Perks will now call our second panel of witnesses. For this afternoons hearing. Ms. Marine hatteberg served at death for operations and management in the office off Justice Programs for the u. S. Department of justice. And doctor greta l goodwin serves as director of Homeland Security and justice for the u. S. And Government Accountability office. It is the custom of the subcommittee to swear in all witnesses buried at this time and ask you to please stand and raise your right hands. Do you swear that the testimony are about to give before the subcommittee is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth so help you god . Let the record reflect the witnesses have answered in the affirmative but you may return to your seats. We will be using a timing system today. Your written testimony in their entirety will be printed in the record. We would ask you try to limit your oral testimony to five minutes. This hindenburg will hear from you first, thank you may proceed. Now . Can you hear me . Thank you. Thank you Ranking Member johnson distinguish members of the subcommittee. Im grateful for the opportunity to speak to you today about our work at the department of justice implement the reporting act, and the ways we work with our state, local and tribal partners to improve course duration. Gathering data about deaths in custody necessary step towards transparent legitimate justice system. No more soldiers on split design in fulfilling this responsibility. Since the original statute was enacted more than two decades ago, the department of justice through its office of Justice Program is working hard in prisons and jails during arrest. They know this committee appreciates its a major undertaking to gather this information from 56 states and territories who in turn were lab reports with thousands of prisons, jails, and logarithmic agencies. We firmly believe that it is well worth the effort. While the need for reporting as im questioned by the, the current process deserves to be reevaluated. For many years following enactment in 2000, our bureau of justice statistics collected data called for continued to do even after the law expired six years later. All told, has published 40 reports on the topic. Which we have provided a wealth ofal information and causes of death, characteristics of facilities for the deaths occurred. Then in 2013, an update was introduced. Signed into law the following year the new law expanded the original. Mandated reporting by federal Law Enforcement agencies. And added a study arent focused on using data to identify ways to redo the address death in custody. Greatest consequent get the attorney general the discretion to reduce funding to noncompliant states under the edward moore of justice grants program. The attorney general gained the discretion to under the edward burn through the jag program, we provide over 273 million annually in funding for general purposes. Law enforcement activities throughout the nation. This last requirement posed a dilemma, as the federal Statistical Agency was per bag for any purpose other than statistics or research. Though the 2013 was wellintentioned, it has negative consequences for the state and local connections. For one, since it requires two have the department receive all information centrally from states, we can no longer collected from states as we once did. Second, the can actually has the potential to punish states and local agencies that comply with the law. For example, local agencies declined to report to their state, that states reporting to the department of justice will be penalty. Furthermore since these past ofe the state and local jurisdictions even the local agencies that fully report their information would feel the effects of the penalty applied. Finally we can no longer assign the collection which had achieved in nearly 100 Response Rate while it administered the program. We are working hard to achieve more comprehensive reporting from states and continue to provide training and assistance to states to improve reporting and we are developing new methods for the state compliance and providing feedback to improve the reporting. In the meantime we look to congress to help us improve the quality and completeness of data and have a proposal for how to do that. For instance we are asking too quickk to data from local agencies and open sources and enable us to restrict the funding penalty to agencies instead of applying it statewide. We are also proposing a new Grant Program to help better equipped agencies across the country to collect the report on deaths and custody. The death and custody reporting act is one of the many tools in restoring the full integrity of the justice system. The department provides tens of millions of dollars in resources to states, local communities and tribes to improve the way incarcerated people are treated and the efforts for the deaths to Law Enforcement training and programs focused on building Law Enforcement and community trust. Examples of the work are provided in my written testimony. We look forward to working with you to meet these challenges and i thank you for your time and exim happy to take any questios you may have. You are recognized for your openingw statement. Chair and Ranking Member johnson i appreciate the opportunity to discuss the actions doj has taken to address the Data Collection and reporting requirements in the death and custody reporting act of 2013 and the extent to which the doj has studied and used the Data Collected from states. As already discussed, enacted in 2014 to encourage the study and reporting of deaths and custody. Federal agencies and estates that receive certain federal funding are required to report this information to doj. Doj is to study the federal and state data, examine how the information can be used to reduce the death and custody