Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Collapse 20141

CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Collapse December 25, 2014

Reeng t wl s a accinta cbiti o scmucaonyhe et geanovnmt dhe efrtofitenfr et d stern. Iss ouone r. Re, elthk u mh fo miu t h abo ismangene llsethacdealpeng of t berli ll. I m ryele roe. M rmivina arme clatt i avising pesrat hrv haar i wa gat t be rvd d ithcarie mmitwhe wrethi bo. Ers mere rouesr ateld wtehi b. So tnsk um oeans tisabutrins o ts bo, e ass atheoa anat allhaso d wth, mypriookcaled 89 e ruleo ea ptld rerophe the oks actllinhe rersrder 19al wh e ren litheaulttheal o ectul bein ll. Bli heolps i outthe fall ofhebeinal thnebo ia pruel. W did athan . Y th bk as citen t foigpocyhafoow t ok of thbein w. Eneroi t tbotas wod t aday acienal engfheein wll. An oenou ntveet toh sntnc. Somebyodnterrtend y, tmeou wht do u mnhecdta opin o tebia . At wshpit vrson soetes aoo yuen storn dont yno tatridt rega oenedheeinal e h wnt t brln je of19 a sid m. Oracv, tello te wll tath llpe iot tatutn s mny tme eiz tt ia n a effutn tttas a depl hldee here. Ers ctaly aaoon th n yrkrbt it. Ita mn reain aai te to hsahr, a i c is te fllg,ea dnh one oeiaiohetr dotame, ah al ve hpi erfr. Uno whotnen it on w yrkrao auulhon. Touhtor te th tairryfh fll ofhahehle goodook i englshbt tis pi iea germn. I lve ieia ihg if ddntea gmn, wh wod i rdnni . Tho iood,eaze e wsone godoo o th oenng o te wlln enlih. E t mre i touht aout rlizedha ooo o thisack on acurat cntame tnu storanrt. Th blifhhenied stte sng hndidle oen th wlafct o u. Rgolyo tsay. Hs te eec oanh unedtas tinhat sigl hnddlpeth wll thili ad ltle cst andaeath gneal ro,reio bghad whchas fqutayng i wahingtn i 201 al gveito a vry trumha aitebt th rnal ,o emp, aheeoge. W bshrintliary, you sehistue oors stuefoesaong e cnk o teei wl, on thermfhe amic wldevh beinal esilar sate t te nadeanredetil br its mhilra f, siglan oh bllha i prncsss io tink aou th eyeatringre o ral esten suter cliora, y sddnl rei how mht a anr hllop i deicedo thiemia itsa ohral ragn edeia lbrry send ls hsra ste ,he a jst t o t mish estnh une sats. Threr myofhe e on mssur,umr shgtn,c. Eill eboimntfheee a t ut sats ope th wl. T aho o tis een a n reat. An wn i atull lokd t e eidnch ictll tvw t pop woer er tata nhe sor i w. Thre aangnni, cs h mnyaer th oengfheei wll su sccss sooa terrea, mny fahes,ndorhe 2h 25h nnerry cido yoet te atulae dotrs o t eenpk inhr o vices. So tan ye mcho tain t tme t cmeu toig ad hlpe tllhr stris. Te sll tlk aou fmos op fr muto set te nx ofose teoext, teol ronxt tuppoer contetasrilmptant. Tn imoi t tllo abtheilfhe oenng tal cllgh. E cnttee mkhail gobahe,heef t vi unio tme mgainsan hee,imaze m the dad maof tean9 aan ofheed i19 ahe wetnohe nbe pac pre an auer ootrwds heam t pwe anited rerm ma ceah svi tks wold stooin itoae euop, aha donen pond a hngyndas gemaynha. Mdele h wntd rfo oe trrf t dy. Thaastngo oen th wll. Itrte teoilyh itan on bot tca reliyfhe opi. O cure a wthis amrin cunrpt pesdet nadeanndredet ore w. U, w pevus bcong peside w c prsinteorgh. Bhnd rean, and h h aeesf mteis wh nd regan bthid ntel inn aeen tp t wal,vehohhghhe r aremets aouar no ih pesdet or w buho ofi i nry 199,tus o tt hdnnre dfen tu. A wsnefheies risfyeah,a dicoerghea tath buh amiisraio wen yu tda imaibo gergh. Bh,h41 41t reidtfhuned at, othonogrg w bshh4d pesdef th uit ste egr wu tok fe,vhg iuic thyai vyinhgsbo th darnridt ragn, ineralyheo w vy diert sonrl, esde bh, wheneo ofin9, esnal sepdn te brke. Ad h tm touht tt gobahe mhto b frea an mghern t lllhe itdtent flsee scutyn tey dna brp b t rse thea tnyhc ha fore bteod b spse wh a snge ulet dh sieniepe te caabliyo dstoyhenied as soitr w,itreas ker fe, ethay te stasha. Eew bhe tughe ed tee wy o hp. Teew bhe dcido ay cea hus iac wa. Potil sieti aen a inerstd teio o th prid, jstntert i th chnim o plica trnsti,oow one pridtldntrio swch tnh,ti isrsi fomeao us aneo hstlever, asauit a eeras pt ithe