In the position to advise people how to use their liberty. That is one thing. And i think people should do whatever the hell they want. They want to go crazy on social media . Do it. You want to go and insult people . Do it. Even if you want to be racist. We cannot stop it. I will give an example that is not american and more international. Do you remember, of course, and this is something i give advice to my people. When people were offended by the Charlie Hebdo character and the danish cartoons before that and we were up in arms and i said you go and make them scared and what do you think will happen . You will close down Charlie Hebdo . Bravo. You have the internet that is never closed. You cannot stop people. You cannot draw the line. I am sure. Like one of the side effects of democracy is you have to listen to ideas and opinions you dont like. It is part of the problem. If you dont like it, you can chose not to see and not to see. But it is people expressing opinions. We live in a day and age that many of the ideas that kept in someones mind and people will not say it in public. All our brains are splattered in social media and people see what is in sight and it is a scary place to be. That is human nature. People are expressing themselves and saying whatever they want. It is absolutely impossible. Is it a good thing . It is a bad thing . I dont know. It is the way it is because there is absolutely no practical way to stifle the freedom of expression on social media no matter how annoying, how horrible, or how excruciating it can get. It is just the way it is. Or else, you can give up technology. I dont think any of you is ready to give up on those Instagram Photo pictures you take every day. Yeah. It is just we have to live with it. On that note, thank you again. Booktv is n twitter and facebook. We want to hear from you. Like us on facebook or send us a tweet. Now on booktv, we are live from the 15th annual Annapolis Book festival. Today you will hear from several authors on a range of topics from income inequality to a profile on pope francis and former cia director Michael Hayden talking about terrorism and intelligence. Now first up in our coverage, here is a discussion on income inequality. Good morning, we are here to talk with doctor Stefanie Eden a Stefanie Deluca and kathryn edin. Dr. Deluca uses research to inform education, housing policy, and she was awarded a william tee Grant FoundationScholar Award to study mobility residential and family life among very poor families in the souths. She is working on a mixed study for the effect of baltimore housing programs on long term neighborhood and School Equality and childrens outcome. He contributes to regular and local and National Media including the atlantic, the new yorker and National Public radio. Dr. Delucas work has been published in several academic journals and she has presented her work at the human of history. He has presented on as a fellow at the Century Foundation and as a member of the policy advisory board. She earned a phd in Human Development in social policy at Northwestern University and bachelors in sociology. Please welcome dr. Deluca. Stefanie deluca is one of the leading studies on housing development. She looks at the life of low in come men, women and children. She has authored six books including the one she is here to discuss 2. 00 a day living on almost nothing in america and some 50 journal articles. She is a bloomberg distinguished professor at john hopkins university. Formally, she was a professor at the Harvard Kennedy school and chair of the multi Disciplinary Program in inequality and social policy. Doctor edin is a Founding Member of the mcarthur network on housing and families with Young Children and a past member of the mcarthur network on the family and economy. They are coauthorers of the 2016 publication coming of age in the other america. Which looks at research on baltimore children in the suburbs tracking their status on Mental Health, physical health and emotional behaviors. Please welcome kathryn edin once more. Lets begin with both of you taking time to discuss the books you are here to talk about. Thank you so much for spending your saturday morning with us. This is a real treat to be here. I am going to take you back in time to 2003, i just finished a phd in chicago and moved to baltimore to take a job at john hopkins as somewhat of an expert on urban poverty except i managed to speak to not one single poor person while doing my phd let alone a poor person of color. You can get a ph. D and do that. Crunching numbers, policy data, neighborhood data. It is perfectly respectable to do that but i am from the south side of chicago and back there you dont really feel like you know anything unless you talked to someone in person. At least that is how i was raised. It was getting to be too much and i had to get away from an p up away from the numbers and get out into the streets of baltimo baltimore and join the program kathryn started. I started looking at housing projects in baltimore city. I fell in love with baltimore and was transformed as a scholar. By going into the neighbored in baltimore i was told to never go to. The first interview i can remember that changed the game for me was with a young man named juvon. I had 32 pages of questions memorized. We dont use paper and pen because it makes you feel like you at a Doctors Office or survey. And it may be hard to believe this but i wasnt very good. With but i was the best person on the team for talking to young men. Says a lot more about the team than anything else. I wade through a couple active drug deals to go back into the kitchen with him to sit down and try to talk to him. We wanted to understand the impact of neighborhoods in family and cools and growing up in poverty and went in with all these questions. In the first few minutes, you know, he is very polite. He is saying yes, maam and no, maam but it is not gelling. It