The new book the operators the wild and terrifying inside story of americas war in afghanistan. Cspan michael, why did you call the book the operators the wild and terrifying inside story of americas war in afghanistan . Other than the operators the wild and terrifying inside story of americas war in afghanistan is what special forces call themselves. They call themselves special forces operators. It refers to special operators. I thought everyone involved in the conflict from diplomatics to journalists to Public Relations people, to aid workers had a bit of an operator in there to people in the white house to people in the embassy in afghanistan. Cspan you total all the time you spent in iraq and afghanistan and the number of trip you made, what are the numbers . Guest a lot of time in disr a lot more time in iraq an afghanistan. For the book i did four trips to afghanistan. A good chunk of i think i spent four of my last five christmases or four of the last six christmases in either baghdad or kabul or around that time. Its been since 2005 ive been its been my life. Cspan youre old . Guest im now 31. Its been a long decade. Cspan your college was . Niu. Yu cspan studied what . Guest english to certify me to join the work force. My last semester at nyu work forking free to carry news international. Glarn you say in your book that there are 27,000 working pr people in the Pentagon Spending 4. 7 billion a year. 27,000 . Where do you get that number . Guest its a number that includes its a broader number not just sort of the propaganda folks. But advertising but everyone shaping the message from the pentagon. It goes from Software Programs and social media, theres been a recent example where the army is using a program that monitors how many times Bradley Manning is mentioned. The we can i can leeks wick key leeks that all branches of the military have. I mean, there are more i have thought about this. There are more Public Relations people on a general staff in kabul than reporters in kabul in afghanistan. Cspan do you ever ask why . Guest they need the help they can get. Even with the message machine, they havent been able to put too positive of a spin on it. Cspan you say i hate this war. Did you hate the iraq war . Guest yes, yeah. Cspan did you hate Afghanistan War . I learn to hate war in general. I mean, not it would be very difficult for me having been through a number of things with both these wars to be happy about any cop flict. Someone invading your country or house. Thats one thing. But the adventurism, i have a dark and dimmed view of it. Its made me in my experience all war does is destroy what we love, you know, destroys people, families, homes, destroys your memory. And its very dark. The flip side of it theres this grand excitement to be involved in it. Thats the operators. The operators in the sick and twisted way love war. I was talking to state Department Official recently and he was recalling his time in baghdad, and in 2006 the height of the sectarian violence he said it was magical. Theres all sorts of conflicting feelings one has. When youre in these things. The stakes are as high as you are going to be. Life and death. You feel like you are center of the feeling. Hence the cover of the book the picture of a general with a pistol and a scotch glass in the other. Its intoxication. Cspan do you have a problem with the first publishers on this . [laughter] guest they had a problem with me is probably the more ak accurate way to put it. I said im going write a book that is going to push the enhave envelope. They said that sounds great and i delivered the book then they lost their nerve. Fortunately im now with Blue Rider Press with an amazing editor who got the book, understood the book, and made it much better in my opinion. Cspan thats penguin. Yeah. Cspan which is a big publishers. Guest yeah. They loved it. They were excited about it. And the publishers that penguin how should i put this without getting in some sort of legal trouble . Essentially for this book, you needed a publisher going 110 behind you. I write about the most powerful people in the country. And i write about them unflattering light sometimes. If you are going to do that you need to have the support of. I didnt have that at the previous publishers. Cspan who was the first . Guest little brown. It was disappointing to see, you know, the sort of i dont know what they call it. Gutlessness from them. But it worked out. I mean, it worked out better for me in the end. Like i said david rosin that is the guy you want editing the book. Diswhran what makes him so special . He worked with everybody. Some of my idols, he worked with great people. His fingers prints on the major american nonfiction works in the past thirty years. He surprises me and sitting in the office and tell me i edited this guy and that guy and it happens to my favorite. Cspan what if your opinion is the partest you went about anybody or anything that makes people nervous . Guest my guess would be the most uncomfortable aspect of the book for some people would be my depiction of general David Petraeus who has been wided regarded as a hero of the iraq war and afghanistan. And i offer very different picture from what one is accustom to when you read about him. Cspan like what . What do you say about him. Guest i quote some of his colleagues talking about him and the knock on general petraeus from his colleagues theres a lot of envy and truth in it. Whenever general petraeus shows up and takes over an assignment he makes everyone before them look like an idiot. I use stronger language in the book using quotes from military generals. And his tactic which is pee leaves the dead dog on your doorstep every time. Thats a powerful indictment of general petraeus record from iraq when he was responsible for equipping and arming the iraq i can police and army a total disaster. This is the iraqi police ended up being the death squads. To this strategy in afghanistan which was in my mind a complete disaster. Cspan but, you know, you can see that person watching right now saying the