Testimony, something we have never done before. The five individuals that we issued subpoenas to where danny pomo personal deputy undersecretary for benefits, diana rubin is director of the philadelphia Regional Office, ms. Kimberly grace director of the st. Paul Regional Office, mr. Robert mckendrick director of the Los Angeles Regional Office, mr. Antoine waller director of the baltimore Regional Office. We learned at our last hearing the ig report lays out the alleged abuse of vas relocation permanent change of station programs costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxpayer money and now ms. Rubin sent ms. Gray said apparently in a properly use their positions of authority to put their own personal and financial benefits ahead of veterans, taxpayers and their subordinates. As the saying goes a pictures worth a thousand words a lets start with a map and describe in the simplest terms what tonights hearing is all about. You can look at the screen appear. Initially ms. Graves and mr. Waller discussed as potential transfer to philadelphia. Those discussions are eventually shelved because mr. Mckendree is transferred from philadelphia are a directors job to become the los angeles are a director. Then ms. Reubens transfers from va headquarters in d. C. To fill the philly job and receives 274,000 in relocation assistance. Mr. Waller is subsequently transferred from the st. Paul ro director job to become the baltimore ro director job. Ms. Graves then transfers from her position as the eastern area director in philadelphia to fill the now vacant saint paul ro director job and receives about 129,000 in relocation assistance. Finally both ms. Reubens and ms. Graves retained their fps level salaries despite assuming lower responsibility jobs. It seems to me ms. Reubens and ms. Graves used the relocation Expense Program is an expensive and confusing waste of taxpayer money given that they both volunteered to take these positions. As my colleague mr. Coffman pointed out at the first hearing on this report their relocation expenses were exorbitantly more than even the highest ranking military officials received when they and their families are order to move. Im glad to see the va has hit the pause button on this program in my judgment about to be scrapped altogether across the federal government. The ig report sheds light on vas policy of providing relocation expenses and what i can only describe as gross and haphazard abuse of the program. It also details a scheme by which transferred fts employees received big pay raises and large incentives with very little connection to the relative responsibilities, complexities and challenges associated with the new position. As i have said before the report is damning. I believe its important to go forward with the facts and findings of the report as well as a ford or witnesses who are here tonight, those that are at the center the report have an opportunity to present their accounts of how events transpired. This is important both for her constitutional oversight duty and the departments transparency with the American People. After issuing the subpoena on october 21 i received a request from representatives of some of the witnesses to postpone the hearing, or at least at the very least excuse ms. Reubens emmis graves from appearing today. I want to make it clear that requiring these individuals were any individual to appear before us today is not done to embarrass them as some may have asserted. They are here before us today because they are the subjects of this damning report which was completed at this committees request. They are two of the individuals who allegedly created openings in philadelphia and st. Paul for their own transfers to these locations and then also benefited significantly from vas Relocation Program to move to the openings that they allegedly generated. If this is not what happened than i believe a public hearing is an ideal place for them to tell us what actually did happen this hearing is not a joke. The findings of this report provide a roadmap for further inquiry and reform. My suspicion is that this kind of behavior is rampant not only throughout the department of Veterans Affairs but also the rest of the federal government. Va must take aggressive steps to root it out hold employees accountable and be better stewards of taxpayer dollars. As i have said before if va put half the effort into pushing for true accountability or protecting their employees who come forward as whistleblowers as they have for the individuals investigated in ms ig report and i honestly think the department would be a much better place. Va axis for veterans, not for itself or the unjust enrichment of its senior employees. Thats why we take this ig report so seriously. Thats why we are here tonight to ask the right questions and that is why the public and americas veterans have a right to hear from these witnesses. I recognize the Ranking Member ms. Brown for any comments you may have. Thank you mr. Chair. The hearing this evening is a followup to the hearing nearly two weeks ago of the Inspector Generals report on an appropriate use of positions and misuse of Relocation Programs and incentives. The i. T. Report made a number of serious charges as part of our oversight efforts. The committee is looking into the case of reallocation incidents as well as looking into the culture of the Veterans Benefits administration. Its important we get a better understanding of how the va uses reallocation incentives to fill important positions. Especially when we see a va bird the important leadership positions go unfilled. We must determine whether these programs work and are they working as intended. If they are not that we must Work Together to make sure that they are used as recruitment and retention tool and not simply a means to reward City Employees when the use of bonuses are not available. To buffer our efforts in this area to chairman daines been requesting that gao look into the appraisal or abl program not only at the va but across the