What kind of sources used. You allude to the fact access in china is difficult these days. What kind of sources did you use . Second question, what do you was the most challenging thing about writing the biography . Putting this book together was a real effective story. You know, there are some of the different pieces to it, different aspects to it. As i mentioned before i was very fortunate to meet three of birches surviving brothers, papers of William Dolan at uc berkeley, papers of the wedemeyer at the hoover institution. The 14th air force archive at montgomery, alabama, Maxwell Air Force base, socially and exciting trip, and exciting find because buried in those materials is a 24, 25 page interview, oral history interview with john birch which was conducted about five months before his death. The Army Air Force historian arranged this interview because of john birch was the first of these field intelligence officers. He had met doolittle. He had led a colorful life, so theres some wonderful detail in that interview. Another source that was extremely helpful was a newspaper called the fundamentalist, which was published by the Bible Baptist Institute in fort worth. I went down there and they too bright, the curator, was extremely helpful in showing the different sources. Birch had written letters that went to his parents also to be fundamental for the independent baptists back in texas. They published these letters. So there detailed accounts of how he traveled from across the japanese lines, or how we encountered dolittle. So it was really quite a remarkable experience to just be able to identify these different sources and piece them together. I went to new jersey and found information about the marriage of his parents. Made trips to worchester college where ethel birch was a graduate, found alumni information. She and the president of the ywca. And so on and so forth. Greatest challenge in putting the book together, aside from trying to find a publisher which took a while because i think there are people, and to the name john birch and its fascinating to tell people, friends and others, ive written a book about john birch, and the eyes get wide and the eyebrows up and they say, you mean the John Birch Society . And then i said yes, i. T. Is not who you thought he was. So i think public for that reason it was that easy to find a publisher. I was fortunate that oxford press was willing to take it on. I think just getting insights into who he really was through the literacy had written letters to these three women and his letters home. I entered this project skeptical. I entered this project be leaving that john birch met with a been a member of the John Birch Society. By the time i read these letters and read what people who knew him well in china five about him and what you said about the John Birch Society come i reached the conclusion that he never would have joined. Is only interest was to stay in china as a missionary after the war. He had no other purpose. His brother said there was no connection between my brother, john birch, at the John Birch Society. I think that some of the. Birch was interested in religion. Welch was interested in politics. Roger . I had a similar question about the sources of the archives and the Birch Society itself. At the end of the store you didnt tell us what became of the society and what its significance is . The Birch Society still exists. You can go online and find a. Its headquarters now or in appleton, wisconsin, which is coincidentally the home of joseph mccarthy. [laughter] i asked about getting access to the archives, and they are apparently available to members. I did not take out a membership. [laughter] there still are, didnt come i dont know what the numbers are. At the height of the Birch Society them even as many as 100,000 members paying their dues, meeting on a regular basis. I wanted to see if i could use some extent quotes extended quotes from robert welch, but the Birch Society was not inclined to give me permission for that unless they review my manuscript, which i declined. Fortunately, robert welch, for my purposes, robert welch was prolific. He was actually quite a brilliant man. He graduated from university of North Carolina at the age of 17, attended the u. S. Naval academy for two years, attended Harvard Law School for two years and they decided, got married and became a businessman. But welch produced reams of material, had a monthly magazine, still lives, and magazine called new american that the Birch Society puts a. Produced no end of lectures, videos, materials for it. The local members to discuss and review and so forth. He gave some speeches. All of this is pretty widely covered in a meeting at the time so the plan of material, more than enough about the Birch Society itself, which i do we think you the story to explain how and why the name of birch was used. Im going to slip any question, cochairs prerogative. Im surprised about the difficulty in finding a publisher. I find it absolutely engaging story. I mean it held my attention from start to finish and judy recover a john birch very different from the one who was appropriated for in your telling ms. Appropriated and put to political use. Thats what the question is about. Theres another way of reading this and this is about robert welchs millions inappropriate in this figure john birch and impressing it into Political Service after his death, with the assistance of a mother. Said john birch might not have been a birch are but mom was. So she is as a facilitator providing with material that allows birch to do his version of the biography