and report its findings to the congress. In 2015 the doj began collecting data on the deaths of people in the custody of federal Law Enforcement as a fiscal year 2020 the doj reported 2700 and federal custody while the agency collects the same information of the state and local level that is not reported on these deaths. Doj began collecting information from states about three years ago. Agency officials tell us they plan to continue collecting the state data but they havent said whether or how they will use the information to address. The doj sites missing and or incomplete data from states as one of the reasons why they havent studied the state information. We found similar concerns when we examined the data. For example of the states that submitted data only two submitted all the required information. Some states didnt account for all deaths in custody. Using publicly available reports we identified nearly a thousand of that occurred during fiscal year 2021 that states did not reported to doj. For states didnt report any deaths yet we foundd at least 14 had occurred in those states. Hsdoj is a top priority for the quality and completeness. In 2016 the agency acknowledgedo determining would help improve the quality of the data and they have a goal to ensure they comply. However as of this month thseptember 2022, doj still hast aldetermined whether states have complied. R while doj collects data from states, they do not require them to publish the state data and the agency has no plans to do so. After the Data Collection efforts began, it discontinued a longstanding program that collected and published data on the deaths of people in state and local correctional diinstitutions. The morality and Institutions Program the doj used the data to publish reports and provide statistical information on deaths in correctional institutions. This published information allowed congress, researchers and the public to view and study the data while the mortality and correctional institutions report was made i publicly available, this report may not be available to the public. This lack of transparency would be a great loss in the publics understanding of death and custody. Given 1. 5 Million People were incarcerated in state prisons and local jails at the end of ea2020, statistics on death and custody are a valuable resource for understanding mortality in the criminal justice system. The doj has made progress toward addressing what it calls a profoundly important issue but significant work remains because right now expending resources to compile International Data set that may not be studied or published, potentially missing an opportunity to inform practices to help reduce deaths inin custody. We are Encouraging Congress to consider whether it should be amended to ensure they use the data that it collects from the state from recurring studies and reporting to congress and the public. Thank you doctor goodwin for your opening remarks and your presence here today. I want to begin by making sure that its clear what you found. I think in some ways it is the most powerful and alarming piece of data that you and your team unearthed at the request of the subcommittee that in 2021 you found nearly 1,000 deaths in state or local facilities that the department didnt capture and through the open sources, is that correct . The way that 1,000 breaks out to 990 but we said nearly a thousand so thees way that breas out is like 341 of those that we discovered were in state correctional facilities and so how did we get there, we basically used publicly available data. Some states when doing their statisticalhe reporting they provide that information. So we went through and we did as the roma fan analysis as we could to get to the 341 then the remaining of the 649 deaths again publicly available data in a couple of databases that collect information that happen when someone is placed under arrest or a death happens in custody so thats how we arrived at the nearly 1,000. But for the most part, a lot of this was publiclyy available data. One more thing i forgot to add for the 341 it was publiclyfo available data and we had access to some of the records and we went through and tried to do some matching. Thank you. Nearly 1,000 deaths uncounted last year alone. I do want to first of all just point out this is not a political or partisan issue. The cascade, the debacle, the decline in the departments ability to collect and produce High Integrity data has unfolded under multiple administrations. This wasnt a partisan issue. And we appreciate your presence here today to help us sort through these issues. Youve been working at the office of Justice Programs for 20 years and leading operations and management for the past seven, correct . Ive o been at the Office Programs for 32 years. Ive been part of the Leadership Team since february of 2014 as the Deputy Assistant for management the office of Justice Programs the bureau of justice anassistance at this time is overseeing the reporting from jthe states. Thank you. And as weve discussed 1. 