Hundred more questions for you, but unfortunately, itstime is up. Our guest has been joseph persico. His book is called roosevelts secret war. Thank you very much for joining us. Guest thank you for having me, brian. We have some different accidents from my life, i almost didnt make it. Thats another story. As you know, my book is about horrible crime, thats one of the ways to describe it, on november 8, 2008 in a patch of long island when a group of teenagers attacked and killed an immigrant from ecuador. He was not alone that night, walking with his best friend, and he survived the the attack, but the other did not. There were many reasons why i was attracted to the story. One of themfuls the nature of the crime. I found out early on that this young people, and they were very young, they were 17 and 18 at the time, juniors and seniors in high school, made it a practice, sport if you will, or entertainment to go around hunting for beaners, which is what they call immigrants. For somebody on that immigrated from mexico. They talk about how they were looking for illegals from mexico. So i was horrified by that, of course, as anybody would be, the fact that young people think so little of human life as to go out hunting for people as they were preyed. I wrote a story about study, two sociologists released from university, State University of albany, in which they said immigrants where no longer going to the city. They were, in fact, bypassing the cities and moving to suburb suburbia. That was happening all over the country, not just with hispanic immigrants, but all immigrants. I wr0 a story about that, and what they said was to professors was that this would have consequences. It would have consequences in terms of politics and elections, and we have seen that. Also, in terms of tension and all kinds of things. I made a mental note to followup, and i never did. One of those things 245 reporters just move on to the next story, so when i heard about this, i thought this was in many ways a perfect followup bus everything that they said would happen in suburbia, and not far from here, i dont know if you have been there, but sussex is 60 miles, patchhook is 60 miles from new york city, and this situation was going on so near actually between new york city and the hamptons, and maybe not so many loss, but so many people from new york drive to the hamptons every weekends that maybe they dont look sideways and think, you know, this is going on here. These people are our neighbors, and its happening right next door to us. Thats the second reason i was attracted to the story, and the third reason, because as you know, im an immigrant myself. I came from cuba when i was 16 years old, a boarded a boat named manana, and i wrote a book about it called finding manana, and i felt connected to the story. Those of us who came from cuba in 1980 came to be known because the boat lift, and it became a derogatory term, but one i like and use with pride, but it became derogatory, no question about it. I see countries of labels, and what that means, what how much they request hurt, how much they can contain an entire group of people. They, at a certain point, criminality or criminals and its close, and that label of illegality hunted the people who in sussex became, indeed, prey. From i began reporting the book in january of 2010 with the trial of jeffrey convoy, one of the seven young people. Took me three very hard years. Some of you here, and, in fact, probably all of you here know how hard i work. Some of you even helped me 234 that in that work, for which im very, very grateful. I there was a lot happening in the three years. I went to it is a Little Village in ecuador, and many of you have perhaps heard of it, 30 miles, and its smaller, and most have been there, and immigrants, majority of them are hispanics, and they are from ecuador, and practically all are from the Little Village. I was immediately attracted to that because thats how immigration happens; right . They arrive somewhere, and he or she starts realm, gets the job, the house, and begins calling his or her friends from family with reports of the good life or better life, jobs, housing, and they follow, people follow. I was also doing my first visit i made the first visit and its in the book, of course; and he told me the story of how he came and began telling people of the wonders of long island and how they followed. Thats really great. Eventually, obviously, i had to go there and understand the forces that had pushed people out of ecuador because as you know, immigration is a twoway process. Theres the pull and push effect; right . The pulling we do with our way of life and the fact that we paid better wages, and that we have jobs, not all the time, but usually, and the push is when imgrants leave for whatever reason, so i had to go to way sill low to find that. It was a pretty village, criss crossed by rivers, surrounded by mountains, an abundance of food, and very, very kind people, many of whom dont want to leave, and they are doing well, not very well, but well enough to stay. Its a village that changed dramatically because of migration. In fact, i remember standing out a point in the village and he feels the local paper in town, local weekly, and he said, this was the town before immigration, and this is it now. People from the village sent pictures from magazines and money and they say this is the help i want. Down to the child, the kitchen cabinets, and he described the house, over over the years, he sent a hundred thousand dollars to have the house of his dream built. It was built. I visited it. It was waiting for him. His mother was there waiting for him. His mother was, of course, very sad, and she gave me a tour of the house. It had three stories. He had decided who was going to live where. We wanted to have all family together. Shehe was not married, no child, but had two children and one brother, and a nephew. He was a god father of the nephew as well. She showed me in the living room Huge Entertainment Center with a large tv and said he reallimented this very large tv, and the entertainment set, place, center had to be custom made for the tv because it was so big, and he arrived after he was killed, and she pointed like this with her chin to show me what was on top of the tv was his ashes, and it was extremely sad, extremely sad. I also, of course, talked to the parents who