government. Im looking forward to their report in the very near future. The allegations in ig report are serious and highlighted culture of cronyism within the benefit administration. I hope our witnesses will be able to help us to get to the bottom of this. We all respect the rights of them to avail themselves to any cause additional rights they may have put at the end of the day we simply must find answers and made the reforms and changes we need to ensure that veterans come first. With that i yield back the balance of my time. Thank you very much miss ms. Brown. Her first and only cannot we have the following individuals are deseeded at the table. Mr. Danny pall mall undersecretary for benefits and ms. Diana reubens director of the philadelphia Regional Office, mr. Robert mckendrick truck after Los Angeles Regional Office kimberly grace director of the st. Paul Regional Office in mr. Antoine waller director of the ultima Regional Office ms. Linda holiday Deputy Inspector general for the das office of Inspector General. As her activities were heavily featured in a porsche did not respond to my request. I would ask the witnesses to please stand and raise your right hand so that we can swear you in for your testimony. Do you solemnly swear under penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth . Thank you. You may be seated and let the record like that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. Before we start i want to read rule 3e of the committees rules they provide each witness who is appear before the committee or subcommittee shall file with the clerk of the committee at least 48 hours in advance of his or her appearance or at such other time as designated by the chairman after consultation with the Ranking Member a written statement of his or her proposed testimony. We have been trying for over a week to get testimony from the department. We were unable to receive that. I was told we would have it by friday. For mr. Pummil to give us and then when i arrived in washington today i was told they would receive it by 2 30. Then i received a two sentence summary and was told this committee would receive nothing else from the department. So im going to read it to you. In summary dany pummils will cover actions in response to the ig report. He will discuss vas accomplishments, the elimination of the program across va and the ongoing review of other relocation incentives to ensure appropriate controls. Mr. Pummil i know you are not the one that made this decision. I am sure whoever that person is probably watching or listening but its not acceptable. I am sick and tired of asking for information from the department and being given a run around. The i was asked if he could provide testimony and i said of course you can provide testimony if you provide a written statement prior to and the reason for that is to allow members of this committee to read that testimony and be able to formulate questions that are important to that testimony and we dont have that so because of that im not going to recognize you for an Opening Statement but i will be asking some questions if you in the next few minutes. Ms. Rubens, the ig report concluded that you use your position of authority for personal and financial benefit. What evidence do you have to dispute that conclusion . Sir ive been advised by counsel not to answer that question to protect my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution. What the wreck or to reflect ms. Rubens has asserted her fifth her rant fifth amendment right against self incrimination. Let me be very clear are you declining to answer that makes questions solely on the grounds that he believed the answer will incriminate you . Sir, its the advice of counsel has been to not enter anything that will ensure protect my rights under the fifth amend that i will continue to assert them. And ms. Rubens was mr. Mckendrick lying when he told you that he would only move from philadelphia to los angeles if it was a direct reassignment . Ive been advised by my counsel not to answer that question to protect my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution. Let the record reflect that ms. Rubens has asserted her fifth amendment right against selfincrimination. Ms. Rubens please let me be very clear, are you declining to answer the questions that this Committee Puts forth solely on the grounds that you believe that the answer will incriminate you . Sir ive been advised by counsel not answer any questions that might incriminate me. The report cites ms. Rubens and email from former undersecretary hake etu which said she was quote all in to help and make it happen matt. As in movie to philadelphia. What was ms. Hickeys rolled in your transfer and mr. Mckendricks transfer . Ive been advised by counsel not to answer that question to protect my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution. What with their record reflect that ms. Rubens has asserted her at the moment right against selfincrimination. Ms. Rubens that may be very clear are you declining to answer the committees questions solely on the ground that you believe the answer will incriminate you . Sir ive been advised that any question that might incriminate me i should in fact those are my fifth amendment rights. Ms. Rubens waited to post the philadelphia job . Where they and the other candidates are there any that were considered for the job . Chairman ivan a vice by counsel not answer that question to protect my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution. Let the record reflect that ms. Rubens has asserted her fifth amendment right against selfincrimination and ms. Rubens again let me be very clear you declining to answer the committees questions solely on the ground that you believe the answer will incriminate you . Sir questions that might incriminate me in fact i have been advised by my counsel to assert my fifth amendment right. Ms. Rubens according to the ig report the hiring efforts for the borrow position in los angeles was suspended at the direction of your office