Said that it was called true crime but we wanted it to be a social issue and explain a creature like whitey could only exist in a certain time and place and pecuer pucular to boston because the irish were in control of politics, Law Enforcement and business. The influence of the Italian Mafia the fbi could create a National Policy to go after the mafia and use whitey to say they were being used to help get the mafia. This is a story with great sweep. And there was a guy named John Mccormick who was the representative from boston. Dot. He did because if youre an fbi agent your prestige, status within the bureau is based on creating informants. And Whitey Bulger was seen as a very high level organizedcrime figure. There was an ulterior motive. He wanted to protect the Whitey Bulger family. He was very close. So a lot of and you know, i think you all probably know that Martin Scorsese did a film, the departed, which is the very, very loosely based on the whitey character. But the whole story is about sort of the, how this could only happen. You been covering organized crime. I know you have been working in providence providence. Not only was elected as a criminal, but then got reelected you are familiar with these kinds. Oh, my goodness. [laughter] i actually have covered organized crime going back to the mid80s. Well he has the distinction in boston, it was the First Time Ever that the fbi had taperecorded a mafia induction ceremony were mobsters from around new england gathered just outside boston and burned holy cards and purge their trigger figures and vowed to kill anybody for the family. The interesting thing is that, you know, they play those tapes in court, we get to hear them. But this was like one of the big, major coups of the fbi in boston. One of the agents to have some of the informants who told them where this ceremony would be was John Connally. So has the story unfolds we find out that, you know, he is using Whitey Bulger and his partners, and other gangsters from boston as informants against the mafia. So we get to see how these cases that made heroes of the fbi, you know, late 80s, early 90s have really decimated the mafia in new england. Comes full swing. Now their relationship with whitey has overshadowed all of those successes. So it has been an interesting turn of events. The thing about boston is the million know, the fbi had a National Policy for targeting the mafia. And it made sense, but in boston where, you know, whiteys gang was just as powerful if not more so it did not really make much sense to use the head of that gang to target the italians. Im now getting barfield cards of mafia bosses from prison saying what happened. In the process of reporting on and is covering the story there were many oh my goodness moments. Can you talk about that . In the records. Well, yeah. One of the fascinating things about whitey, hes not hes a fascinating character. He has a very rich history. Some of you may know him as one of the fbis ten most wanted. He was on the ten most wanted list right next to a lot and until he was captured in santa monica, california couple of years ago. And living just a couple of blocks from the beach. It was quite a life, living at this with body was charlie gas bill from new york. One of the things that was interesting is he was a bank robber. He committed a string of bank robberies. He was convicted in 1966 and sent off to federal prison. And because he was involved in some escape attempts he ended up and out contrast which was, you know, the maximumsecurity federal prison for the worst of the worst. And much to our delight as reporters anybody who has ever done time at alcatraz, their entire prison cell is open to the public to see. You can go read letters that he wrote to his brother when he was in prison camino, what his life was like. Its just amazing to get this done to him as the man. One of the things, we have known him in recent years as this vicious, scary criminal killer. To see these letters, if youre in federal prison at least at that time your lab director and people. And whitey had a pretty big family. Six of the people or immediate family members and the other for all priests. Who else would a killer right to but one of the fascinating things is that political connections, so while hes at alcatraz his brother billy is law school. We can see from the records that billy managed to have manage to become his brothers mentor in prison. Receive these letters. And he was very big in the Prison Reform and believed whitey when he said, oh, im so tired of being the black sheep of the family. Im going to get out and go straight. You know, and he actually meant for him. He also used his connections to have at this time mccormick who kevin reference became the speaker of the house, a u. S. House. And because of the boston connections the speaker of the house, whitey is and how to address in the family is worried about him. As far as you can get his in the middle of seven cisco bank. House speaker mccormack called the director of the bureau of prisons and said, can you go check on jimmy Whitey Bulger and see how hes doing . So the director of prezs five sentences gets on the ferry in does that to the present, jimmy, how are you being treated . So its very interesting. Part of what was fascinating about reading the book was the debunking of the myth of whitey. I lived in boston are a lot of this time. Whitey was a gentleman criminal who was always nice to women. So can you talk a bit about the joy that you got in debunking the myth . The one thing we tried to show is how that came to be so widespread, particularly in south boston. Really goes down to when he was a young criminal and the late 40s and early fifties he actually had a car in this neighborhood. He grew up in the house. He had a car because it was a criminal. What he would do is drive around when he wasnt with is