and seems to competitive the brothers expressed some doubts later on, shes the transmission belt and she gives a golden seal of approval. So this could be read slightly differently as kind of a brilliant political act on welchs part. It takes some raw material, embellish it and you are insisted upon way by family members and even by the independent baptists who were chronicling in an exaggerated way john birchs own activities earlier. Even from the start that it is a fictionalized john birch, kind of accompanying the real one. Right. I think you put it so well, and the mother, ethel birch, as i mentioned earlier, was frustrated, angry, and bought into this idea that there was conspiracy about her sons death. So she was very much open to welch. Welch, i think the other reason that welch last latched onto this was simply because the story was not widely known. It was because this figure of birch was so anonymous in a way. It really was, he was not a major symbol. He was not a household name. And so that meant for the purposes of robert welch that the image of birch was malleable. The image of birch could be appropriated and used for these political cold war anticommunist purposes, and essentially nobody would really know the difference. And so i think that was at least part of the strategy, part of the thinking on the part of robert welch, in addition to the fact that there was the china connection, which loomed large in the american political imagination, as well as the way in which this pointed to evidence of conspiracy. But i think youre saying something very important, and that is why pick somebody who is so unknown . In reality of course it should have been called the robert welch society, not the John Birch Society. I think the fact that john birch was an unknown was actually attractive. When welch establishes the society in indianapolis with a small group of Business People in 1958, he says to the group im not going to talk much about john birch. He says basically go read biography that ive written and you understand why i am using his name. The gentleman on the left. Just a little bit of a postscript speak your name . Bill brown. Retired from the cia. I do consulting work out there every now and then. You have probably seen in the big lobby the star, the Memorial Hall to people who die from cia. Speak in the microphone speed up one side of the hall theres cia people who died in action on the other side of the hall theres one star, one big star for oss people. Theres a little book underneath it listing oss people who died in action. Something like cold war, the cold war period. After id been talking to terry about this project a couple years ago, i asked for storing, well, i looked at the book. Its just one page of oss people and, of course, john birch is not listed. So i asked the cia historian, i said, why isnt john birch on this sheet . And she said, you mean john birch . [laughter] i said, yes, john birch, the oss officer. I dont know anything about, i think you should investigate. So she did. She investigated, emailed me back about two weeks later and said, bill, i think you are right. Do you want us to the john birch at the top of our list . After all, the First Casualty of the cold war. I said, its not my business, but yes. She said you should put in the form, and i said i dont think im the person to put in the form. You should talk to the family and see if this was two years ago. I was there a few weeks ago. Still not on the list. [laughter] she said effectively, i said why didnt they put it on . She said, its political. Just a second commentary though. I was in china in october. They were giving me about my grandparents who have lived there for 40 years ago with bob hill following the tv crew and i stopped at this great site and the tv crew says, why are you looking your . I said this is a great site of john birch. He want to talk about that . No, i dont want to talk about that. They said please, talk about that. I said its too political. [laughter] spent okay. Great story. The job with all the weight in the back. Spee1 if i did write this book. Im from the state department and everybody of a certain age anyway, boomers grew up am a John Birch Society was a really big deal. A big piece of folklore. Gentleman this on the chad mitchell trio . We are the John Birch Society, stamping out the reds, we would use our hands and hearts but we must not use our heads. [laughter] it was terrific, but what do you have any interest i kind of love it, i though such a symbol of ultimate right wing. We would they stand now . We would they stand now speak with smh and theres a lot of consistency with todays tea party politics. If you look at their website today you will see that its still very much about strict interpretation of the constitution, states rights, opposition to gun control, opposition to abortion, opposition to federal income tax. You know, the litany of conservative issues, and so there is i think an interesting connection even though we live in very different times. Whats intriguing is the way the Birch Society is treated at the time by William Buckley in the National Review and Barry Goldwater who felt that because the Birch Society had become so notorious, there was the acquisition of eisenhower been a communism is that welch had to be read out of the commonest, out of the conservative movement, echoes of mr. Trump, right . The way in which the conservatives today, a National Review, for example, has said all trump is not a real conservative, he should not represent the conservative movement. So theres some kind of interesting parallels there. Goldwater