in the midst of the hiring process. Why did you seemingly out of the blue stop the effort to fill this position . Mr. Chairman identifies by counsel not answer that question to protect my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution. Let their record reflect ms. Rubens has asserted her for the run if the member right against self and let me be clear ms. Rubens your declining to answer the committees question fully on the ground that you believe the answer will incriminate you . Ive been advised by counsel not answer questions to ensure protect my rights under the fifth of amendment under the constitution. Ms. Rubens are you refusing to answer any questions put before you this evening . No sir. Ms. Graves, the ig report concluded that you used your position of authority for personal and financial benefit. What evidence do you have that disputes that conclusion . Upon advice of counsel at respectfully exercise my fifth amendment right and decline to answer that question. Let the record reflect that ms. Graves has asserted her fifth amendment right against selfincrimination so ms. Graves let me be there with you, are you declining to answer the committees questions solely on the grounds that you believe the answer will incriminate you . Upon advice of counsel i respectfully exercise my fifth amendment right and decline to answer that question. Ms. Graves with as many management challenges that have existed at the Baltimore Office and your years of experience in vba why didnt you volunteer for the position . Upon advice of counsel i respectfully exercise my fifth amendment right and decline to answer that question. Let the record reflect ms. Graves has asserted her fifth have been that right against selfincrimination. Ms. Graves let me be clear again are you declining to answer the committees questions solely on the ground that you believe the answer will incriminate you . Upon advice of counsel i respectfully exercise my fifth amendment right and decline to answer that question. Ms. Graves at what point did you put your name in for the st. Paul opening, the same opening that the ig concluded that you helped create . Mr. Chairman upon advice of counsel i respectfully exercise my fipa meant right and decline to answer that question. Let the record reflect ms. Graves has asserted her fifth amount right against selfincrimination. Ms. Graves again let us be clear are you declining to answer the committees questions solely on the ground that you believe the answer will incriminate you . Upon advice of counsel i respectfully exercise my fifth amendment right indicted on to answer that question. Ms. Graves whose decision was it not to advertise the open position at the philadelphia Regional Office . Mr. Chairman upon advice of counsel i respectfully exercise bike at the moment right and i decline to answer that question. Let the record reflect again that ms. Graves has asserted her fifth year with a member right against self information. Ms. Graves let me be very clear you declining to answer the committees questions solely on the ground that you believe the answer will incriminate you . Mr. Chairman upon advice of counsel i respectfully exercise my fifth amendment right under the constitution and decline to answer that question. Thank you. Mr. Waller. Excuse me mr. Mckendrick, apologize. Since this report came out prior to this hearing have any Senior Leaders that be a rich i. T. Regarding the statements you made that were included in the report . No Senior Leaders have talked to me about the statements that were made. Its my understanding that is under investigation. At n. A. B. Officials instruct you as to what to say during this hearing . No they did not mr. Chairman. The ig concluded in its report that you were essentially forced or course to move to the Los Angeles Ro from the philadelphia ro. Is this correct . I was not forced or coerced. I was directly assigned. What does directly assigned main . Directory assignment means the agency has determined in the best interest of the agency that i was the right person at the right time to take the assignment. We went through a vetting process mr. Chairman. Had he not taken that assignment what would have occurred . I dont know chairman. Ms. Rubin stated in her interview with the ig that you contacted her on your own and you volunteer to go to los angeles and that she was dumbstruck that you called her. Is ms. Rubens rubens statement inaccurate of your initial contact that resulted in your transfer to los angeles . She was correct in that i did contact her and i did discuss reassignment and i was interested in the west coast based on my participation in the ear beep panels which are hiring panels. I participated in san diego as well as los angeles. Mr. Mckendrick are you familiar with a for perjury in the u. S. Code . I am chairman. You stated that i would have to be reassigned meaning im not jumping up and down saying sydney to l. A. , send me to l. A. You also said its not a volunteer in my mind and im not volunteering. You said that under oath to the Inspector General and yet today it appears you are telling me something different. Do you wish to revise your statement to this committee . In that statement chairman, it was a process of learning about the stations on the west coast, the opportunities. I had several dialogues with several individuals about the challenges of the stations. I did express an interest by making that phonecall and several other phonecalls to inquire. The final discussions were between myself and the chief of staff and the va chief of staff and it was through that process the offers that were made there that the final decision was made mr. Waller, my time is running out but i need to ask you very quickly did you like your job at the st. Paul ro . How about your family . Did they wait to move from st. Paul . Not at the time. We have these discussions they did not. Today like living in st. Paul . Do you feel that you are pressured or manipulated to leave that position in st. Paul . I do believe there was press