Churchill said to kennedy he held out his hand and he said i am so sorry for your loss. Joe junior had died during the war and churchill was sincere and he said to churchill, what good was it all . Churchill looked at him unbelieving world war ii had destroyed in churchills mind hitler and mussolini and the dictators. It had saved democracy. It had saved western civilization so churchill thought. Kennedy lazed hatred at him. As booktv looks back at our 15 years on cspan2 we bring you programs from our archives. Erik larson appeared on booknotes in 2003 to talk about the devil in the white city. In the book mr. Larson tells the story of two men architects Daniel Burnham and. Or henry h. Holmes who played prominent roles in the history of 1893 chicago worlds fair. This is about an hour. Cspan erik larson, author of the devil in the white city, you write early in your book that this book is about the evanescence of life. Whats that mean . Guest really, what i was struck by, as the book progressed, as my work on the book progressed, and really, when i finally read the finished manuscript what i was struck by is you have all these people working so hard on this vast project, the worlds fair, and then suddenly, its over and completely forgotten. And they put their hearts and their souls into this thing, and then it disappears i mean, literally, from almost entirely from national memory. And it just seemed so theres a certain kind of sad aspect to that, i think, but also a very kind of kind of brave and bold, you know, humans going into the dark sort of thing. And thats what i mean by the evanescence. Theyre here for that brief time. Burnham the architect and his colleagues, you know, throw all their energy into building this worlds fair. They choose that course. The killer chooses that course. And both just absolutely roil the waters for a brief period of time, and then its over. Cspan break down the title the devil in the white city. Who is the devil . Guest the devil was a serial killer named h. H. Holmes. That was the name he typically used. He was in chicago in the late 1880s and 90s and actually used the worlds fair of 1893 as a lure to bring victims to his worlds fair hotel, which was due west of the fairgrounds, a short trolley ride. He was as bad as bad gets. The devil in the white city the white city was the nickname for the worlds fair of 1893, the worlds columbian exposition in chicago. White city arose because the central array of buildings was this massive array of about half a dozen buildings all painted white, so stunning, in fact, that when people walked into the Central Basin of the fair, the area around the Central Basin, and saw these buildings, that they they there were persistent stories of people actually bursting into tears, just sort of they had never seen anything quite so beautiful. And the nickname very quickly arose, the white city. Now, the fair itself was much larger. There were about 200 other buildings, but that central array is why it was called the white city. Cspan whered you get the idea for this book . Guest oh, long story. Ill give you well, ill give you the whole story. It actually started back in 1894, when i was a young man. laughter guest yes, it started back in 1994, when i read caleb carrs the alienist, which is a terrific novel about a fictional serial killer in old new york. And the thing that i loved about that book was its evocation of that long past time. And you can just sink into that book. It was a marvelous thing. I thought to myself i was in the search then for a book idea, and i thought, well, wouldnt it be interesting to try do a real historical murder, do a Nonfiction Book about a historical murder and try and evoke some of the same effects, some of the same sort of sense of the past . And so i actually just quite systematically began looking for a good murder to write about. You dont get more systematic than looking at my first book from the library was the encyclopedia of murder. And so seven letters in, i came to holmes. They had him under holmes. And i have to say, i read about him. I was not terribly interested in him because he was so overthetop bad, and i did not want to do a slasher book. I wanted to do something full of manners, something more agatha christieish. And so i continued looking for other things. I came across a murder in new york that had a connection to a giant hurricane in texas in 1900. I got sidetracked and that became my previous book, isaacs storm. Came back to the world of writerly despair, where i was looking for my next idea, and remembered this idea of doing a nonfiction murder, remembered holmes, still didnt want to do something about holmes but, you know, i had nothing else going on at that point. A lot of my ideas that i had started looking into had fallen by the wayside. And so i thought, ok, im going to look into the aspect of this holmes thing that i hadnt checked into before, which was the worlds fair, started reading about the worlds fair and fell in love. Thats what hooked me. But i realized very, very early on, like, in the initial conception of this thing, like, that first week, after the fair kind of triggered my imagination i realized that i didnt want to do, still, a book about holmes alone, nor did i want to do a book about the fair alone. But what struck me instantly is the real story is the two stories together. I wouldnt have wanted to do either alone. Its just the two stories together, this almost miraculous, in a dark way, juxtaposition of this heroic act of civic good will, the worlds fair and the effort to build it, the tremendous odds against effort to build it, and in the same place at the same time, this killer using this fair to do his equally outstanding work at killing. You know, it was just a marvelous juxtaposition, too perfect to ignore. Cspan has anybody said to you that they couldnt wait to get through the chapters on the fair to get to the next chapter on the murders . Guest no. In fact, its interesting you ask it that way. What i have found is that people almost universally have entered the book thinking, oh, im going read im going to like this mostly for the serial killer, but they come away