[laughter] i, i have a theory, i have a grand, unified Michael Lewis theory, and i thought that we would start there. I havent heard it, id love to hear it. And im going to, this is going to be i would like to see whether you, whether you get the theory, so im going to give you an opportunity to answer. Youll see. The theory [laughter] the preamble to the theory is that you are principally a moralist. In fact, i believe you are americas leading nonfiction moralist. What do you mean by that . Well, you re someone whocc. And as proof, i would like to point out that in five of your bestsellingj a financial ark. Perfect. [laughter] okay, so, but flash boys is, its the most perfect biblicallal gory of all. Which one is it, do you know . No idea. [laughter] its jesus and the money changers this the temple. Ooh. My Fathers House is a place of prayer, but you have turned it into a den of thieves, jesus said. Flash boys [laughter] [applause] i was looking, i got the book, and i was, like, wheres the biblical epigraph from second matthew, like matthew i, whatever it is, 24. Couldnt find it. You know, what i want to know is why i dont feel better understood than i felt two minutes ago. [laughter] its okay. The you, wait, youre not disputing that there is a deeply moral center to all of yourr[ books . This certainly in this case it is more moralistic, i think, that many of the things ive written. Oh, i think theyre all, i think theyre all moral. Probably, its probably hard to write without thinking,jdtqih some sort of moral sensibility. I, its on the surface more in this book because its on the surface with the characters. A lot of my characters dont feel that way about the world around them. In this case you have, you have a canadian such as yourself who walks into the american finance, and what he finds eventually appalls him because hes canadian. [laughter] and its a, that he is so clearly not just appalled, but he has such a clear sense of right and wrong and whats going on is wrong, and hes going to fix it. Its a little different for me. Its hard to make swing on the page than some ambiguity. Many of my characters have a lot of moral ambiguity about them. He has less than anyone ive ever written. Ill grant that, but you surely arent saying i mean, i find that same, i just explained, i find that same moral centeredness in think of all of your, think of the great, the characters in those five books. Theyre all this some way in opposition to the world around them. Yes, its absolutely true. And they all have a moral position on the world around them. What is billy beans moral position . [laughter] his, well, were going to get to that in a moment. [laughter] he has a moral position, and that is that the moneyball was an argument about privilege, right . On one level. To me, it was a book about privilege. I think of it as a book about value and about, about how i think it is a book about how difficult, how much difficulty markets have placing value on human beings. But billy bean didnt think of it that way. Billy bean could have given a ratskzr ass about things like that. He thought about it as a book of war. His war and the book around him. He budget thinking right and he wasnt thinking right and wrong in a moral way. He was thinking right and wrong like my math is better than your math. I know. But you dont think theres a moral dimension to someone who says we have fundamentally misunderstood peoples true values in the world . I say that. Yeah. He doesnt. But he didnt write the book. Yeah, thats true. [laughter] so, you know, i think it is true that but i dont think this makes me unusual as a writer. No, no. It is true that, i mean, what causes you the pick up, to sit at your machine and type words out in the first place . Its some sense of, like, somethings wrong or the world misperceives something. Yeah. You have a sense of, a view of events that feels at least to you perhaps erroneously fresh, different, and often that view is driven by some moral concern. Thats fair. Im not sure i think im more this way than other people. You think i am . Oh, heavily. Really . But i want to point out, to go back to your characters again, i think theres, i think that if you list them, lee january tuohey, michael bury in big short, billy bean, brad whatever his last name, how do you pronounce his last name . Even maury taylor, they all have, theres a Common Thread that runs through them, dont you think . Um, i said before theyre all in opposition to the world around them. Every one of those people. But the ant, i mean, look, everybodys got a moral position even by default. Take a character like Michael Berry in the big short. Hes someone who goes into finance after he boons medicine abandoned med sane because he realizes i care about people but not really. [laughter] and is souon indifferent that he takes refuge in numbers. Now, i guess thats a moral position, but it isnt what most people think of as a moralistic character. Yeah. But the point is i thought when i read that i found Michael Berry to be very moving. He too. Yeah. I thought it because you did. [laughter] but this is true. Can i interrupt you for a sec . Im trying to find some truth in what you just said. [laughter] im doing my best here. My wheels are spinning. [laughter] there is some truth, its true that, um, i have no interest in writing a book unless, unless i feel something. The bottom of all of them is emotion. Its absolutely true. So i write about often very dry things; baseball statistics, subprime mortgage crisis, High Frequency trading. Who caresc really . I mean, the you had told me if you had told me, if all i knew was that the stock market was rigged and heres how its rigged and, michael, you can go explain how its rigged and no one else knows, im not sure i have that much interest. I care a little bit, but i dont care enough to sit down and write about it. What i cared about, what i care about is that this character walks on, walks into this world, discovers its rigged and how he behaves with, once he has the understanding. The moral choices he makes. No question about it. And that engages my emotions. Thats what causes me to care about the story. So i have to, i have to feel something. Yeah. And its funny, and it is true, i would also say its true that what i feel is quixotic sometimes. I was sitting there watching, i realized when i had my 7yearold on my lap and i