Jayne Mansfield lookalikes girlfriend he would be going prowling around, not looking for criminal opportunities petallides. If he saw an old lady trudging down the street with a rush receive a pullover and is also bill convertible, jump out, open the door and say, come on, get into the car. And she happened to be the mother so i remember talking in the 80s. A distraught described how people they used a top College Still talking, set out on the stoops and the project during house Summer Nights and just talk. Though, Whitey Bulger. All the old ladys committees and nice and man. The zero stops and brings me of members restored. So whitey was very consciously cultivating this because you need to be a criminal you had to have your neighborhood not turn on you. You have to have them not cooperate with the cops. So it wasnt so much with criminals it was important to be feared. Would not criminals it was important to be liked. So when we saw he spent his entire criminal career cultivating this image of him as the good bad guy, the gangster with scruples. You know, gangsters with scruples dont marry murder young women and hidden them maria women and hide them in graves. Dea agents, Massachusetts State Police saying that he controls all the drugs. And his politician brother lyle was go along with, why always voted for live in south boston came up to me and hit me in the chest with the figure saying youre printing lies about my brother. You would never get involved in drugs. We all knew was not true, but there was also no conclusive evidence. So one of the most satisfying cases in his recent trial, his own lawyers got up there and admitted that he made millions and millions of dollars from the drug trade. You know, his lawyer went to Great Lengths to say that it was only cocaine and marijuana. He drew the line and heroin angel dust. What a guy. [laughter] you made a comment that this could only have happened in boston. In the Legal Profession there were people known as triple eagles who had gone to Boston College is seemed as though that was also part of the police system, the political system and also part of the reporting system. A story stifled with i think there was a lot of difference, incredible difference. I would compare it to the catholic church. Like a said, i was on the team has been some many months, more than a year working on it. I saw no difference between the fbi and the catholic hierarchy. What they were doing, they were protecting at all costs institutions. So they didnt care what happened individuals. So the bishops didnt care that children were being raped. They just move the pen gas to different places and let them do with all over again because there were so obsessed with keeping the institution of scandal. And the same thing with the fbi. The fbi did not care that innocent people were being murdered by whitey because they did not want the scandal to come out that they have protected whitey and enable them. I mean, its not that the fbi looked the other way. They actually lied to colleagues within the bureau. There were agents and Oklahoma City were trying to the nail whitey for murder of a legitimate businessman and the agency lie to their colleagues and get that guy back on the streets of a good murder people. So to me its about the abuse of power and the idea that institutional core option, its not the peculiar to the bureau, not peculiar to the archdiocese of boston where the archdiocese of newark. Its peculiar the power. Can you talk a little bit about the individuals impact it . Your book is one of the unique books that brings out the victims instead of emphasizing the gangster. I think the one thing that was very important to us was not to sensationalize the story. I mean, this story is so amazing so many twists and turns and lives impacted that it was important to us that people understood that this, you know, the family, this was their life. It was very tragic. Last summer her charging him with federal racketeering for killing 19 people in the 1970s and 80s. He was convicted. The jury found that he was guilty of a 11 of those murders. They could not Reach Agreement on one. The others they just dont the government failed to prove. We will was difficult for these families is for years there was a lot of year. Even people who respected had no way to go. What was happening was people would get to the fbi and whitey would find out about it. Some of the murders were instances where other people when an informed that knowing that he was the biggest and form of all would be killed. In many of these people, as kevin said, some of these victims were buried in secret graves. In the story really did not begin to fully unfold and tell he went on the run. In 1995 he was indicted in boston on racketeering charge. Just weeks before the indictment in fbi agent who was then retired want him to run. So he took off. While he was on the run basically what happened is, you know, his codefendants were arrested began filing motions in court to find them if there were informants involved. The fbi was forced to publicly make checks that it is true, he was an informant. Some of his friends just couldnt believe it. One of the things we found most amazing is for the mafia, they just couldnt believe that he would be an informant. They could not believe that the fbi would be in bed with such a vicious guy. The fbi actually used as a freelance hit man. He would do jobs. So they were many of his closest associates felt betrayed and there were also facing indictment. They cut deals. Theres been a lot of criticism of the deals that were cut, but it was the deals that were cut that allows all these people to give really. But it also is will lead investigators to the secret graves to be deserted digging a bodies of people who had vanished in the 70s and 80s. There were six victims recovered for the families who sat through this a week