talked to me, the parents of the boys who attacked him, and not all of them did, but two did, and the book is better because of that, i feel. The father of jeffrey, mr. Con roy was kind enough to open his home to me and tell me about the family and his son, and the family of chris overtone, and i know seven boys also talked to me, and i think it was a more nuanced portrayal of this young man in the book simply because i know more about them because their parents talked to me, and im sharedded their, you know, childhood, life experiences, and their families. Im happy to report that the mayor of patchhook, he is the grand son of immigrants, and irish, mostly irish, italian immigrants, and also the family had never been to italy, and he said its the best place in the world to be, and why be anywhere . Particularly in the summer. After this, they realized they needed to reach out. He did not speak spanish or been anywhere, and he chose to go which was important. He read the book recently and emailed me saying im not quoting, but hes its a really great book and he called it a cautionary tale that everyone should read in any way you want to. Everybody should read the book. Im using it here, everybody ought to read the book, particularly young people, and i say that because a loot of what happens ghn in the high schools. Dpfs a large place, kids from im going to read a section of the book thats telling about high school, very short because i dont like reading. Its really before i began reporting the book, two of those students were in Journalism School did a documentary on the case. In fact, one of them was my student when he was working on the documentary, and it was this documentary that inspired me because i watched and i realized this is great, but theres a lot more that i can do with a book so they gave me this is with abc news, and i had a documentary called running wild, and they gave me the transcripts that came out of the high school right after it happened which is really important because even if i conducted the interviews in 2010, ewe have time to think about it, its a different story. This is right after the murder. I boy named david, 16, raised in adorable, white, nonhispanic kids threw food at the latino students who huddled at their own tables in lunchtime, quote, like they said we immigrants should go back to mexico, later recalled, and what did you do . One of the filmmakers inquired . Nothing. Most of the time we remain quiet, they replied. When you eat and someone shouts, go back to mexico, what goes through your head . How do you think, and how do you feel . They were trained reporters at the school. [laughter] i feel very long pause ashamed because were in a country that is not ours, you know . Has there ever been a moment when someone has said something demeaning to you in the school hallways, and have you had a problem with someone who dislikes imgrant students here in school . Yes, sometimes we walk, they come by and push us, and we dont do anything because we dont want to get in trouble with them, david said. Students on the way to the gym mumbled under the breath, you mexican, go back to the country, whether the student was mexican or not, or yell, talk english, and run to class. All the time, they complained, they would call the immigration authorities. The list of insults was long, and other students said, quote, you hear mexican, you hear dumb for dominican. That was a new one too. Dumb in a can for dominican. You hear beaner, border hopper, there was a lot, the list goes on forever, illegal, or li i, for illegal imgrant. William said you cant walk in the hallway without looking back. Im 17, born in new york city by someone when she was nine, heard nasty comments about port reiians and dominican. This is 40u she analyzed the behavior of the classmates. I dont think they are racist or anything, like, i think its what they hear at home, like when you hear stuff in the news saying that, all, like mexicans cross the boarder, and hispanics come here trying to take over their jobs. I think if your parents tell all this stuff, i mean, gets implanted, embedded in your head, and they come to school with hatred like one of the only imgrants coming to the country, but, like i see the kids, they hear it at home and come here and they think they know everything, but, really, they are all really ignore rant. That was angelica speaking. I thought this was i dont have words to exprez it. This was just a selection, but there were pages and pages in the transcript of students talking about what went on in the high school. The grownups alleged they dpnt know, never heard. In fact, this attack, this high School Situation and also the attacks in the village even been going on for a long time, and everyone including the town authorities claim they didnt know. It is possible they didnt know because many of the imgrants were here, are here undocumented, and they were attacked and went home. They didnt want to call the police because they didnt know what was going to happen to them if they called the police. How things changed, a lot of people ask me. I like to say yes, as i have, the mayor has been there, and the library is amazing. They were before the attack, and they continue to be. Many members of the clergy have done a lot of things, you know, rabbis, pastors, pastor walter has programs in the church to help the community in general, but i have to tell you that in april of this year, one was attacked, and three weeks later, two more for attacks, so what the mayor says is its hard to tell and hard to know if they were crimes of hatred or crimes of opportunity. Many of the immigrants carry cash because undocumented, and they cannot get paid with checks, so they carry cash. The mayor was happy that the immigrants, after they were attacked, came to him first. That shows the lines of communication are open in the town. Thats a positive thing. The kids didnt live where the attacks happened. They knew there were immigrants there. They lived in other places. To e7d, i want to read another short passage from the trial of jeffrey cop con roy, and this is the beginning of chapter one. This is when the only accident occur viving witness of the attack, of the attackers, of course, he was on the witness stand and the defense lawyer and prosecutor are asking questions about the attack. Did you ever see a knife, asked william, the lawyer