Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Collapse 20150

CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Collapse January 19, 2015

This turns out to be a huge mistake. It turns east germany into a pressure cooker. Theres a series of like to take leadership the lens why. If you live under dictatorship you basically have three choices as to how you conduct your life. Those our loyalty, exit, or voice. Loyalty, exit or voice. What that means is you can be loyal and put up with it and not complain and stay quiet which have happened during long periods of east german history, or you can exit, tried to flee. When the border opened between hungary and austria, exit became an option. When the east german regime sealed off these germany exit was withdrawn and loyalty was no longer tall there will. The only remaining option was voice of protest. Or start a massive protest, particularly in the southern part of east germany a region historically known as saxony. People had been trying to get to czechoslovakia or hungary just got stuck there. A huge number of people whod put everything taking everything they can ensue cases their children and theyre fed up and not going to go home. You start to see in this region huge numbers of protest. They are particularly large and his city which is a city in saxony. I realize this is a map from a book. I realize it might be hard to see the text. You dont need to see the exact words. Interested in details feel free to buy the book 11point out a few things. You see a ring road around the city center. That ring road is where an old medieval walled used to stand around the city center. This is the city of leipzig. It got turned into a modern multilink ring road. Heres the main train station. What starts to happen in the city, there starts to be large protest centered at the nikolai church. What happens is the protesters they meet at the church, come out, Capitol Square and try to get as far around the ring road around the city of leipzig as possible. The police and east German Secret Police stopped them. This keeps happening again and again and the police are using increasing levels of violence, more people show more violence, more people, more violence. The night of october 191989 is going to be the showdown. One of the biggest surprises in my research, i thought i knew this time period fairly well, but one of the biggest surprises when i got into the secret police records, the local police records, was that the east german regime was planning at the human level event in leipzig on the night of october 9. Guns went out, orders to shoot without. Sheen guns went out. Its hard to exactly how many but at least 8000 Security Forces deployed possibly over 10,000. Hospital staff was told the government, wring extra blood reserves. Schools gymnasts schools dismissed early. The regime prevented for chose from coming to the city because they didnt want the world to see what they were planning. The dissidents involved decided they needed to do two things. The first thing was they needed to show up in massive numbers to show they were not afraid. Safety in numbers is a huge factor. In order to get as far around the ring is possible. Another small group decided they should do something else. They should try to film what was happening so that no matter what happened, if it was a bloodshed the world would see. They should try to film a video cassette and smuggle it out to western media. The management you doing this was this man. I apologize for the poor quality of this photo. Its an east German Secret Police photo taken without his knowledge or permission. Its part of a series. He was followed extensively by the police as he pretended was like having a weird diary of your own life you didnt write because theres a complete record of Daily Movement most days and photos. Heres the series of photos. Here he is again with his back to the camera and that is another surveillance photo. The reason the police followed him was he was a man who decided the way he was going to fight the regime was with information. He had started making videocassettes of environmental abuses and of human rights abuses and he started smuggling about two the west a friend in the west and then they would be broadcast. It turned out he was really good at this. He was so good it does in fact, he actually was earning so much money and the west as a video journalist that he owed taxes on his footage which became a problem because his friend had to pray for him. The secret police were frustrated by this mans activities. The only reason they didnt put him in jail is a featured he couldnt possibly cause as much trouble myself as he was causing the a few together dozens of helpers come house including western intelligence agencies and decided they would follow him and carried him but not arrested because he wanted to catch him meeting with the thousands of helpers so it could arrest them so that the promise he was doing this most others and with help of about two other friends. So the police would follow him. They would stand in the court, five guys are so would stand and solemnly walked out the door but it went but he never went and helped with the dozens of people helping them. He lived in constant fear they would to steal his chemist but it didnt happen. That was crucial in the fall of 1989. In the fall of 1989 october 9 he lived in berlin. He and a friend go down to leipzig and behind on the roof of a church on the northern part of the ring road around the city center of leipzig. As their friends are gathering to march they basically crouched down in pigeon dunk on an openair church roof and prepare to film what was going to happen. On the ground the protesters assemble and something amazing happens. Despite everyone knowing this is going to be the tiananmen, in the diaries of people with her that night you see in the notes, tonight is china tonight is tiananmen. Despite all of that, at least 100,000 people, possibly more show up to protest. The regime did not expect that. They also maintained strict nonviolence. So they get no cost to the city forces to attack which is good