5 Million People are incarcerated in state prisons or local jails. Thousands die every year. Why is it important in brief please for the department to study and report on the deaths inin custody . The department shares your goals, chair man, to improve the data being reported. The quality and at the completeness of the data it is extremely important. Its critical to understanding the deaths in custody understanding the relationship between deaths in custody and the policy practices of state jail, Law Enforcement agencies. I agree. Here are some quotes from the bipartisan members of congress, representatives and senators about the purpose. It would bring a new level of accountability to the nations correctional institutions. It would provide openness and government. It would bolster Public Confidence and trust in our judicial system and it would bring additional transparency. Do you agree that these are among the purposes of the Data Collection . The department agrees thate, there is a critical value in all of the data to collect the data from the states to analyze and present findings so that we can better understand the deaths in custodys and we can determine whether there are strategies to reduce these custodys. Thank you. The bureau of justice assistance, a Component Agency within the office of Justice Programs and those that are tuned in across the country will have to indulge and tolerate some acronym chaos, but the bureau of justice assistance unstarted collecting state and local data in 2019. The bureau of the justice statistics, which had previously collected the data for two decades. The Data Collected produced a report in may of 2021. It identified as some significant issues that they didnt capture anyth state or prison deaths in 11 states or any jail deaths in the district of columbia. From december of 2019, they missed mustat least 592 deaths. Weve seen the underreporting from states. In 2013, states are having to collect data from their local agencies and they are centrally reporting. The states are reporting great challenges. I think the report will show this and weve heard of the same thing from our states. The states have low leverage to compel their local agencies to report the data. Thank you. I appreciate your perspective on the state and local issue. My question is a specific one if you will please. When your statistical office, havinge reviewed the First Quarter of collection undertaken reported to omb and to the department that they missed of the state and prison deaths in 11ow states that from october to december of the first period when undertaken this collection of 592 deaths was that concerning . Its a very concerning that thee is the underreporting and its widespread across all the states. Thank you. It was concerning. So in response to the findings, what did the department of justice do to repair and improve its Data Collection methodologies of the projects wouldnt persist . They were focusing on fixing the problems that we have and the obstacles that we have reserved with. We are presenting legislative proposals to amend so we can address issues we believe are contributing to the underreporting and having states serve as the central reporter is certainly. You will have to forgive me, but we are trying to understand with precision what unfolded in the department that led to a significant decline in the integrity of the data that the department was collecting. I am looking for a precise answer to a very particular question. In the first few months, when bj took this over from pjs, they continued to collect and then compared the data sets. The folks who specialize in this raised a big red flag and said what they are doing isnt working. My question is with response to that specific information and warning what action was taken to improve the methodology . Thank you for the question. I think its important to describe when collecting the data they were able to go directly to local agencies, local correctional institutes. They were presented with working with states central reporters which is a significant contributor to the underreporting and incomplete data. Theyve worked with a training entity provider providing direct Technical Assistance to the states to review the data that is coming in and identifying ways tote improve it. Weve provided the trainings to the states and oneonone Technical Assistance to helps them think through the Data Collection strategies and identify areas where there is underreporting so that we can we dont have unlimited time and im not getting a precise answer. I have to circle back and yield to Ranking Member johnson and i will return for a second round in a moment. Could you bring your microphone a little bit closer to your mouth . I want to know how many people are working on this with of the department of justice . The bureau of justice assistance is a grantmaking agency, so the primary function is grantmaking. No, how many people are working on providing this data . Is at ten, three dozen, how mano people . I do not know the answer. I will go back and we can look at how many people. I want to know how many people were working in the bureau of justice statistics and then i want to know how many people in the assistance. I want to know how many. Ms. Goodwin, when you say you got publicly available records, what are you talking about . Deathas certificates, or reports that states and local governments just published and you were able to tap into those . Its a little bit of both. So, for some states when they report deaths, the information shows up in like an endoftheyear statistical supplement so we went through those. At we basically did a Google Search to see what we could find. How many people did you have the gao take a look at this . Two. What length of time . May to september. May of 22 to september of 2022. s of about five months. I had to do my fingers. So two people and with two people working for a few months, you determined that we were missing close to a thousand death reports because you had to dfind open source reporting basically. A lot of it was open source data reporting and publicly available data and some of the databases that do collect this information, theca nondoj. Did you know approximately how many deaths occurred in custody within the state and local jails every year . Unfortunately,ow we do not. Just ballpark. Not precise butut talking about ballpark. Is it a couple thousand . Since 2019 there were in the local jails 1200 deaths. What about estate . State and federal was about 4200. Why do you combine state and federal and not a state and local . Its not a trick question. Its just a question. Its cu