representing Jeffrey Conroy. The young man, who at 17, confessed to a stabbing and kill his friend. Never. Did you see anyone stab him . No, because of the second attack. Im not asking, please stop. Im sorry, sorry about that. Thats fine, the lawyer said, and moved on to the next question. It was not fine, a simple no could not convey the feelings, denied he stayed at wake thinking what is. The hours he mulled over his actions on the day of the attack. It was not fair the lawyer wanted a simple yes or no. Both answers could accurately describe the fears or regrets. The truth was that he turned his back momentarily on his friend and the attackers to run for safety to a nearby alley. He had called out to him to follow him, but he had stood his ground and fought. The truth was he had seen the knife, he wished he had. When you got to the police precinct, did you talk to the detective, a Police Officer right away, or did you have to wait, the lawyer continued . I have to wait. Do you know how long . Two, three hours, three hours. And during that time, that two or three hours you were waiting to speak to a Police Officer, did you learn about what happened to your friend . No. Okay, so when did you learn that . I didnt find out until the detechives approached me, introduced themselves, said they were detectives, and the first thing i asked was, how was my friend . And what did they say . They said, im sorry, your friend passed away, hes dead. At this point in the trial, he could no longer hold back tears. He wanted to go back to the oneroom apartment, shut the door, and stay inside with his friends watching tv, wishes he never went out that day at all. If he had said no instead of yes when he called in the afternoon of november 8, 2008, if he had not been so accommodating to his older, wiser friend, perhaps he would be alive. He had briefly considered turning down the invitation today, but he had detected something that was of longingness. Later, he wondered, did he know that he was going to die that day . Did he somehow know he had hours to live, and thats why he didnt want to be alone . He may not have needed a savior that day for he knew he could not have saved his friend. What he needed, he had accountantedded after the attack, was someone to be a witness. So here he was, more than 60 months after that day bearing witness. How did you know him, the prosecutor asked, unleashing a flood of memories. He cleared his throat before answering, i have known him since i was 5 years old. I want to read that because i wanted to read that because i think it encapsulate what the book is about. Its about regret. Its about a senseless murder. Its about racism and bigotry, yes, but mostly, it is about people imperfect people, and what motivates them, and what takes them do what they do. No matter where you are from, come here or from south of the border. Thank you very much. [applause] is there discussion on how things have changed . Yes. I personally have not reported that part not changed. Oh, not changed. I have not record the that part because the book was very focused on the time this took place, but i have been reading in the library, and at least one young student from the high school went, and she said that things had changed, and that immigrants and nonimgrant student the are now getting together organically, she said, and, for example, having lunch together in the cafeteria, which was not the case before. It was a very divided school. I think part of the reason is because the students there said that now the English Learners are not in their own hallway. They had separate classes, separate, but equal, and we know that doesnt work, and so they were in their own limit world. There was not interaction except when the other students had to walk to the gym and had to go through the hallway, and thats when things happen. She said that is no longer the case, so thats true. Thats good news. The immigrants, how they supported themselves, how they worked . Did they was it agricultural . I know sussex was agricultural. At a certain point, now, perhaps now because of the way it was construction and lawn maintenance, lawn work where they were part of the issue was that this is not a wealthy village, this is not upper middle class people. These are lower to middle class people, and so here they were seen as competitors for jobs as well, and with the turn in the economy, which began in 2007, its not coincidence these crimes took place in 2008. It tends to happen. I did a lot of investigation into hate crimes, and that kind of goes handinhand, and so that did not thats how they make a living there mostly. Lop work, a lot of them. Some women work in the homes, you know, not unlike what they do here in new york, taking care of the cleaning and babysitting. Today, they took a program off, but what shocked me is that the head of the group was latino, name is garcia. The Student Group . That came up with the thing. Uhhuh. Is he is latino. What, to me, it was shocking knowing that that was that was specifically that by a latino decided this would be a good idea. Did you find any selfhate among the groups that you talked to . I didnt find selfhate, but one of the attackers, his name was jose, and his mother is africanamerican and his father is port puerto rican, and what i learned in reporting this book is what i think we know already. People are kind to humanity to those they know, and so to go not to those they dont know. Its not different, like, for example, friendship between blacks and whites, sometimes with gay people. Its like, oh, my best friend is gay, but, you know, i dont believe in whatever. Its kind of they were comfortable in their own little world because they knew each other and spoke the same language, literally, and it was a newcomer, the person who didnt speak the language, and that was not like them. In fact, their girlfriend, long time, on and off girlfriend of coproy was from bolivia, yeah. She was very loyal to him. Shes also in the book. She went to the reading. Shes a very sweet girl. Shes moved on. And, you know, people say, how a lot of people here in the trial said jeffrey had latino friends. Jeffrey had black trends. He cant possibly be racist. You know, im not a psychologist to opine about those things, but i also know from my research in hate crimes, that many times hate crimes are not motivated by bigotry. They are motivated by young peopl