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If youre watching it on cspan, you cant leave a live question but you can go to our archives, and you can watch 11 years of what we have done and perhaps signed First Editions available. We are very proud to welcome peter cozzins. It is not the first time he had been with us. He walked into a shop with a 15yearold interested in the civil war. This was three years ago. The retired Foreign Service officer, in 2002, awarded the american Foreign Service associations highest award for exemplary moral code, integrity and creative dissent. He is the author or editor of 16 books on the american civil war, the indian war, american west, among them, stolen river, chickamauga, chattanooga, john pope, he added to the original battles and leaders from 1887 or 1888, volume 6, also written the eyewitnesses to the indian war of 18651890 published in five volumes and shenandoah 1862, stonewall jacksons valley campaign. The latest book is the earth the earth is weeping the epic story of the indian wars for the american west. It is 544 pages, and 35. This is a true historical page turner. And you still keep a large number of places and actions understandable across a vast geographical area and a vast time. Talking just before, and First Editions are not scarce, second edition are scarce. Even before publication. How to come about to give a natural extension of the indian wars and how did you derive the title as well. My interest in the indian wars is a drive from work on the biography of john pope. I was surprised john pope was dismissed by history after suspending weapons by robert e lee, and quite an Important Role in indian wars. More important extraordinary humanitarian views and the plight of the indians, very empathetic to them, i discovered it was a prevailing point of view, and it was remarkable for the indians. That led me the title is not a quote of my own imagination. You will find various combinations of lyrics, in a period, mother earth, sad, weeping, their deteriorating situation in the west. We begin the study, the eyewitness to the indian wars, and expanded battles and leaders as well but the indian wars, this begins a balanced view, one of the first to give such a balance view, what sources were most valuable in researching this book. Principally on the indian side, what sources are more apparent in army diaries, and there were a number of ethnographers, professional and otherwise who took testimony from Indian Lawyers at the end of the indian wars when they were young enough to recall what occurred, those provided a Rich Resource and congressional documents seems like anytime anyone sneezed in the west in the postcivil war, Congress Call the hearing and quite often they invited indian chiefs to testify before congress to present their point of view. Another Rich Resource and memoirs of a number of indians that were taken down while they were still alive, published in recent years. I was able to find enough credible vivid sources in participants at all levels who tell a story 50 50. Host you have wonderful maps in this book that really help the reader, help me as i went through the book. An overview of the indian population of tribes in the west, where do they come from guest i will speak of the period 186566, i provide that. Cant see with any degree of certain the what the population was. Approximately 250,000 of whom, 75,000 resided on the planes in the northwest. The principal tribe, in the book going from north to south on the planes, the lakota nation, the 7 tribes, northern cheyenne, arapahoe, the apache in the southwest, nez perce of idaho in california. And among tribes that were friendly to the government, shoshone of the rocky mountains. And central plains. And there was a lot of 150 or 200 years has action begins, there was a lot of jockeying, the lakota, cheyenne and arapahoe Like Woodland tribes that pushed west by expanding white settlement. And clash with tribes that were native to the planes and push them away, to be associated with them. And pushed to the mountains, the black hills have been a source of contention, going south with the comanche in the southern plains, other tribes, and further north decimated smallpox and other white mans diseases. Displacing another set. One of my rentable feces and the course of the research, but we associate with the great planes, with newcomers themselves than they had been on planes, it was one wave of immigration. s host i want to get to the thesis of your book. The assessment, the basic theme running through. Basic misconceptions. Of the army and the enemy. The art extermination allegedly and indians themselves who you are mentioning quite a bit, did not stand up united against white settlements coming in. I put this forward early on in the book. There is no period, steeped in myth in the area in the american west. In wounded knee, for the first 80 years after the indian wars, the perception was the army is a shining white knight of white settlers and indians as bad hard cardboard cutouts to the army and governing and in 1970 the pendulum shifted the opposite direction, very my heart in wounded knee, from the perspective of the victims in films like Little Big Man and the pendulum swings, informed our understanding. What i tried to do is tell the story again in a balanced fashion. Host our man, Abraham Lincoln, presided over the beginning of the wars in the west, minnesota, the sioux uprising. From the late 1880s 1090s that had in this the hanging of those 26 indians altogether, 300 plus that were going to be hangs, lincoln did pardon the others. Is this really the spark for the wars that followed . The most egregious myth, the army was hellbent on killing indians, that is not the case, and policy may have been extermination. And fighting tribal warfare. And the question on the minnesota not really. It made westerners a lot less tolerant by indians in