liking the fair part much better. And theres a very simple reason for that, i think, and it has to do with the technical aspects of narrative. And that is that the burnham side of the story Daniel Burnham was the architect who built the fair, who led the effort to build the fair. The burnham side of the narrative is a classic narrative. Its the kind of thing you might find in fiction, although, of course, its real, because heres a guy who takes on this monumental effort against all odds. And truly, that was the case. I mean, when i started the book, i had no conception of the things, the bad things that would arise to try to stop this effort to build the fair. I mean, you know, the week the fair started, the nation entered one of its deepest, worst depressions ever, the panic of 1893. And everybody expected that that was going to destroy the fair because nobody could afford to come. That was just one of an array of, you know, half a dozen really serious things that could have upset the whole thing. So its a classical narrative. You get into that story, you get into the fight against all odds to build this fair. And even though you know the fair occurred, youre still, like, wow, are they ever going to pull this off . Its kind of like the allure of a book about the titanic because you know its going to sink, and yet theres always that little question mark as youre reading through, oh, is it really going to sink . You know . I dont know why that is. Its a marvelous thing, i think, about readers, that they have this element of hope that, you know, even against all odds, still persist through a book. And thats what sort of helps us helps us drive a narrative. But that is what i found. Cspan but speaking of the titanic, it plays a role in your book. Guest it plays a role in my book, yes. Cspan why . Guest very interesting. Well, at the risk of giving away something that maybe i well, ill give it away. But interestingly, after the fair, Daniel Hudson burnham was going to sail to europe for a vacation, essentially. He was going to sail on a ship called the olympic, which is the titanics twin sister, really. At the same time as he was sailing for europe, his closest friend at the fair was leaving europe on the titanic. Cspan his name . Guest greg millet. And as he was leaving europe as Daniel Burnham was sailing across the sea on his own ship, his own opulent, the olympic, which really was. Cspan what year . Guest this would have been oh, gosh, im. Cspan in 1912 . Guest yes. The year. Cspan but it was quite a bit after the fair. Guest much after the fair. Cspan 1893, the fair. Guest 1893 is the fair. This is easily well, what is it, 15 years well. Cspan fourteen. Guest fourteen years, yes. Cspan that right . No. Guest and well, whatever it is. [laughter] guest and whatever year the titanic sank, it sank. We know that. Cspan its 19 years. [crosstalk] guest i know. I know. Its really hard being 49. [laughter] guest but what was really kind of uncanny about the whole thing was that Daniel Burnham was sailing toward europe. His best friend from the fair is coming back from europe. And for some unaccountable reason in his diary burnham talks about this in his diary he felt he wanted to send a note to his friend in the middle of the ocean you know, using a wireless. This was a big thing in those days because wireless was still a fairly new concept, and it was just this marvel to be able to communicate between two ships in the middle of the ocean, something that prior to, you know, say, 1905, was impossible so here they are. He gets this impulse to do it. And its not just something he makes up after the fact because his diary is done as hes traveling. So we see it in his diary before all this stuff happens. We see him sending this note. We see him hearing from the steward that he was unable to send the note, which is ominous in itself. And it turns out that just as he was sending the note, the titanic was obviously having its encounter with an iceberg. And this best, last friend of the fair was one of the dead. It was just a very strange moment. Cspan its 29 years . Well get it right. [laughter] guest whatever it was cspan in the beginning of your book, you have two quotes. The first one is, make no little plans. They have no magic to stir a mans blood, Daniel Burnham, director of works, worlds columbian exposition, 1893. Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir a mans blood. Why that quote . Guest why did i use it . Guest why, yes. Guest i think that sums up there are two quotes in front of the book, and i think they both, first of all, encapsulate something fundamental about the two men. They capture the juxtaposition that i think makes the book work, the fact that on the one hand, you have this guy who was devoted to creating hes devoted, actually, to civic good will, to the idea of civic honor. And you have this other guy who was devoted to murder, who was born to kill. So that quote, make no little plans, i just think absolutely sums up what burnham tried to do and how he thought. Cspan and the second quote we were just showing the audience is, i was born with the devil in me. I could not help the fact that i was a murderer, no more than the poet can help the inspiration to sing, dr. H. H. Holmes, confession, 1896. Guest right. Cspan who did he confess to . Guest well, that was one of many confessions to the police. And actually, that confession was a public confession made through the Philadelphia Inquirer paid for even back then, paid for by the Philadelphia Inquirer well, the Philadelphia Inquirer was just trying to make a stir and grab audience because, at the time, this was the single biggest story in america. Its hard to believe because most people know nothing about this killer. But they paid for this particular confession, and it was a long, long confession. I think it was Something Like 27 pages. It took up, i dont know, three or four full newspaper pages in the Philadelphia Inquirer. But unfortunately, like so many of his confessions and he had probably half a dozen confessions as revelations came out, he changed his story. And he would always seed his confessions with fact but also with a