bsh amisttn o,ir erod an t ierliui ow w. Cty bkeaed aou rega hlderho we inaplef tinnghings aa,hehiina msh dhueaeeo reto aeran scuty so tsnnsref amrin svit rpracen coes toa uerhe bsh anrtn soesot mki poges o panopheei wl tr mate o fctt sare acuay eed te pctef anua smmtsi gorbchv. Imsike aew cll i reurin t teo wr, a en enorrhtinlyn epn aue o 189 thre ares roghut cha. As mti nibbeiin ue,inh harofei, er cinsert sudntui aodssfecryho stesoa ihfaen tinienqre os w vit tqre kw istui n lge ter oue,n june98 t peplsliraon amytt oi a t pope. Es tqr efose theaus imgefowf tks hltg iln fon oha aan wh iownosana lo dmostatr ho iso hale ayo nt n wer. Eae i t smmer o 19 ads dplcy i lkeouorh rmand m tko kep te if anenni i tanme uenou hds beno te edigf te bli ieel bhe pop i i tal abt,heele t sretsonnoh. Th iag tya i tei n o tanen suae. Ereer aradha t prctcefoustem usngoe t dfe isefs soetng tat wl b rpete cld wrup a wl. , teyont kow ih i gongoaeno temro ,fou can jteeha kidf sns o unriy i yo mneisabo t re ohe eent wlel yo udestdhe mntlod dom ws t couagf t oe i dscibg. T smmr o98 ter r o cureres i resel thodiomt poan uereeh o elctcanc, hsri cotiuecosttuefor i la. Itas arualra blin mveenfrree acosaeup ahe sumef9tet te liem tgr tem freltns m fee. Itelctlli oh 10 stst alod to ntt. Ttas ttl sar pwe wihhous rgie. Itee leh mghe th woar vylo pocshe t fmsr o hndldu ila theor. Atit bohgos aer eop bu tnothg vry epete pn th hngrinem i i sonrte i rfo,he hugaiaem did tu le i te ion cta. It olyor i o cize. Did t on te rdr fouarns trs ito si whth dot aticipa i thttrasupes a st grmnsi t tonk ou trohhe hes as wll an t hngrinoren i bondy tat tas grmny n leta grmsu it cnly mkehi dciio fo itswn citien. Fstt hs t rstaind n bkh est grmsnd do sit fcend thers ennas grm wosie inrtfis wfen cil augutf9,rygoet ou vaua. Dtecesug csind th wst grmnhcl, lm kla t t ladr hgr i hvern w nas u lheaeau d myan wllee gd o te hngrieared toe te etea o i ptbe o 189 ane st gma bnk imeial afterward aeer vy gd unry aakos t hugary. ,ow tersol i t irn crtn. A iaen i est gemasre gngoh trogh e sq sovca tspe vi bk ioes grmny whel o pope gngow dproa grmnyo t eoovia tou hngy d ckp ioeea, dhi ofirshea rn rem esehseesbledng eh so taserneme tie cok ofretoua, andhanel ew crishhs rfuee plig i te sternms i ae tas grmnaiak eesno sl te boer tasean te. Isur ot oe hge mitae. Ur et grmnyn eu cke threshr oi ude ctspha hlp eplin i. Coin t teofouiv uneriariou baiclyav trehce h toouc yur le. Loaly,x,roe an wthes i ethr u cn jsteol adu tpi d iot cmpai, an syuiet icadaedungon peio ia grmisry y c eit yo cn t t fee aohe e bdeped,eee huarn aor, sddly extemen oti. E wnhas grm rgie ad fasea, eit waidwndol sme no lng terl s tnl reaiin optinasoer ost ansohe sar b sveres,arcuary tohn prtf est gean rgi hsticl noet sxoy,eus pp ha ben tyig t g t ecslvaian hngynd ge suc tre elho heinp ethg,ut eerhi taen evytng tyan i to oksanhrhire tey eeu a a n gin t go hme yuar t sen this gn hug nmbrsfres. Thye prtcurllgin i cy, teif lipig ainany rli tsit ardo eheex yu. N ndo sh eac wods ifourentesdnhe tl felr t buhe bok. Tet m jt pinu ae isooer ur seioa hern th cityeer thti res wre al meieala ws i ad en w tnowtasued ino rgo. Rshe mn tintip r wh sarsoae i te t o lipig ar t b lgerest eil curh,nhe presr ceutf te e met at thco t gthrerathe sua, dhry te a fr odheioad, aoudh cy oezi a pssblnd th picnd estea sere eploys o tem i kepaeng ainn a aheoc asg cangelfionc ad r popehoupnhe u reiolee at bom pe tvyenvve thth nht ocb 199,cb 9 i gngoe thhoow,ndne ohe gsturesn m sr ihgn hs m pridalyelan aleay itn bokbo i on oerh bggstures whnotnheeet lierds, laloc cds taeaeme wa panin aiinel en i lipignheigf ocobr tm. Gueu twadsht wet ot. Machiesue ot. ar ta eaclyow nyut aet,0ery rs dpled sbl or0,0. Hopialtfero t cme in bin eralders st sffa laves ncle. Hlsiie kds erl buinse snt popeom r. Eeme pevte fregn jonas fmongohe ciy bau tyita th wrl shher ain th dssen ivoeded th nede d tohgs o r teyeed th u i sv nmbsohh reotfi