is not working. I had no choice but to go off script and i said what kind of music do you like and he said i like heavy metal music and i said i liked heavy metal growing up. White kids in the south looked to heavy metal instead of doing bad things. It just made it seem like it. He said i like greek mythology and he said physic and i am all like isaac newton and he is like physic isnt nothing but math with a little science and then we got to the questions about poverty and schools being in disarray and the challenge of growing up in a highrise in downtown that was torn down eventually. At the end of the interview he said, you know, you are pretty cool for a white girl. And if we had gone to high school we might have been friend. And i thought wow, that went well. We had fun. I would never it would take seven years to understand these Passion Projects that juvon was talking about would be so important. It would take years to figure that out. I just thought the interview went well and i was on the way to being sociologys next martha stuart. It was becoming clear that instead of inner city poverty reducing in the wake of the Voting Rights act and fair housing right inner city poverty increased and became more concentrated. The work on the truly disadvanta disadvantaged made it clear. Racial segregation, what we thought it had gone away, had gotten worse and become enormous to the rise of family and children. No longer was this more of a failure than in highrise p projects in our inner cities. In the early 1990s the federal government did things to the accounts of journalist of children being hurt. The federal government decided to tear down the largest highrises in our american cities. Those deems toxic to the family and children trapped inside. The second thing is an ex experiment that would give families a chance to leave highrises and move to lower r poverty neighborhoods. This is where our Research Program was born. Trying to understand how the children who came from the communities would change if they had a chance to move. I will say it isnt just a family a child is born into but the neighborhood he or she grows up in that shapes her fate. We have over 30 years of evidence pointing to this clear compelling fact and we know enough to act on this. Neighborhood poverty is a liability and diminishes the chances of our most Vulnerable Children especially children of color. What we saw in baltimore is enormous gains in Educational Attainment and other behaviors as a result of children having left the weprojects through the programs we study. The 150 young men and women we followed whose parents signed up for who left the projects these children grew up in households whereome a third had a primary caregiver with a High School Diploma or ged. Over 70 of these young people would go on to finish high school in this next generation. 13 grew up with a caregiver who tried trade school or college and 80 of the them went on because of housing policy that allowed their kids to live part of their childhoods in neighborhoods that were safer, more role models for what was possible in life. Parents also enjoyed Mental Health benefits on par with best practices and anti depression medication therapies from moving out of a dangerous neighborhood. Housing and health policy. They were the kinds of parents they felt like they had always wanted to be but couldnt be. This is one big lesson we learned. Intergenerational disadvantage is not inevitable and we can change it with social policy if we invest. We know this now. The second thing goes back to the passion project that i first observed in that kitchen in east baltimore. The single biggest predictor of young people being on track by the end of our study, in school, working or both, which was most kids as i said, but what explained between 80 on track and the 20 who didnt get there was something called the identity project. Finding a passion. Something to be about. A creative outlet. A hobby. A job. Activities you did with your friends around making music or japanese animation, greek mythology, raising stray puppies in a kitchen cabinet. It came in a million different colors. We saw this incredible resilience coming in a number of forms. Some were kids who used it to escape rather than if engage. We sat down with vicky and in 15 minutes she couldnt take it anymore. Do you want to see my birds . She had been raising pigeons and that is when she went when she meaded to get away from the 13 or more people kirk circulating the house which helped when vicky was prone to bouts of anger. We saw a more supportive institution for young men like jobs or the police explorer. We met a number of men and they were saying as you can see i am a working man because they had a badge from john hopkins or a scrub from a certified nursing job like gary had. It was a point of pride, a point of social inclusion, and a point that distinguished them from being the likely suspect when they were stopped by the police. In addition to as martin said a reason to think bigger about what comes next. It is not just about cleaning it dining room at burger king. It is about something bigger than that. These identity projects sparked sh grit we have heard so much about the last five or ten years. The grit that distinguishes the kids. That grit doesnt come out of nowhere. It needs to be sparked. We saw this with tony who took an internship and ended up at the university of maryland at the Pharmacy School delivering specimens and mail to doctors. He had being around those kinds of people is what sparked my interest to become a pharmacist. He would finish a couple courses, take the lis of the fridge and tape it become up and keep going. That is grit. We saw this in the experiences that kids said i am about something. I am not about the street. I am not about these friends but these mentors and family members. Young people ages 1524 who are in favor of younger child policy, 05 preschool and