was watching the 60 minutes show about the story two sundays ago, and i realized i was crying. I had tears coarsing down my face because i was kind of embarrassed. But i was crying because i could see the character of the main, of the guy i wrote about, brad, on the screen displayed so clearly, and i found that character moving. That causes me to put any effort into this. Were you more moved by his character than some of those previous, some of your previous heroes . I find all of them kind of moving. Yeah. He was i like brave people, and a lot of my characters are brave. He is, i will say this, what he has done is peculiarly brave because hes brought on the wrath of the gods. I mean, he really has, hes gone to war with his own industry in a way billy bean didnt even do until the book came out. Billy was forced into that position by the book with. Brad went to war with the industry all by himself. And so i found and i findc m as ac character, becauseni he t by nature a troublemaker. By nature someone who goes out of his way to antagonize systems. I find him, i find that moving, that he was forced by circumstances to make choices that were really almost unnatural to him, to step outside of a system in which he was quite comfortable personally this response to a moral reaction he had. So hes forced, almost forced into the role, and that once forced into the role, he behaved so bravely. So what i had in mind when i finished this book, i thought to i had this strange feeling that id read this book i just wrote. What is this reminding me of . And it took me a while to put my finger on it, but here you had this character, brad, who had unleashed, who had triggered was sitting in the middle of this great war, and the war was between people with money to invest and the people who were mishandling the money. The middleman and the investors. A war that none of them really wanted in some way but now is happening, he was in the middle. And hes short, very short. And hes in some ways a reluctant middleman in this war, reluctant participant. I thought, oh, my god, ive just written lord of the fringes. [laughter] and i think of him as frodo. Yeah. In a frodolike way. Hes got that situation. And i find his bravery, like frodos what does it say about the difference between you and me that im drawn to the most dramatic story in the new testament, and you think of lord of the rings, . [laughter] you were raised with religion. No, i have much grander aspirations for your imagination than you do. Right . [laughter] i think the lord of the rings is pretty terrific. Actually doesnt reread very well. But i read it the first time, i thought it was pretty terrific. So i think anyway, so what do all these people have this common . Theyre troublemakers this their environment, theyre disruptive in some way or another, they have problems with their environment all of which is very useful this describing the environment. Theyre all characters this situations. In situations. Beyond that what is it about you that is drawn to that specific profile . You know, its funny, malcolm and i have done this once before a long time ago. You wont remember because there were six people in a barnes noble in new york. The blind side came out, and you were perplexed that all my books seemed to be the work of, bp r p ly, someone who has radical hostility towards the world around him, and you couldnt understand because i had rich parents, i was raised by people who loved me look at you with your blond hair. And then im it was what is, where does this hidden neurosis come from, is basically your question. [laughter] and i dont know if i answered you properly at the time, but i dont know if it was a good answer, probably just partly in some way im wired. You know, i dont look the way im wired, but i do think that it helps me as a writer that i grew up in a world that i loved. I grew up in new orleans. And it was a world that was outside in many ways American Culture. And American Culture was clearly hostile to it. It was3z not going to survive American Culture. And a lot of things i valued this that world were crumbling in that world were crumbling before my eyes. So i could see that hi fathers way of life was unsustainable, for example. I think that probably helped. What do you mean by that . I mean do you mean what kind of what was unsustainable about your father . Well, it was unsustainable not to care very much what you did for a living or get your status from your achievements in the world as opposed to just your personal relationships from your family. It was not a success culture. It really people were largely indpirvelt to what other people did to make a living and much more focused on family relationships. And there was kind of an ironic twist or an ironic string in life, a kind of detachment, amusement, a gift for creating the culture had a gift for creating wonderful moments. It wasnt, it was a naturalness about it. I just felt but it was, it was not a successful place. It was a failed place in many ways, and a kid could see that. You could see that, you know, you could see that even the things you loved were not sustainable. So i think it makes you question, makes you question success when something you feel is very successful at a very deep emotional level is by the standards of the world a failure. So thats probably, that probably has something to do with how i approach subjects, but i dont know how much. The answer to the question may be im, actually, basically lazy, and its much easier to write a story about a disruptive story in an environment than it is to do, say, the kind of thing you do where you actually have to think through the idea very clearly from beginning to end. [laughter] i mean, i weve had this conversation before. I maintain what you do is harder c0v yeah. So to tie these two things together, the lewis family motto, i kid you not, when i was growing up my father said on a coat of arms is passed down from generation to generation was this do as little as possible and that unwillingly. [laughter] [applause] wait, theres more. For it is better to receive a slight reprimand than to perform an arduous task. [laughter] and i thought that was serious. I mean, i thought that made total sense to me. [laughter] and so my writing life, it is influenced by that kind of approach. I mean, i dont look for trouble or hard things to do. I look for, i