because the order said if you are attacked, full out attack in response. The roughly 100,000 people assembled and they start to move across the ring road and the local commander the Party Commander on the ground doesnt know what to do. The Party Commander already do somebody didnt expect to be in charge of that night but he was the second Party Secretary to the man who is supposed to be in charge was the first Party Secretary, but he had and im not making this up, you cannot make this up he had called in sick that night. And so the second Party Secretary suddenly found himself in charge of this deployment of these at least a thousand possibly more armed men. The plan was if they could not stop the protests in the Church Committee cannot stop them from gathering and stop them from moving up the ring road the plan was to attack them at something called the eastern not which was a sharp bend in the road. The idea was that was tactically smart because the road took such a sharp bend the demonstrators would have to slow down. It would be easier to shoot at them there. The plan was to attack your at the eastern not because the crowd people start moving towards the eastern not the second Party Secretary suddenly decides community doesnt need to, he has command, decides to call east berlin and say are we really going to do this . He is starting to worry that he is being set up and he is going to cause a bloodbath and then he will be tried for war crimes afterwards or maybe even worse. The wiggles east berlin, recalls the head honchos and he gets one of the big party bosses on the phone and says, are we really going to do this . And this is what the protesters are about 15 minutes away from getting added to the eastern knot come and the big party bosses, ill call you back. And then he doesnt. Answer the second Party Secretary as the crowds were approaching, as the phone is going to ring begins to feel that hes being set up and at the last possible minute issues an order to retreat. Copies of that order to retreat survive. So as Security Forces pull back, although he says pullback but if your attacker then you can still attack. Its important the protesters maintain nonviolence because they could still got an shot if they had attacked by the to the dissident leaders worked very, very hard to lecture everyone, tell everyone, ministers have given sermons say you so nonviolence, and it works. With the permission of the zadie, i can share a piece of his video clip from that night. He and his front on the roof of the church but of the church but have no idea what to going to see coming around the curve. Is going to bloodshot, Security Forces are what. Ill show you the footage of what they see coming around the curve. [inaudible conversations] [shouting] so what the crowds are shouting is does anyone speak german . What the crowds are shouting is join us. They are shouting at to the Security Forces and it is actually working. As they are sweeping across the ring road graduate disagree forces are putting aside their weapons and join in the protests. You will see in a moment the camera starts to sway wildly because they notice on the roof directly opposite him other than openlyopenly making a video for the december secret police agents. At one point they suddenly have two doctor. [shouting] suddenly they have to duck. [shouting] navigenics switching to we are the people. You can see the camera sways wildly because theyre trying to cover it up cover up the red light on the camera to avoid detection. [shouting] can you show where exactly that was . Yes. So that footage was actually made from the reformed church on the northern part of the ring road of leipzig. They filmed the whole demonstration but its a long it took two hours to walk by and then after that they wait for another of because they dont want to be arrested as soon as they come down from the top of the church but finally they come down and theyre able that night to smuggle the videocassette out to west berlin where it is then shown on western television stations pronounced as the work of an italian camera came to protect them. And so that is hugely important. This is a still photo of the same event because two things have not happen. Not one, the regime has retreated, and number two, that retreat was broadcast. Both of those things are important. Both the protesters and the chroniclers are important because that footage is in broadcast back into east germany, other east germans throughout the country see it and are emboldened and start protesting in their own cities as well. Now you have a peaceful revolution in full swing in east germany. Gradually the massive protests claimed a victim. The very top box is ousted. Top boss. He wanted to escalate the violence yet again. He called for aerial attacks. Those of you know the history of the Second World War remember of course dresden was fire bombed from the air. It was unthinkable even to his colleagues that they would do that. So there theres an internal palace coup and the top boss is ousted. Spink is replace by men and aegon. He takes over and decides to use a different approach because this approach of stem escalating violence has proved be selfdefeating. He decides what is going to do is talk to picking and public but not actually change much in private. Is going to make it sound like its going to copy gorbachev institute reforms without actually doing them. Most importantly of the night of november 9, 1989, and divided berlin he decides to announce some relatively minor changes to immigration rules as a soft to the crowds. The regime still retains its ability to control the movement of people absolutely on to win because the berlin wall, still guards at the berlin wall. All of that nothing is changed atat the bottom investment change that is going to announce a reform that sounds good in public. But the problem is that at the press conference to make this announcement the member announces the member who makes announcement botches it. It sounds as if the changes are real. In the superheated atmosphere with people are mobilized and energize, have lost their fear this