went to, and buckley as well, went to some pains to say many of my best friends are members of the Birch Society and they are upstanding citizens, respectable americans to the robert welch should resign as head of the Birch Society. I cant help but be reminded of the use made in a different nation at a different time but i think it was at least a nazi. Do you want to come at . No. I believe that as a comment. Any other questions. Yes. Wait for the mic. I stumbled on this lecture so as not in my budget it but i believe that i am here. Very fascinating story, thank you. Im interested, what happened to those three americans that wasnt detained by the Chinese Group at the time he was killed . Right. They were taken in. Asmh and it took them two months to make the journey. It was very arduous. Thursday to report about their experiences and they observed that territory they were passing through. One of them had some very positive comments about the communists. Others were more negative. Two of them were officers. One was an enlisted man. When they reached the town, they were apologized for the death of john birch. Said we are very sorry this happened to it was an accident, very tragic, we regret this. Then they flew directly to chongqing. They were debriefed and then they went to india back to the united states. Im sure they were told not to talk about this incident. It was too sensitive at the ti time. I remember driving across the country when i was quite young and seeing those billboards impeach earl warren your i wonder if its a bit more about the society so. You said was popular. I be interested in sort of how large of a membership it had and we are. I mean, welch himself was in massachusetts which, of course, is not a blue state but was it a stronghold for the society . What other parts of the country tended to be areas of interest for the society . The epicenter for the Birch Society and for right wing Political Movement in general was Southern California. The Defense Industry was growing there after world war ii, aeronautics industry. And there were many people who are moving to Southern California from the midwest and they didnt have deep roots in their local communities. So Southern California was really what a lot of the action took place at the majority of the membership in the western states, texas, through the south, but there were ardent members in other parts of the country. A woman named clare connor has written a book about her parents who were devout members of the Birch Society in chicago. Her book is called wrapped in the flag, and she describes how they organize meetings in their home. They would stand up every couple of weeks and start the meeting with the pledge of allegiance to the flag come and they would watch films or discuss articles, events of the day. So it was really quite widespread. Professor. Very quick when of that. When i was teaching in 62, our congressmcongressm an was a member of the John Birch Society. [laughter] they were to congressman that ive been able to identify that were members. Birch didnt believe in institutional politics. He didnt think that was really, he thought it was a part of the establishment part of what he came to skip as the insiders who were conspiratorial, an many of whom in his opinion were communists. And so he did believe the most effective thing was to advocate at the Grassroots Level to infiltrate, if you would, Parent Teacher association, pta, to investigate books in public libraries, to operate at the local level. I am a trade lawyer but i begin like her as an s. Oh oh a state. You mention the general new fisherman john birch. Wasnt his wife angie, werent they involved with committee, 1 million or something, and they did they get involved in any way in supporting the John Birch Society and this legend of this young mans . Chennault as you say was very close to birch. It was a Mutual Admiration Society as far as the two of them are concerned, but chennault, even though as you also say, was very close to Chang Kaishek and became a strong supporter of a nationalist of taiwan. He never joined the Birch Society. Largely because chennault died of lung cancer right about the time the Birch Society was established in 1958. So chennault wasnt around to take part in debt. Im not sure that he would have in any case. [inaudible] and national was very active for many years and chennault in the socalled china lobby. Chose not a member of the Birch Society, nor to the best of my knowledge was William Noland who talked about birch. Holbert wedemeyer was on an Advisory Council for robert welch, but he came to believe that welch had misused or misrepresented the facts about the death of birch and investigation of birch. Wedemeyer felt it was no conspiracy, there was a coverup. So wedemeyer wrote a very testy letter to welch saying i dont want anything more to do with the Birch Society. I am resigning my position as an advisor. We have been talking about birch in a political context or what about a religious context . Is he an important figure for them . There was a biography of birch britain in the early 1980s by a conservative christian couple. They did have some new material. No footnotes, no documentation, but they did go into some more detail about birch. However, they made virtually no connection between john birch and the John Birch Society. So i think they were christians, in fact there are conservative christians who do feel that birch is an important person as a missionary to china, is part of a larger movement. I dont think a lot of people who know this historic but there are some at least they do apprec