liberal amount of fiction. The funny thing is, this was really his last major confession. And in it, he claimed to have killed 27 people. Unfortunately, some of those he claimed to have killed were still alive and came forward. Many of those he claimed to have killed were, in fact, dead and were, in fact the police did suspect ultimately that he had done that. It is also assumed, by the way, that he killed many more than 27. My guess is probably several dozen over the course of his life. The new york world, in all its exuberance, estimated 200 alone during the fair, but i dont buy that at all. It just gives you a sense, though, of what people thought about this guy and how, after the fair, when he was captured, the suspicions of what he had done, how they just became just dominated the american imagination. Cspan the jacket says that youre married to a doctor and live in seattle and have three daughters . Guest yes. Cspan where did it all start for you . Guest where did what all start . Cspan your life. Guest my life thats a long story, too. I was born in brooklyn, new york, like half of the world, i think. And. Cspan what year . Guest that would have been 1954, in january. Cspan where did you go to school . Guest to college, i went to university of pennsylvania in philadelphia, studied. Cspan studied what . Guest and studied russian history, russian culture. Loved it. Loved it. And then was actually going to stay in try to get a job in publishing, which i did, as a sort of gofer, with the intent to kind of stay in the vicinity of writing and meanwhile write on the side you know, that kind of thing. And then made the mistake of seeing all the president s men, and thought to myself, i got to do that. I got to go down im going to bring down a presidency, you know . So. Cspan how old would you have been in, what. Guest that would have been. Cspan in 76 or 77 . Guest that would have been 77, i think, depending whatever the application process would have been because i was in the class of it would have been 76 because i was in the class of 7778, the one that got out in 78. So yes, it would have been late 76. But i think that dates correct. But so i went to Columbia Graduate School of journalism. I figured i was going to apply to one Journalism School and let fate take a hand. And if i got into that school and i was going to apply only to the best schools. If i got in, then the fates were saying i should be a journalist otherwise, i was going to go to europe and bum for six months. And so i got in and began my journalism career. I got my first job, came back to the philadelphia area because i loved philadelphia. I was in bucks county at the bucks county currier times, which is a great place to start for any reporter who wants to start out. And you know, as one thing led to another i had a sort of an unfortunate encounter at the paper and got passed over for a promotion, which totally annoyed me. So as is often the case, you know, when bad things happen, good things happen next. I just said, all right, forget it. Im done. Im going to send my resume to all my friends at other publications. And sheer luck struck, and i got a job in philadelphia with the wall street journal, which then had a bureau in town. And that sort of set me off on another course and. Cspan how long were you with the journal . Guest in two installments, i would say a total of seven years, seven to eight years. Cspan when did you move to seattle . Guest six years ago. Six years ago. Cspan and when did you write your first book, and what was it . Guest First Published book or first book . Cspan yes, First Published book. Guest first book was in the early 90s, and that was a book called the naked consumer. And that was a book about how companies spy on ordinary americans and the various techniques that these it was supposed to be kind of a funnyspooky book, although, frankly, given the things that the companies can do today and with email and the internet, i mean, this my book is nothing compared to what i could have written today. It was a wonderful book, i thought, and i thought it was going to be the next, you know, Vance Packard sort of thing, but it turned out to be critically ignored. And the public ignored it, as well. Cspan what about lethal passage . Guest lethal passage was i loved that book because it had a huge impact in the way Police Departments thought about how to go after gun criminals. I still to this day hear about hear from Police Departments, saying, you know, we love this book. Its helped us think about how to go after suchandsuch a gun dealer, and so forth. That was a book about one model of handgun not one specific gun but one model of handgun, tracing its evolution, how it arose from being a weapon designed specifically to be used by anticastro guerrillas for urban warfare in a place like havana, and how it evolved into essentially a massmarket Consumer Product that became the weapon of choice for gun gangs for drug gangs, and so forth, in baltimore and other cities. I had been living in baltimore at the time. One stop along the way. I had been living in baltimore at the time, and the thing i was struck by, reading about this was in the 80s, late 80s, reading about all of these driveby shootings, was, wait a minute. Where does a 13yearold kid get a weapon . Wheres he get a weapon like this . So i essentially traced kind of what i like to refer to as the forces, the cultural and institutional forces that conspire to put one example of this gun into the hands of a kid in virginia beach, virginia, who used it to kill a teacher, and trace all the forces that contributed to that the gun culture, gun laws, the nra, and so forth. It was very good, i think. Cspan and isaac storm came out what year . Guest that would have been 98, Something Like that. Cspan did it sell . Guest it sold great, yes. Isaac storm is probably going to put my kids through college. Yes, it was. Cspan several hundred thousand . Guest i think so. I think so. Cspan and this book, as we sit here, i know were youve been on the road, and this has been out for a while. What was the first day this book came out . Guest the first day would have been february 11, y