reading programs, these young adults are enormous adults with enormous potential especially in cities like baltimore. What we have seen is an entrenchment that provides the raw material. This support has been proved away in favor of accountability in schools but also the sense that these young adults are threats not assets. Because we have never experienced such levels of racialal and economic segregation in history we are virtual stranges. We hold a bridge between the other america where these kids are working so hard to get ahead and struggle and the america in the wealthy super zips who are isolated. This isolation allows us to be vulnerable to the poor images like in april of the few kids throwing bricks after the death of freddie gray. If anything we found these kids are the exception not the norm. Fewer than 15 in our city every turned to the streets but you would never know that watching the news. We think this kind of isolation demenish support for Public Policy like those that would be invested in Youth Centers and sports and Music Education and so on. Two big take away. Housing policy is game changer and Youth Investment is a game changer even in unlikely laces. It is hard to leave that story and move on to the story of 2. 00 a day. We think poverty is about laziness or lack of mainstream norms or values. The profound thing about what this experiment did that our kids and parents participated in was simply moved the same family to a different place. It wasnt even the best place. They were not moving to sell air park but their lives were powerfully transformed. You know . So it speaks to the power of place as stefanie said and the power of investing in young people. It is really a very hopeful story. It is hard to change peoples character but it is not so hard to change the places in which we allow children to grow up. So, 2 a day has its origins in baltimore also. The book came about by accident. All books have their origin story, all studies have their origin story. I was accally actually in baltimore teaching in harvard at the time to meet these kids and interview and hang out with them. My family moved to baltimore for the summer and you know, we were in the homes of these young people and their parents and one day, my assignment was to knock on the door of this young women who we had been following her family over the years and had not seen her in a long time. We knew she had a new baby. He went to the homes on madison avenue, kind of tucked in the shadow of the prison there, and we knocked on the door and ashley came to the door and, you know, if you do this for a while you can tell when something is wrong. Ashley is not making eye contact. She is unkempt and passing her child from shoulder to shoulder. The baby is crying and she is trying to comfort the child but neglecting to do the critical thing all parents know to do is that is put the hand here as you move the child. This wasnt happening. We followed ashley up the stairs and you get into the apartment and there is virtually nothing there. There is a trashed couch, a single mattress on the floor with a torn, fitted bugs bunny sheet, there is a table but with only three legs so it is useless and shoved up against the wall and a single chair. So ashley sits on the chair and i sit on the floor and just by coincidence my seat gives me the perfect view of the kitchen cupboards. In this particular apartment, there are no longer any doors on the cabinets and i can see they are empty. So i began talking with ashley about, you know, the transition to adulthood, the themes that stefanie outlined but i soon, you know, something else, some other set of questions was popping up in my mind, i am thinking wait a minute, there is no food here. I dont see any baby formula. So back at the very beginning of my career in the early 1990s my graduate advisor convinced me to spend my 20s running around the country interviewing poor single mothers about their budget and half of these mothers were on the old Welfare Program called afdc. I did that for years various parts of the country and i wrote a book about how you could not survive on welfare in any of those places i had been but you could not survive on low wage work either. If you spend six years doing something it is hard to stop doing it. You know, i began to realize there was no source of cash income coming into the house. It is called tanf temporary assistan assistance. So, you never know when you have going to have food. This was a moment of epiphany. I thought could it be in the worlds most advanced capitalist society that this is how people are living. Without cash. Could it be that a new poverty has risen, a poverty so deep, they could not think to look for it. I did say to ashley, you know, at the end of the interview we paid her. We gave her 50 and i was really worried about her and the baby and i said can i come back tomorrow i have a few more questions and i was going to bring her and the baby things and she said sure. So you can imagine my shock when the next day, the Research Team arrives and you know there is a knock on the door and there is ashley. She is obviously gone and gotten a home perm. And quite literally either she depos deposited the baby with her mother and she has a spring in her step as she announces she forgot we were coming but she is off to look for a job. So i too have a pretty skeptical nature and i am thinking 50 . Could it be such little cash is really the difference between ashley day one and ashley day two . Could it be in the worlds most advanced capitalist nation there is something vital about cash for social mobility . For hope . So i wont tell you the rest of the story of 2. 00 a day but it weaves together the numbers from our best fashional surveys with stories we then gather following families for many months and years across chicago, cleveland, appellation mountains and the mississippi delta. We find the dramatic lives and the number of fami