young punk. Hes 31 years old. You never sirched in the military. What do you know about warfare or anything that has to do with the military . Guest, i mean, i can say that i record what ive seen and heard. Newsweek spond correspondent for two years. My younger brother was a bronze star winning platoon leader. Some ofsome of my best friends are in the military. I have personally suffered losed in the conflicts. You know, its interesting my experience is forged on the street of iraq during the war sectarian fighting. Seeing three four, twostar general act like cons. Totally ignoring the reality in front them. I sat in briefings every day while the guy with two stars on the shoulder would tell us how great everything in iraq was while there were three car bombings waking me up every morning. I went down and interviewed the war lord in southern afghanistan, a guy human rights abuser and drug small smugglers who general petraeus endorsed. Im unhappy people want to try to disparage me because i should be older or this or that, i i would say, you know, judge my work. If you dont like my work, you know, still buy a copy of the book. Cspan let me read you a the wall street journal and this particular the review section under the i think control of the editorial page. Which is conservative. And the author of this review is a guy named mark moyer. Who written a book question of command. I want to lay down the first paragraph and get you to put it in context. He says writing about your book. During the vietnam war the generation of david and neil transformed americas main stream media to a hot bed of antiwar and antimilitary. By a time a major war effort returned in 2003, that would be iraq, that generation had grown too old to visit the trenches allowing the emergence of generation x like reporters like dexter and george who are older than you are. One writes for the nighttimes and one for the new yorker who did not share the contempt for the military. Most americans welcome the change not so for Michael Hastings as we learn in the the operators the wild and terrifying inside story of americas war in afghanistan is a account in events from 2008 to 2011. He asserts the generational change drove him to write the runway general the Rolling Stone article of june 2010 that diewmed doomed the career of general stanley. Is that true . Guest first bit of context there the the wall street journal failed to disclose that the reviewer is a consult assistant for the u. S. Military who worked for general petraeus and cold well. They have chosen a military contractor who works with people who take a lot of money from them to review the book and didnt disclose it. When we are talking about journalistic ethics i would exhibit a whatnot to do. Cspan how do you know that . Its on the web page. Theres a counterinsurgency company. I forget the exact name it. And i wrote a letter to the paul at the editorial page there, he did not see fit to run my letter pointing out the oversight. I think that to me was an eyeopening review for a lot of reasons. Because i think hes right. I think terrorist a theres a major difference. And i think it is generational. I think this is what it is. Sheehan and a number of other journalists in the 20s in vietnam, they saw this stuff firsthand. They sought disaster unfold firsthand. They got firsthand. They saw the horrors of the war firsthand. When they came back, they were able to sort of decipherer the bs and get through the spin machine they called it the great lying machine. And it was during the formative years when they were beginning to report. Packer on the other hand, essentially made their pacer made his career off cheer leading for iraq war. And dexter, dexter is great reporting. Im not im not but i think its very easy to get sucked in to this military reporting culture where you give up a lot of your punch in order keep riding along with the boys in vietnam. Cspan in your book you talk about a lot of people including Dave Silverman, duncan, theres some others ill mention. Let me start downtown character. When can you start wanting to did the general mcchrist crystal article. What was the first time somebody suggested it to you . Guest honestly the first time i had the idea in 2005 in baghdad. I said, wouldnt it be interesting to do something with general casey. Hang out in the command and get general george casey. I thought wouldnt it be interesting to get inside the command and do an embedded in the same way accustomed to doing it with the troops with the grunts the solder on the solider on the ground. Theres a firsthand reporting what they are saying on the ground. Capturing their ideosink sei. How they speak their fear, their love, their desire. All this experience war for the low level grunteds. And that seeds grew over the years, and i thought about trying do do a profile on general David Petraeus. I would end up doing it anyway. I saw general mccrystal was getting very interesting coverage and i just sensed there was a bigger story there. Reading between the lines of some other profile. Thats what i wanted to do. Generation one of my model by a Rolling Stone writer that was one my model to try to do a generation kill did to the marine and the humvee to capture that with the highest command. Who wrote that . Evan right. Cspan go back to the beginning. Who did you call first . Guest the first person i called i sent an email to duncan who is one of the character in the book who is the civilian Public Relations adviser as well as two other Public Affairs people. Cspan who were there . Guest cornel cspan what did you ask . Guest i would love to do a profile of general mccrystal coming up on the year youve been in command. Any access you can give me would be great. To assess the situation in afghanistan. Cspan did they know your background at newsweek . Guest im not im not sure exactly how familiar they were with my work. I know, i did not expect to get any access, actually. I really didnt. I just sort of whenever you do anything you make the call and ask. Cspan youre coming out of Rolling Stone magazine, define