the midst. A lot of the slightest perhaps portending general uprising, the poisons atmosphere in the months, sand creek occurred, that reaction is so dramatic in part, bred by the minnesota uprising. The internal conflicts over and over again that i saw on both sides, surprised me a bit, within both the army and the indians had those decisions. The indians, between those that were ready to have peaceful settlements and those who wanted to resist aggressively. Explain these. There was no tribe that thought the government, fought the army that was ever fully united, not a single tribe. It boiled down to a question, whether a particular faction, believed that resisting the whites was in fact a policy with any chance of success, whether it was futile and they were better off trying to accommodate so quite often would be the case, the government had a policy of bringing chiefs to washington dc but the power of the whites in chief come back from washington traveling across the country and there were small tribes, 300 4000 people, no chance in the long run and these heads of the piece factions seek accommodation as the only possible way of surviving. The only time there was unanimity was among the tribes that united that like the shoshone and poni. Host interesting that i collect the black hawk war, lincoln was in that bar, only three month and that was it. They brought it at the end of it, brought black hawk east, same way and he went back and stayed peaceful after that. Interesting they brought him up the eastern coast to be seen in baltimore, philadelphia, washington, andy jackson was going up at the same time on a tour, political tour and black hawk bringing more people to him, people come out in droves to see the indian chiefs. At first. My book begins with a conference between Abraham Lincoln and the delegation of cheyenne chiefs. After their tour of washington dc which included union fortifications and so forth, pt barnum arranged a deal to take them to new york city and they were paraded around new york city and pt barnum hat i forget how any shows but it went on for a couple weeks and soldout audiences and they were great novelties but after a while these were so frequent like revolving door delegations, the novelty wore off on the part of americans in the east. Host my technical staff asked me to read this. If you are having issues with todays show please close and reopen your browser. Return to officevoice. Net and select lowspeed stream. Please do that, we want to keep you with us. There are also intertribal contacts, from having unity. Some tried that, the sioux and the cheyenne were together a number of times but was this one of the major aspects of the defeat of the indians that they cannot unify against a Common Threat . The doubt expedited their defeat. The problem arose from the nature of Indian Society and the west. It was a warrior culture. A young man did not even court a girl or look for a wife between accumulated warmongers. Those that were obtained at the expense of white settlers were not considered to be nearly as worthwhile as those taken from combat or other indians so intertribal wars bred into the culture, this intertribal conflict continues through the indian wars. So the sioux or lakota were facing threats from white minors, settlers. On the one hand, at the same time trying to push the grow further west out of their country. The tribe was never able to focus their attention entirely to the white threat. Host was it the same in the northwest, the paranoid threat . Guest things were pretty settled. They were in their homeland for quite some time and there was some of that but far less pronounced than on the great plains. Host lets talk about warriors versus soldiers which you do quite a bit. The indians were brave, hard but organized, trained to be better warriors, soldiers were quick to organize with more resources to draw from but they were still trained, less qualifying, what happened . Why did the army devolve from the civil war and those in the west were not up to the same standards we all have read about in the civil war . Same with the indians. What sort of warriors where they and how did they organize their campaigns . Guest the volunteer army that fought the civil war, congress was intent on paying down war just as rapidly as possible and they kept sniffing away at the army from 57,000 to fewer than 30,000 by the time of little bighorn. As they did so they decreased incentives, the pay of a private soldier during the indian wars was less than that of a private soldier during the civil war. With the exception of the period of the financial panic of 1873, no incentives to enlist in the army and literally most endeded up deserting as quickly as possible. Some were as high as 85 . Men came west. At the expense of the government and deserted at the first opportunity to work in gold mines or start up on their own, more concerned about losing equipment and manpower. You had low quality and the officer corps, opportunities were so slow. Motion to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel and a lieutenant coming out west started the indian wars, i forget the exact amount of time that expect to wait upwards of 25 years before making major. Someone in the army, navy journal, in a few years, a few years, too old and crippled to fight, just a bunch of hobbled old. Incentives were low for officers and enlisted men, trading was nonexistent, there were no centralized training facilities, you went to socalled training depot but not only no time but no budget even for target practice. The warriors were raised from childhood to become warriors so that was their culture, their way of life. One army colonel called them the best natural cavalry in the world. Host we have two artifacts. Here is what. The journal of army life. Although this is prior to your book, army life must have been awful. Talking about the desertion rates. So did