Author of radio shangrila but we go way back to the 80s when we worked together as a tv station in north carolina. So were reconnecting now, with be asking the questions of her which might make her slightly nervous, except i know that she knows the answers to every single question im going to ask her today. Because she researched this book for five years. Welcome, lisa. Thank you so much. Thank you being here with. Host we are happy to have you. Her first book, was holiday raid raid show shangry shangrila. They have Gross National happiness. So were happy to talk about you new book, which is ray and joan, and we many ray croc and this third and final wife, joan croc, his woad dough, and the story is so compelling in some many ways but we need to go back to the beginning a little bit here, because mas mcdonalds is huge, its everywhere, but has really modest beginning in a little town in california with a couple of brothers. So when you started research it took you to where. Guest took me to San Bernardino, which is a smallish town, it was two brothers to came from New Hampshire tonger get out of the weather in the 20s, and wants to make theyre way in the movie industry. Back then the early days, the talkees, dick and Mac Mcdonalds made their way house and the found out its hard to make it in the movie industry so the wound starting an orange juice and hot dog stand. And that orange juice and hot dog stand led them to open a rib restaurant, and then they decided that it they were having a hard time, if anybody remembers the era of car hops. Car hops were unreliable, didnt show up for work. Why serve your to your car a time in america people were following in love with their cars, roads were being built, suburbs, and the brothers had a hard time employing dishwasher and car hops which attracted boys which meant shenanigans in the parking lot, glasses broken. So it was a pricey proposition and the ribs were hard to make they shut done and decideed to pare down their menu to ten items, hamburgers, milk shakes and french fries. They had a terrific formula for making french friesed. At first people in San Bernardino, where they moved their restaurant, were very upset nice liked the car hop service. But didnt take long before people pel in love with the speedy service, they called it, and the good food and it was cheap few food, too 15 cents a hamburger, so, yeah, that where is mcdonalds began, in the desert of california. Host they were the Mcdonald Brothers, dick and mac. Guest yep. Host big mac . Guest ironically, no. Host okay. So that was the very beginning, and it became quite popular. They became sort of wealthy from that day. Guest yeah, they were working as hard as anybody in the Restaurant Business does, which is very. They each worked until 11 00 at night. They felt really, really lucky because they were a able to buy new cadillacs every year. Neither bun was married, neither had kids. Lafd together in a house they fought up on a hill and they were just happy. They work hard but were making 100,000 a year profit, and life was good. Host that this in the early 50s. A lot of money. Guest lots. Host they were doing something right. Then other people started to becoming interested so day did in franchising, didnt they . They found through other trade magazine wrote about the speedy system, and basically they put the hamburger on the Assembly Line. They figured out in a small space to move the production of food very quickly out to you, the customer, as fast as i think it was in under ten seconds if you placed an order. Really, really quick. And so putting the hamburger on the Assembly Line was great, and other people all across america hoping hamburger stands, looking to entrepreneurial, Small Business people, businessmen usually, and so San Bernardino became mecca. People would flock there and stand outside and i left out an important detail, which is that the first mcdonalds was in glass so you could see in the restaurant, which now we see it all the time, but then was revolutionary. So what was so exciting was all these people would show up and want to steal the idea for this mcdonalds, and they would sketch and dick and mac saw these people sketching and realized we could probably sell this formula, so they put it in a manual, and they sold the idea and the didnt even really want to sell the name. Then that was didnt make any sense. Why use mcdonalds on your restaurant . But they did. People did. And for 950 fee, you got to buy the blueprints for mcdonalds, which included these golden arches, which eventually, as we know, became ubiquities to. Host that was the beginning. Now you ha other mcdonalds popping up . Yes. Host they were more interested in what they were doing in San Bernardino. They were happy doing mat why were doing. Guest yes, they had offers from people who wanted to take it national. But they were pragmatic but the didnt want to invest the time and energy in going state to state and slogging around. They were doing just fine. Host okay, but geographically. Lets move to the west ask man named ray croc who was doing his own thing but was an entrepreneur, hardcharging sealings guy. Now you bring him into the picture for us. Give us an idea who was ray croc. Guest ray croc was a heal fellow well met, a salesman, selling paper cups since a younge man. He then found a multispindled milk shake machine that allowed you do six at six and five at a time, which was revolutionary Technology Just as the paper cup was, and the paper cup was invented. And he just loved being on the road. Loved the ethos of the sale. He liked to figure out what it was that made you want what he was selling and he was just a larger than life personality. And so with this milk shake machine, thats how he encountered the brother. Host sew hes sell his milk shake machine and happens to go hears about the mcdonalds operation. What do you think happen behind ray croc met the mcdonalds brothers. Guest the mcdonalds brothers knew him as mr. Multimixers, because they bought many multimixers and ray was intrigued why would one little store made so mean of these multimixer machines. Host thats a mouthful . Guest you would