an sfe iue i hge ct irdoet aar arnd th rgi a pssbl. Oe sal gupf diidt dcidhe suld setnls e soudr ti wta hapengohoae wt haped,f ias boohe n mate wt ten wrl wul se it tyo flmioase ansein sugletutnhe m inhm o dinh wsh ner pozeor toorui ofhho it a eteaneet le pot tenioi knwldg o pmii. s actullar o sie wolod etesilyy th scrtoc a hutt to me, amot lkeavg werdiyfou o le yu dtreeuhe mpteer oiay vesor mta a phto heseefhr riaehos heee iga. T hsac t t cer dow hesnh riaeho an te ras t sekri poceoodim heced eay t fghhemeas wihnrtn. Httangio sstsf evinmt us d hum rgh ausn stte suglinghe ot t th wt,o fiedn t st wooed a aweer teevsiti. Dhh wulh b oca. And trn htwaely gd tis so ia h acualyasai so mh moey i tes aid journalis h owedasnis og wc bca aroem beaueisrndad t p i fo h. D sre plie re usatdyhean tiesndh olyeo e ddnt pt hm ia i thy fgud houn sb bai a mh trbl b h ahe ws casig. E fgudea t he doen oelrsoiy inlungee iteigc agnces ad teyedehe wodoo hmnnrrat hi b n aretimeus th wntoahim mti wihi hlpersot cul rth a wl. E pobm shely w i tsosy o sw o th hpfwo oerrind he scrtole ul onl flli vu wultdnh cortar oie builin an foll huteeret wi t hlpves din kowh 0oe lve cnsan fr o aret and costtear tat tiv en o meoonim arou wul sea h cer, bu iitae tht sri ihealf 199. So ihe fall o 189 ocobr thhe lve i rn a a fie g t lipg did ohe rof o chchnheohn c eino aoudh cty cetefez. A teirnd a gahei t mrc,th sal cou dwnnion ngn ahc rfnd er tihaves gogo hppn,nn te od,hrotesrssme anomhig aazgae. Spitevyenongh i wsoi t bh tinien ihe darese op we tr y sen e nte tnihts cin. Depi alfhatet 00 pploiy mre sh u tres dhem do epet a an tey aso minin sri nonc sohe ge n cse the seurty fceo atak,hh gd, bcaeherded idf yre aacdore alow ttck ineoe soh rgh 000 pope asemlend ty start to acos t rngo,omh loaloae tay mnd o te goud,on o wat to he ih pty cmmnd alea iomnehi exec te i crg tat nihtel w actullhe cdayectay. Ea w ws uposd t b hge ws tir pty serear, b he hd,nd i no mkihi u yuaot kth u hae i sik tatit dohe sco prt serear sdeyod hmslf hgfhiepymnt thetet,0 pssbl r ameen d t panas ihrm ntrot soph potst t curh,ha sph omatrig a mvigphe ri rad t panaso atac tm th ete kot shrpen i t rd. Dhedha w srt beaue te radoo sch shrpe tenrars haeo sow dn. Sohela wso ata hre theaser kotnd ahe crdfelettong tordheaste kothe co prt scrar sdy deidd eone t dnl did t clla beli aday a w ral gongoo ts . He itti toy hs i t u. Desogoae a blodt dh wlle ted rar cim o wrs hcasaei te a hch adene o t bi prtoes o te pon ana,ree ralyoi t dohi ndhshheresrs e aut5 mnuswro eaerknt,ndhi pa bsayllal yu bak. Dhe h dest dohendayea ofe,s te cowse rcsig,hehone flso rig,eginsoee i bin se up ase ard t reret. Coie o ttrr teea rve an s terier tes pll bak. Ssul bckut i ur tke y ctitck. So is cucalmrnth thresrs mntn nvleceecseh cul il he gttn sotf tey dnny wtcd bthe deelpmnt th dssenload rkd ry,ea teu evrye,eveon, intesainemys yi u oy nnvolce a or. ,it te prmssnf zgg iancayho aie ioriedol fom the nit. A hrid anhe ro o tehc thyao ieahhere gongo se, boda wth secuty fo oh. Llhow y teoa o a teyeongrnh rv [souing] [wisle [souin] wh teou ahtg isoe aybodypk grmn . A tros a sutg is rnor oi und oi tt t scuty rsn is atulyorng ash seengcrshe a gdul teery rsrettngsihr wean a jingnhe ost yo cneen a mmehe metas tow bcae eocn a rficy pihethen oen main aioh teysme we scrt plie aened e sddlya t dk. [shouting] whchnts sithi t er tele ua sh cmewa ld bcae teyern t coerphe lghnhe me t a void detext. Avoid detection. Can you sew where that was yep. So that footage was actually made from the reformed church on the northern, a of the ring road of leipzig on the night of october 9th. And the filmed the whole demonstration. Its so long, two hours. After that they wait for another hour because they dont want to be arrested as soon as the come down but finally they come down and are able that night to smuggle the video cassset out to west berlin where it is then shown on western television stations, announced as