of it was so important to them to be able to look him in the eye and see in one trial. I have to tell you, after all these years of people being so terrified of him, i think there was a real i dont believe in the word closure. And dont think any victim ever as closure. I dont know why the media uses such a word, but the families felt empowered to finally see him as this old man sitting there and child and having his day in court, finally being brought to justice. I also think it was so amazing to see some of these victims families get on the witness stand and looking in the eye, people who would have been too afraid to do that. My favorite part of this call we document the book, he is an el not racist and misogynist and fought like hell to get the first judge removed from the case to be the next as the cannon was a black woman. [applause] so every day he had to look up at this camino, remarkably educated. Ted, very nice africanamerican judge. And shes a hell of judge pierre be the last words in this case were spoken by her. She let them, a remarkable talk well we had gone through a lot in boston, the marathon bombings, the wet socks winning. She said its been a traumatic year and to try and figure for our city. You, sir, do not represent our city. Some people of treachery u. S. This myth the boston. You do not represent the city sits in the courtroom to sing, you go girl. John connally emerges as interesting figure. I heard him interviewed. He was arguing that the deal that the fbi cut with Whitey Bulger was that they could commit any crime other than murder. Steve funny. So then, it was saying, no, i wasnt the deal was for. He is now serving jail time on a harsher jail sentence then given weeks to actually kill people. In the and John Connally caused people to die. He is now serving a 40 year prison term faugh says in miami the really is travesty. He has become a scapegoat for everything the fbi did wrong. There were other agents. If you read the book you will see that there was a time when whitey was an fbi informant, the two of them are sitting down to these cozy dinners with fbi agents, swapping Christmas Gifts they treated him like he was a partner, not a criminal. And so there were testimonies that other agents took bribes, got money. One agent who was a supervisor and, you know, we believe cost at least one or two murders, he had immunity from prosecution and never served a day. Theres something wrong when you see that age to get up on the stand with immunity. We think they were worse than the gangsters. And he was crying and sobbing about how sorry he is and he now works in a soup kitchen. Everybody feels better about that. The fbi and the Justice Department, this was always about minimizing the expense of corruption recognized. Right now the fbi and the Justice Department want people 50 years her not to say, oh, yeah, those are bad kids gobble only one agent to prison. One of the things we show in the book, one of the real heroes in this case he made this thing get public, he identified a dozen fbi agents and supervisors to be believed could be charged with crimes. But the fbi and Justice Department let the statute of limitations run. There is an agent called me and said i would be murdered if we reported that while he was an informant. Nothing ever happened to him. One of the most shocking things in the book and it doesnt take a lot around, Steve Fleming in one of his reports that we went over told the fbi, im sorry, told the state police and the Drug Enforcement administration that an fbi agent who got in trouble for stealing the handlers at the unabombers kamen up in montana, i think his excuse was there were out in the trash. Whenever at throwing and was a put them in the trash. Anyway, john newton Steve Fleming said gave him and Whitey Bolger 40 pounds of seed for explosive which then they shipped to the ira. Presumably the Irish Republican Army use this stuff on a tax on military and Police People throughout the united kingdom. And when he called john newton and said, john, heres we want your side of this, this is with the delegation is. I didnt do that. Thats not true. Is followed was, what did you tell your supervisors anybody else in the Justice Departments . Says. Letter i was told he lied. But those antlers on. You too are actually the first people i have ever heard accused Steve Fleming instead of steve the rifleman fleming. The talk a little bit of gusty the rifleman. Well, he actually heard that nickname because he was a paratrooper with the 187 theyre born in korea. Thats where he got the name. On the streets of boston people would say that name came from somewhere else because he was a known killer. One of the interesting things when you talk about something being close to home, my father was a paratrooper in the same combat unit and had served in korea and did not know steve when they were in service. My father years ago was raising money for the Korean War Memorial in washington and meet Steve Fleming and sell some, oh, we have this group that is together with their wives. Scottsdale ariz. One weekend. We travel with their wives. We all get together. Steve joined the group. And im writing about him. Hes a suspect in drug dealing. Meanwhile, hes going to read these airborne retreats on weekends around the country. Im like my dad, this guy is like really bad. I sure hope he doesnt know your daughter is. Kinda scary. So he eventually figured out who are wise and i was concerned that there were getting a little close. It was funny because my father knew who he was. I kind of had this inside information. I found out that on the 50th anniversary of the airborne there was this huge celebration in washington, the group from new england led the parade. The general westmoreland was there. Steve fleming showed up at this dinner with all these, you know, highranking officials in washington with his go