thick by now id be able to say it. So he went there to say hello. They were happy to meet him because he sold them a very important piece of equipment that helped their business. They could bank milk shakes until you came up and needed a vanilla, it was out right away. So that was very helpful to theyre system. And they met ray and ray was dazzled. He described it in his autobiography, almost of is he is describing falling in love. The system was so perfect to him. Heed seep a lot of drug store counters and restaurants, and this system was beautiful and the fell in love with the eye efficiency and cleanliness. He was a neat freak and very happy to see this, and he wanted to figure out how to propagate it across the land because in hi mine, the more mcdonalds, me more multispindled milk shake machines would be souljah so started with milk shakes for him. Guest it did. So he meets the Mcdonald Brothers and sells them all these milk shake machines. Host at what point did he decide this needs to go back and how do i make third go big . When he fared laid eyes on the mcdonalds operation, all those other people were there sketching and trying to figure out how to rip off the idea, or more politely, emulate it, mimic it, but ray decided he didnt want to steal it. He wanted to help sell it. So that night he went for dinner with them and said, please let me franchise. They were reluctant. They had begun franchising and had a franchise agent who was working who became will not long after ray entered the pick tire, and the stars aligned and they basically said, you know, if you want to do it no skin off our backs go ahead and do it. So he started doing it. Host he started franchising it. That led him his First Franchise opening wasnt . Guest in des plaines, illinois, not far from where he lived in shack. Host that is the mcdonalds if you go to mcdonalds corporate they consider that they first opening of a mcdonalds in the united states. Guest yeah. Host it looks like a museum. Theres an actual mcdonalds functioning across the parking lot but looks just liked did in the old days. Host praying homage to the original, the ray croc store. Was he opening them in various places . Guest he wasnt opening them as quickly as you might think, and that is because people were opening their own hamburger stands without buying into the fran characterize, but he franchise but it was hard. Its hard to sell Something Like that. Hard to sell the formula. But he was doing okay. And he was a couple of years in when he went to st. Paul, minnesota, which is where our story take as a turn to the romantic. Now he starts to get into the ray and joan part here. Host so, lets book up just a little bit. Tell us about who joan is, before she met ray croc on that fateful evening. Guest so, joan was 26 years younger than ray. So ray was 52 at that point. So joan was in her 20s. She was a younge mother. She was a beautiful blond woman, and she was a very, very skilled pianist and organist, and back in the day, that was a very valued profession. People would play in restaurants, which she did. She played on television. Local television. She was so beautiful that the local tv owner hired her to play music in the breaks in between shows, because that was before videotape. And he also had a really good concern going selling im sorry selling lessons, Music Lessons to kids. So she was really working very hard with these three jobs, but the job she loved was at the cry tieron restaurant in she played the organ in the dining room, apparently up on a pedestal and entertaining the diners. Then after dinner hours she would go to the lounge where she played piano. Host now take us back to that evening, and now keep in mind ray is married, has a child at home . Yes. Guest yes, she is out of the house. Host and joan is married with a child. Now she is doing her thing the criteriaon. And ray walks in. Guest ray had been selling two years, in 1957. He walked in and was there to sell the owner of the restaurant a franchise. He asked ray to come. He never budget the milk shake machine mixer but the knew ray because of that and he invite ray. Ray came in to have a dinner meeting, and sure enough, he was way laid by this beautiful woman playing the organ and not only was he attracted to her youthful good looks but he himself was a pianist. He made money as a pianist early on in his life, and loved playing piano so he was taken by not just her looks but her technical, musical proficiency. So that was a very intoxicating thing for him. Host that meeting, did they actually immediate . How did that happen . Best i, tell, from talking with people and also from what ray says in his autobiographyy, which you take a couple of grapes of salt. He demanded to meet her. And, yes, he win over and said hello. The extent of the conversation has never been completely clear, even joans daughter hasnt she was there that night, too, her father came with her to pick joan up to take her home after work, but its not entirely clear the depth of the conversation, but what happens next suggests there might have been more to it than just this quick interaction, which is that joans boss, jim, bought a franchise, opened store number 93 in st. Louis parks, and hired joans husband to manage it. There was a spark that night but its going to be a while before its officialry ray and joan. Host even though their lives from then on may have been on separate but paths that continued to connect. Guest right. Host give us an idea what happened. Guest its important to point out that in 1957, and for several years forward, mcdonalds was not successful for the corporation. For the people who opened franchises, it was very lucrative, and they were paying a 1. 