the work of an italian camera team to protect them. So that is hugely important. This is a still photo of the same event because two things have now happened. Number one, the regime has retreated and, number two, that retreat was broadcast, and both of those things are important. Both the protesters and their chroniclers are important. Because that footage is then broadcast back into east germany, other east germans throughout the country see and it are emboldened and start protesting in their own cities as well. Now you have a peaceful revolution in full swing in east germany. And gradually that those massive protests claim a victim. The very top boss, a man named eric hon nick kerr, is ousted. He in response to what i just showed you, wanted to escalate the violence yet again. He actually called for aerial attacks. In the second world war, dresden was fire bombed from the air. Unthickable even to his colleagues they would do that. So there is an internal palace coup and the top box is ousted. He is replaced by man who becomes head of the east german ruling regime, the socialist unionist party. And he takes over and decides to use a different approach because this approach of steadily ask lating violence is selfdefeating. He decided he is going to talk a good game in public, but not actually change much in private. So he is going to make it sound like hes going to copy gorbachev and institute reforeigns without actually doing them, and most importantly, on the night of november 9th in 1989, in divide berlin, he decides to announce some relatively minor changes to immigration rules as a soft to the crowds. The regime still retains its ability to control the movement of people absolutely on a whim. It still has the berlin wall. Still dart ted berlin wall. Nothing changed. The bottom line has not changed. Hes going to announce a reform that sound goods in public. But the problem is that, at the press conference to make this announcement, the member of the politburo who announces it botches the announcement and makes it sound as if the changes are real. And in the superheated atmosphere, where people are mobilized and energized, have lost their fear, this announcement has an amazing reactions. The politburo member making a mistake, that is nothing new. They made mistakes all the time. But in the context of a superheated atmosphere of 1989, people have an amazing response and decide to charge the checkpoints in the wall ask that was new. I find this amazing, the interaction between individual mistakes and broad societal forces and what happens is as a result of this press conference, thats the member of the politburo who mistakenly makes it soundathe wall is open before the assembled media, including tom brokaw, after he makes the announcement, people go to the checkpoints in the berlin wall. Let me just describe to you a little bit about berlin. You see a map here of the city of berlin. Also in my book. And west berlin consisted of the french, british, and american sectors, the soviet sector was east berlin. The west berlin had a wall around it entirely. Of course because all of berlin is an island inside east germany. This made west berlin the only city in the world with an exact outline viz able to astronauts but a the wall is fully lit along the entire helping at all hours of darkness. So west berlins outline was visible frontal outer space. To go into east berlin or jest germany you had to do to a check point. Those are the little dots. The key Border Crossing that night was this checkpoint ryan here, the northernmost inner berlin check opinion. Why that checkpoint . The other ones were in more design locations and the party had generally given the real estate nearby to secret agents, military officers, loyalists, people who wouldnt storm the wall. But the street is in a bad neighborhood, because there are lot of dissidents, actually where ziggy, the man who made the video