announcement has an amazing reaction. Dismember making a mistake that in itself is nothing new. They made mistakes all the time but in the context of the superheated atmosphere of 1989 it was an amazing response. They decide to charge the checkpoints and that was me. Thats one of the amazing things, the interaction between individual mistakes and broad style of forces. What happens is as a result of this press conference thats a member of the polit bureau domestically makes it sound as if the ball is open before the assembled world meeting including former journalist such as tom brokaw also interviewed for this book. After he makes that announcement people go to the checkpoints in the berlin wall. Let me describe to you about berlins we understand what happens. A map of the city of the bone is also in my book. West berlin consisted of the french, british and american sectors, the soviet sector was east berlin. West berlin had a wall around it entirely. Of course, because all of berlin is an island inside east germany. This midwest berlin the only city in the world that exact outline visible to astronauts because of course the wall is fully lit along its entire length at all hours of darkness. West berlin darkness. West berlins allied was visible from outer space. In order to go into east berlin or into west germany had to go to one of the checkpoints. Those are what the little dots or, the checkpoints. The key Border Crossing that night turns out to be this checkpoint, bornholmer street. The northernmost and her berlin checkpoint. Why that checkpoint . The other ones were in more desirable locations and the party have generally given the realistic new bug to military officers, to lawyerless, people who would storm the wall. Bornholmer street isnt a bad neighborhood because there are lot of dissidents. Its worth ziggy its where ziggy lives. When i interviewed his friends can of the dissidents about that moment when i heard that press conference, i first thought it was a great things about the press conference but i envision the end is going Something Like, wasnt that a great moment when you heard the wall was opened and the dissent would say yes, it was fantastic. I know have my freedom. But instead something very different. I said wasnt that great when youre the press conference . They responded no. Bad guy was an idiot. He didnt know what he was talking about the it was useful because it was leverage. We can make the Border Guards lives mr. Beck they went to bornholmer street crossing in huge numbers and made the Border Guards lives miserable in the. This isnt east german aerial photo of the bornholmer street Border Crossing. I apologize for the poor quality. Its not great in the original but let me describe. This is east berlin, this is west berlin. The Border Crossing is this whole, huge walled off area, a number of acres. If youre coming in as a pedestrian you get processed here. It is coming into the go you drive over your. Your car gets a check and then you come back to the final gate the final guard tower, the final bridge. Remember the final guard tower, final bridge and to cross over into west berlin. I have another schematic representation of the same image. This is an internal duty map of the bornholmer street Border Crossing but at the top Business Overview of bornholmer street but the orientation is the same. East berlin is down here west berlin is here. You come through the buildings the car lanes are over here and this is the final guard post in the final bridge. And the man in charge that night, the senior stasi officer on duty that night is this man to his name is harold yager. L. Gigot is a man who opens the berlin wall. Harold yager is an unlikely candidate for the title. He is a complete loyalist. Hes been working at bornholmer street for 25 years. At an additional three years of service before the. He helped to build the wall but i pulled his entire Service Record that still survives, and he had the knowledge is a service only one minor to merit and a rack of awards and promotions. This is a very, very low surface of the regime. He said i believe the wall was tragic but necessary because it would not build the wall there wouldve been world war iii between the soviet bloc and the west. The wall was bad but it was better than the alternative. He was very committed to his job. It is not a man who was seaglider and bring down the regime. In the course of the night he finally, the course of the night he becomes a man who as i said opens the wall. How does that happen quick so they go back to that image of the poor homer street Border Crossing. He sees the press conference on television to pay for 244 hour shift started in the late evening in with us tonight into the next day. He watches television at the Border Crossing on the job. When he sees a press conference he cant believe. You simply cannot believe it. He calls his superior officer and says using expletives that i wont repeat. He said what just happened . I have no orders to what did he Just Announced . His superior officer says its business as usual can keep the gates close to he he calls back in the eye of a dozen people telling the wall is open. What should i do . Business as usual keep the gates close. He called back its like 100 people. What should it do . Superior officers keep the gates close, business as usual. I told him he said he made 30 phone calls over the course of the next four hours, and you never got any useful instructions. Only once did he get anything other than keep the gates close. After you been calling for couple of hours, his direct superior finally said im tired of your phone calls. Be quiet. Im going to patch it into call with my boss why can have your what is true. He gets patched in and he hears them saying this guy is according hundreds of thousands of people, is he delusional . Is he an idiot . Is he a coward . Easy capable of assessing the situation accurately . The phone line goes dead. This gets his back up. He thinks, ive been working for 25 years and theyre going to call me a coward and ask if i can file an a

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