9 royalty to the mcdonalds corporation, of which half a percent was going to the mcdonalds brothers and that wasnt enough to keep the corporation growing at the rate that it needed to, and helping Corporate Police the standards from store to store. So, ray was under a lot of pressure because he was growing the company and he was hiring people who were very helpful to him. In fact in several cases they were enormously helpful. They helped save the business. But it was a difficult time because other people were starting to franchise, too. Mcdonalds had not invented franchising. Just came up waiver picker formula that really worked for them. But what is interesting is that the stories were doing great, and mcdonalds was becoming a nationally known brand. They were investing in advertising, local operators, like jim in minnesota, understood the power of advising, but the corporation was on a perilous slope to bankruptcy. Host so, with that consideration, what happens to sort of get the relationship now between joan and ray, who obviously felt something that night, back in the 1950s, 57. But seven more years before they got married. So we need to fill in the gap between what happened between that night and when they finally did get married. Guest so, joans husband was to good at managing this mcdonalds in st. Louis park, minnesota that, he got a large bonus, a 10,000 bonus, which was an incredible sum of money, and he took that money and plowed it back into his own mcdonalds and at that time people well get to this as it relates to this beautiful place where we are right now to open a mcdonalds is like the news business. You ha to go where the opportunity was, and joan and her husband were told they they had two choices where to go if they wanted to open their own franchise, and one was in allentown, pennsylvania and the would was in rapid city, south dakota, and because raleigh was from that part of the world they chose rapid city, south dakota. So, off joan and raleigh and their younge daughter moved to rapid city with extremely little money in their pockets and grand am missions if they opened this mcdonalds, then maybe their Family Finances would be on better footing themselves. And thats did. So joan at that point women were not allowed to work in mcdonalds. That was part of an edict from the Mcdonald Brothers, not just ray. But what wives were expected to help their husbands so jones, oversaw the construction of the set over golden arches on main street and started ordering the stache because the food all came locally, all sourced locally. Wasnt hauled in on a truck because ray was very committed to keeping the food local and the standards that meant that could be kept up. Host so life in south dakota now, where joan is working hind the scenes and probably do at lot really important things that at the time, a lot of women did that and didnt get the credit for. She clearly had some sense for business. Guest oh, yes, very shrewd and not afraid. Host so, how would they cross paths again t take us to the point i believe there was ray croc was married three times so another wife between when he and joan got married so that is a little bit of intrigue. So give us an idea what happens. They diverge again and eventually come together. Guest what is interesting that moment in time in the 60s they were both very committed to mcdonalds from different perspectives. Joan through her husband, raleigh and the franchise and then several other stores they opened in rapid city, and ray building this huge company with its opinion to point out, a man name hari, harry who was key and critical and coming up with the formula that mcdonalds got under good fitting fitting and that was to open the property the mcdonalds were on. Its hard to imagine how blank the landscape was because it is different than it is now. So these are people who had parcels of land in places where there was very little else going on, and so harry went in and helped negotiate bank loans and brokered deals with real estate owners and built these mcdonalds, and ray was much more the hamburger guy, whereas harry was the highminded finance guy. So that is going on while joans helping her husband. But they continued to somehow be involved with each other, and im pretty sure it had something to do with one of rays early hires who was a world war ii pilot, who owned a little cessna, and ray and harry and june mr. Teen know, who martin know who was integral a whole other book she ended enliving in florida i wont go too far ahead. The early mcdonalds core team would fly around the country in cessna and look overhead for the clutches and schools some identify parcels of land, but somewhere along the way, ray was stopping off in rapid city, and joan was seeing him somewhere. And so a relationship host a reelings reelings ship evolved. She was desperate to marry her. He married someone else, divorced this first wife, married someone else and in 1965, when mcdonalds went become and ray became wealthy, as did some of the people closest to him, that was when he was married to his second wife. So joan was still in rapid city when ray hit lifes lotto during the ipo of mcdonalds and became instantly work Something Like 33 million on paper. Host which is huge in that time. Guest really huge. Host you have to read the book to get to 1969 which is a critical year because thats the year they finally get married. Correct . Guest yes. Joan host what kind of wedding was it . Now theyre boast divorced a, be eight wedding or small thing guest very quick and small and it was at the j r double arch ranch, property that ray bought after the struck it rich in 1965, in part because he was extremely wealthy and this is a beautiful piece of property and because that is where he headquartered what was known what became known as the croc foundation. So it was both a little bit of a rumpus room for a mcdonalds folks and a retreat for ray and jane, his second wife. But when he divorced jane, his second wife, in order to marry joan it was very convenient the play was called the j r double arch ranch. In california. And the Central Coast. If anyone has been to the Central Coast of california, its a closer to l. A. Version of napa and sonoma valleys, quite beautiful. It was cattle country, and ray and his second wife lived in Beverly Hills so it was an easy weekend retreat. Host so they get married in 1969. He finally marries the woman he has been interested in for years. Guest for years. Host what it as idyllic as perhaps they thought it would be, having waited so long . It was for ray because ray felt likely was complete. He ha