that . Guest Rolling Stone is fort years of kicking [laughter] trying not swear. Its forty years of rock and roll style journalist. Kick down the doors, toss the hand grenade, expose the powerful. Owned by one of the great legend in publishing and somebody that supported me 110 . Cspan what year was this . Guest when he founded it . Cspan no. When you approached him. Guest 2010. Cspan youre in the 20s then. Guest yeah. April this happened in april 2010 i think february around february or marming i went to the Rolling Stone officers and pitched them the story and then i went back to bag baghdad and got an email and said write a more detailed pitch of the story. I did so, and then asked got in touch with mccrystals people and went over to meet them in paris. Cspan were in the early part of 2012, this was in 2010, right. How long from the time you got this idea to the time that general mccrystal was dismissed from the army . Guest i met up with probably three months about threemonth period. Cspan why did they let you in . Guest i think the strategy it gets to Public Relations strategy that general petraeus had pioneered. Its something i like to call, i call it petraeus envy. All the generals are trying to do what he did so well which is to build up a fan based media which soarpts as a separate power structure to by pass traditional chain of command which gives him a lot of influence. Hes been profiled by everybody. Hes been on the cover of everything. And other generals look at that and say wow he plays the media game well. Look at the advantages. He can do what he wants and push the agenda or policy he wants to push. I believe there was an attempt to create the sort of same hero status for general mccrystal to allow him to get away with more and create a separate power base within the media. Cspan why . Guest because then you can if he has drk, i mean, the concrete example happened during the Strategic Review which mccrystal and petraeus used the media and strategic leaks to the media to get the number of troops they wanted. Cspan when in the midst did the 60 minutes profile come out . Guest in the middle of the beginning of the controversy over the Strategic Review. There was a Concerted Campaign waged by friendly journalists, friendly think tankers who worked for mccrystal recently and they were sort of pushing this idea at the same time. It was a concerted deliberate and cautious campaign. Cspan thirtysecond where he come from. Guest right. He started at west point his father was a general. Kind of a wild man reputation. Went in to the rangers and special forces community as he went through his career, then over the last decade, the war on terror decade mccrystal played one of the if not the most pivotal role in the worldwide counterterrorism agency. Cspan when did he get the four stars . Guest after the got the job in afghanistan in june 2009. Cspan before he went there where was he . Guest working for admiral mullen at the pentagon. Cspan hes connected a the top . Guest super connected. He was connected with rumsfeld and cheney and one offed a must recalls mullens proto. Cspan you say in the book hes a democrat. Guest hes a democrat. He voted for obama. A liberal on social issues as well. They famously didnt have fox news in the headquarter. Usually when you go to the military headquarter they have tv screens and have fox news on. He didnt. Cspan you say who is the fellow Dave Silverman . Guest a character. A navy seal who became one of generals most trusted right hand men, and very dynamic guy. Very interesting guy. Very entertaining guy, very accomplished individual. In fact now and dave had a great time hanging out with him on this trip, and now day silverman is the ceo of the Mccrystal Group which is his Consulting Firm he set up. Cspan you say in your book ive seen other places hes on the boards. Guest jetblue. Hes offering training seminars for a lot of money. Cspan he got along pretty well. Guest 60 ,000 a speaking engagement and he has a book. Cspan go back to the moment who said yes you could come inside . Guest i got the email from duncan and duncan said why dont you come over to paris where general mccrystal is going drum up support for the nato allies. He emails me then i email my editor and said hey, you know, and he called and i said yeah can i go paris. My editor said get on the plane. By april 15, i had arrived in paris. Cspan 2010. Guest april 15, 2010. Ai lived in paris, and walked to the hotel lobby, met general mccrystal for the first time and he looked at me and said, youre the Rolling Stone guy. I dont care about the article. I want to be on the cover. I said, well, i think its between you and lady gaga. I was trying to make a joke not knowing she was going to be on the cover. He said put me and her in a heart shape tubbed. I said its going a different kind of story. Cspan what happened next . Guest we went to the [inaudible] had kind of annan event and then the key moment came the next morning on the first briefings in the hotel room. It was the briefing where he at end started making fun of the Vice President biden who is that in and one of the other top close confidence who became the most widely quoted piece in the story biden, did you say bite me . And everybody laughed. And this was in a briefing i was attending in front of ten to fifteen staffers. And i was again, i was like wow, its an interesting bunch of guys. And how theyre talking about the civilian leadership. Cspan did they ever say to you, i think this review implies do d they ever say to you this is off the record you cannot write about this . Guest two times general mccrystal asked me to keep stuff off. Cspan did you . Guest yes. And i honored the agreement. I said it in the book. The general attitude where they say its free wheeling style were not going tell you what to do write, kind of go for it. And so its been interesting to see the response that general mccrystal and the allies had. Ive been absolutely consistent from the minute the story broke to now explaining what happened. Where they have changed their story a nu