look for things i can to without too much trouble. And i you understand this, youre making no sense whatsoever right now. [laughter] why . You are, first of all, insanely prolific. Yeah, but its not hard. [laughter] that does not make me feel were better, by the way. Once i find a story that engages me and a character and a situation that engages me, its very easy. I mean, i have to spend time with him, which to other people might be onerous. But and i have to kind of learn some things. But if situation and the characters right, the rest often just kind of takes care of itself. And so maybe its just, for me, maybe given my proclivities, maybe its just what i am doing is finding the path of least resistance. Which of your books was the hardest . To write . To write. Probably the new new thing. And its a good way to judge t9n i think back on them, i think almost on olympic dives, you have to have the degree of difficulty as well as the execution. Yeah. And the degree of difficulty was high there because i had a character i knew the reader wasnt going to the whole point of the character is hestg incredibly uncomfortable to be with, that he doesnt the minute you get settled, he unsettles. So he never gives you a place to rest. And its the culture of Silicon Valley embodies in a embodied in a person. Thats are hard to make he doesnt form attachments. Very hard for the reader to form an attachment with him. So that was, i think, probably the hardest. This one and the big short had these Technical Details that were difficult to kind of bring across a bit. Its hard its basically impossible to describe a collateralized debt obligation. [laughter] i mean, nobody, no matter what you do, the best you hope for yeah. Is that you fool people into thinking they understand it. [laughter] and so when they put the book down they say, i got that, and they go tell people they understood it, but they dont really understand it. [laughter] so you have to give up artfully with some things. So that was true in this case. There are some laces where i just hope the reader felt they didnt want the know any more. [laughter] but the, but theyre all, i mean, i find the hard part of these things is structure. Its like what is the way to tell a story, and once you find a way to tell a story, it kind of tends to almost write itself. Uhhuh. And, by the way, which was the easiest . Wives poker because it was just about me. I was so vastly amused by myself too. [laughter] and it never, i mean, i am told this is true. My wife, tabitha, tells me so i write with headphones on, i listen to music, and i will listen to the same song over and over and over on a loop just because it shuts everything out. I wrote an entire chapter of this book to let it go. [laughter] i was like an insane person. I walk the world and i hear that song, i start to write because i got so used to it. [laughter] but liars poker, im told she tells he im cackling with, ic laugh at my own jokes. c [laughter]nrxd and i, and with liars poker, id never written a book. Id written very few magazine pieces. I had no sense thered be actually ay critical reaction to this except we love it. [laughter] so it didnt occur to me to have fears or anxieties. Yeah do you have any fears or anxieties . Of course. What are they . [laughter] well, i think i see, i mean, maybe not as much as some, but i fear the disapproval of others, and, you know, its not nice to get bad reviews. Beyond that, i mean, in my literary life . We have a lot of time. You can want to think about it . [laughter] no, i think could you come up with something . Not really. You know, probably not. Probably not. I dont feel so you have, i think you must be this way too. There are layers of insecurity underneath layers of confidence. At the bottom is confidence. I know at bottom im not really that worried about anything when i write. I dont worry its going to be bad really. I think that if i work hard enough at it, its going to be find, but usually it comes very easily, so i dont even get that far. Be so i dont its problematic, right . Because writers are supposed to be tortured and miserable. Yeah. [laughter] and poor. [laughter] and im none of those. [laughter] im very happy, more or less well adjusted. Plenty rich [laughter] and, you know, i just im at peace with the world around me more or less. So im sorry i cant give you what you need here. [laughter] im not requiring [applause] you know, i find this deeply refreshing. [laughter] our mutual friend, another michael, told me the key to understanding you is that the commencement address you gave at princeton several years ago, which i read this afternoon. Two years ago, yeah. Two years ago, which i read this afternoon. From the pulpit in the church. First time id within in the church, much less the pulpit. And you describe a little bit of what that commencement address was about, and then do you agree that there is something, do you agree that it encapsulates Something Real about the way you see the world . Yes. Central. So you have 12 minutes to address theze from princeton. And i got this nice note from a lady two days later saying charlie was there, my husband charlie was there, and he thought it was really very funny that you didnt remember what he said. [laughter] would you like to come to dinner . So theyve actually become friends. [laughter] so the theme of the speech was the role of luck in life, accident in life. And that the people in the audience, probably even more so than when i was graduating from princeton, think of themselves as deserving, everything that comes to them, because theyve passed through this ruthless merit accuratic filter. Theyve gotten the right scores, the right grades, everybody tells them they deserve to be there. I knew i was there because my father had gone to princeton, so i didnt think i actually even deer deserved to be there. I thought it was a privilege to be there. But because they were programmed the way that theyre programmed now, i thought it was important to tell them how much luck was involved in them being there and how much luck would be involved in whatever happened to them afterwards. And that it wasnt just enough to appreciate their luck, that they owed a debt to the unlucky. And it was a way, what i was doing, was smuggling into princeton, back into princeton the ideology i grew up with which is, you know, its one of those ways to [y