it remain that throughout the war . Guest conditions were better before the civil war because during the civil war the army posts were allowed to fall into disrepair and general sherman went on tour at the start of the wars and wrote a scathing report on the condition of both, made one comment, if the press were to see, if black overseers and plantation owners had kept their slaves in conditions is filthy and miserable in which our soldiers lived, one regiment when it came west shoveled inches of that guano out of their barracks before they could settle in. In many cases, the barracks were so rickety they would fall over in a windstorm, lack of budget. Host dances with wolves was just on. Kevin costner reminded me of this. Any of these people deserted or others go native . Certainly george cook to some extent did. I know of no case of an army officer deserting. Host soldiers themselves . Guest documented there are a handful of cases. One in particular during one of the conflicts in the southern plains, the indians were believed to have thought corrected by bugle calls in the bugler believed to have been a deserter by a black unit. So there thinking was, and grant, what scant evidence there is is very damning. And it is impossible to come to conclusion that this was his decision thinking, and it was a question of choosing between the, even though he wasnt running again between the electors so to speak and the needs of the nation. During a continued economic depression. And the rights of the indians. And the thinking was if a provoked war with those residing off of the reservation was on land promised to them, speaking of the bands that followed sitting bull and crazy horse, we could defeat them then that defeat would pressure reservation chiefs to sell to the government. If we could tame them and mine them. The peace policy that grant claimed after this, before that. For many years, continued. But it changed. And he changed. And decided not to have the same peace policy but to become more aggressive. What changed him . Fundamentally, he did not, the peace policy continued the official policy with i think the best of intentions by president grant. Really up until the whole question of the black bills arose. The gradual decline so much as ending abruptly in the secret cabal in the white house means of provoking a war. To actually provoke the war. Yes. How did the press get into this . And i have here, this is really from the black hawk war again. But again this was, this pamphlet really did provoke the populace against the indians. And what was the role of the press and those days, they were following the army as they went along. It was ubiquitous. Effective began another excellent source they used. Of course for writing my book. I probably site upwards of 50 newspapers. Correspondence traveled with the army or if a conflict developed they would go to the scene of the conflict. And accounts often they interviewed the participants as well. In fact, one of the best accounts i have of what was called hancocks work, one of the first topics was a series of dispatches to the missouri republic by a henry morton stanley. He was a young stringer with the missouri republicans and in new york paper. And the press was ubiquitous in general terms, the Eastern Press was sympathetic to the indians and into the indian rights. The western press was in many cases extermination nest. They were right there. They were right there. You talk about humanitarians that were in the east. Did they have that influence . That huge influence. In fact they were quakers in particular, were influential in the grants developing a peace policy. He turned over athe ironic thing about all of this is the eastern humanitarians and their desire to save the indians, they saw nothing worthwhile in Indian Culture worth saving. So they were agents of culture genesis is much as the government was. They had the belief that the indians had to be christianized, civilized, concentrated in reservations. For the indians to have a chance of surviving. Which was, again, in light of the times it was not necessarily immoral or unrealistic way of looking at things. But again the humanitarians had a very paternalistic view of the indians. They wanted to save them but not the culture. So they had this but they werent influential enough to do much more. They werent influential enough to stop the conference that arose and often times they were sympathetic when conflicts arose. Sympathetic with the army. And it is hard to generalize but the influence of the humanitarians really came front and center after most of the fighting was over. In terms of the fighting winding down and how do we speed their acculturation. That is where they really stepped in full course. And another internal conflict between the bureau of Indian Affairs and that happens throughout this book. Bickering over indian policy. And the abeing part of this. Did they influence Public Opinion as well . What was that conflict of the bickering between them . Absolutely. It was again the army saw the Indian Bureau as hopelessly corrupt. And they cheap, this is a standing joke of the day, and indian chief said to general you know, our indian agent is a great man. When he comes he brings all of his belongings in a little handful of beliefs. When he leaves he takes two steamboats to take them away. There was so much corruption, so much diverting of good and money intended for the indians. In the army was where aware of this. They were against it. The Indian Bureau, their counter arguments, which lacked a certain amount of moral basis, but they argued that the army was, d civilized. If thats a word. Influence on the indians. And the army would want, they were interested in constant conflict. So they were not the appropriate home for the bureau of indians. When in fact, aas general john pope once said we had no interest in indian wars. You know that means hardship a