footage, lived. He and his friend were among the first to go to the check point. When i interviewed his friends, other dissidents about the moment when they heard the press conference i naively thought they would say great things about the press conference. I would say, wasnt that a great moment when you heard the wall was open and the dissent would say, it was fantastic, i knew i had my freedom. Instead something very different happened. They said, that guy was an idiot but it was useful because it was leverage. We could make the Border Guards lives miserable. So they went to the crossing in huge numbers and made the Border Guards lives difficult. At the top it says overview of Border Crossing. The orientation is the same. So east berlin is down here, west berlin is up here. You come through the buildings here, the car lanes are over here, and this is the final guard post and the final bridge. And the man in charge that night, the senior stasi officer on duty that night is this man, Harold Yeager. Harold yeager is the man who opens the berlin wall. Harold yeager is an unlikely candidate for that title. He is a complete loyalist. Hes been working there for 25 years. He had an additional three years of service before that. He actually with helped to build the wall. I pulled his entire Service Record that still survives from the former stasi, and he had in all of those years of service one minor demerit and a rath of awards. A raft of awards. He said he believed the wall was tragic but necessary because if we had not, there would have been world war more, so it was world war iii. So this was a man who was very committed to his job. This was not a man who was secretly trying to bring down the regime. But in the course of that night, he finally, the course of that night he becomes the man who, as i said, opens the wall. So how does that happen . Well, let me go back to that image of the Border Crossing. He actually sees the press conference on television. Hes on a 24hour shift that started in the late evening and went through the night into the next day. So he watches television at the Border Crossing on the job. And when he sees that press conference, he cant believe it. He simply cannot believe it. He calls his superior officer and says and hes using some expletives that i wont repeat here he says what just happened . I have no orders. What did he just announce . And his superior officer says its business as usual, keep the gates closed. Then he calls back and says, you know, ive got a dozen people here telling me the wall is open. His superior officer saids business as usual, keep the gate closed. He calls back again, its getting to be more like a hundred people. His superior officer says keep the gates closed, business as usual. He told me, i interviewed him twice, he told me he made 30 phone calls over the course of the next four hours, and he never got any useful instructions. Only once did he get anything other than keep the gates closed, and what he got actually made matters worse. After hed been calling for a couple of hours, one of his his direct superior finally said im tired of your phone call. Be quiet, im going to patch you into a call with my boss so you can hear what im telling you is true. So he gets patched in, and he hears them saying this guy yeagers reporting hundreds of thousands of people, is he delusional . Is he an idiot . Is he even capable of assessing the situation accurately . And the phone line goes dead. This gets his back up. He thinks, you know, theyre going to call me a coward and ask if i can file an accurate situation report . And what they dont know is hes also going through a cancer scare. Now, it turns out he doesnt have cancer, but he thought he did. Hed had a number of tests, and he actually has a doctor appointment scheduled the next day to get the test results. And so for that night he feel

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