i could because it is important to understand what they did in their contributions but also it is just fascinating and found myself overwhelmed by the beauty of these experiments in the Early Missions it was a lot of fun to write those and hopefully they are accessible for any reader to follow. Host i found them very accessible and i am not a scientist i appreciate that very much. [laughter] i was thinking of some of the current initiatives in the office of Science Technology policy with representation of women so howd you think youre but can contribute to the ongoing dialogue to encourage women to work in the stem feels that they are underrepresented . I hope that has a big influence the situation right now of women with technology is desperate we need to bring more women into technology i hope the stories are inspiring they can serve as role models it is important we recognize their contributions because they deserve it and it is overdue that they get recognition of their work but i also hope it will serve as an inspiration for all those young girls under interested in science today. Host that being said this book covers such a vast area of material fell on the cutting room floor can you tell me a few of the favorite stories that didnt make it . Such a hard question. There are so many great stories. [laughter] i was surprised i talk about jupiter c in the book which is a forerunner to the First American satellite i was surprised how much work went into that and i discussed briefly in the book but the detail that i learned from the women working on it was quite incredible before sputnik even launched they were strapping together a model of the sergeant missile and putting them in stages on top of a rocket and they really wanted to launch the First American satellite at j. P. Al and they do eventually but i was shocked the could have done one before