Transcripts For CSPAN2 Santi 20240705

Phonte elijah holly is an Award Winning journalist and author of an american the shakers and nation. They created. His writing has appeared in the atlantic, the guardian, new republic, the washington post, l. A. Times and elsewhere. He lives in los angeles. Please join here and giving him a huge round of applause while he comes out and and then talks about his book. Thanks, ali. Thanks for coming out of retirement for this event. And thank you all for being here. Thanks to skylight so much having me i moved to l. A. A little over a year ago and you know, people me right away. This was the bookstore you got to come to. So here i so thanks for being here with me. I think what im to do is im going to read just a little excerpt from the first chapter, the opening the first chapter, which is the first part that i wrote for this book was a sort of the scene that sets the stage the rest of the book. So im going to read a short excerpt that, and then im going to talk a little bit about just the book itself, themes behind the book, how i came to write it, why i wanted to write it, and then ill read another little short. I promised the red shorts and. Then well yeah, have audience q a. All right, lets get it. So the name of this book is an American Family, the shakers in the nation. They created just came out on tuesday. So its hot off the press. And this is the. Opening of chapter one called the trial. In the Early Morning hours of april 2nd, 1969, detective Francis Dalton of new York City Police departments of special services and investigations arrives at the door of apartment 112 west 17th street in harlem. Heres accompanied by four additional officers armed with two bulletproof vests and one shotgun on the detectives command, the men light a rag on fire in the apartment hallway and begin shouting, fire, fire the two occupants of apartment nine, lumumba, shakur and his wife, afeni waked the cries and smell smoke. The number jumps up, looks through the doors people and sees the flames. When he opens the door, hes greeted a shotgun, pressed into his chest, while other officers stationed outside on the fire escape enter through the window and hold afeni at gunpoint one mile away that same morning, dhoruba woodard is apprehended from his apartment. Robert collier is taken custody from his home on east eighth street and a few blocks away, detective Joseph Coffey accompanied by his own team, kicks open the door. Michael situation labor holds gun to his head and declares, ive got to shoot you, black. If you move a blow your brains out before the sunrise in new york city, ten members of the harlem chapter of the black Panther Party are arrested and jailed, including a 17 Year Old High School student, jamal joseph, and 20 year old bronx Bronx Community College Nursing student bird. Others suspects, computer analyst sundiata okoli researched Curtis Powell quando kinshasa. Shabba om la miku blueberry and 17 Year Old High School student lonnie epps are later apprehended or surrender suspects. Richard harris and quasi balogun are already in a newark. An earlier bank robbery charge charges. The three remaining suspects, the three mack thomas machine and barry and sekou odinga managed to get away disappearing from sight from the raided. The nypd special Services Teams 538 caliber pistols, two military rifles, three shotguns, a pair of handcuffs, items that can be used as homemade explosive tvs. A map of bronx real raids, railroad stations, and a copy of the urban guerrilla warfare, written by black panther team captain quando kinshasa, 21, members of the black Panther Party are indicted on conspiracy to shoot Police Officers and bomb police stations. Railroad tracks, Manhattan Department stores and the new York Botanical in the bronx with jamal, joseph and epps granted youthful offender status. Barry too ill to stand trial due to his chronic epilepsy. Two members already held in new jersey and other charges in the three escapees. Only 13 ultimately stand trial. The case is formally recorded. The people of the state of new york versus lumumba. Abdul shakur et al. But defendants become internationally known as. The panther 21. The ensuing trial show the world for the first time how desperate american Law Enforcement is to eliminate the panthers and to make them an example of happens when black people in america dare to assert their right to selfdefense and selfdetermining. This is a quote from. This has been a systematic by the fascist pigs to stifle black liberation struggle in new york city. Lumumba wrote from jail. Now i realize the panther 21 arrest is all part and parcel of a national by the American Government to destroy the black Panther Party and all revolutionaries. So thats just a little opening from, the opening scene, and then it goes on to detail the and what happened in the trial, which which was the longest trial in new york state history at that point. And most expensive at the points the defendants were ultimately in jail for two years. We are trial and they were ultimately acquitted of all charges and but it was a Pivotal Moment for the for the for the black Panther Party and for the family, for strikers themselves. And im and ill talk a little bit about, first of all, what the black movement is itself. It sort of grew out of the black power movement, which itself grew out of disillusion with the civil rights movement. You know people were sort of becoming jaded by. The incrementalism, the sort nonviolent tactics, the civil rights movement. And so the black power sort of came about through that people, demanded more in immediate direct action, more just actions that would actually have a tangible result, rather than just sort of waiting for something to happen that was never seemingly happening. The black Liberation Movement is sort of a large umbrella, which which covers by party smaller organizations like the black Liberation Army republic of new africa, ram theres lots of different movements in organizations that sort of grew out of this this time, which was midsixties, and then on through the seventies. So the shakur family themselves were part of this movement, very integral, inspirational leaders, beginning with who i consider the patriarch, the shakers who took the saladin shakur, his birth name or his slave name was james costin, senior. He was an acolyte and associate in malcolm x and after malcolm x was assassinated. In 1965, people who were considered him his, you like their hero. You know, they were sort of left adrift. They dont really know where to go, how to carry on the movement. He had sort of you know, he was advocating. So thats where the black panther comes into formation. James costin, who became solid in shakur, he changed his name after converted to islam. I became a muslim and, really advocated for afro centrism in new york. There on new york city. And he had saladin had to sons his oldest son and is the second oldest son who changed their names to zaid and the loomis shakur. So thats really where the shakur family got to start. I mean, shakur, the name roughly translates from arabic into thankful or thankful and saladin, when he took that name and when his sons, lumumba and zaid took the name, they were announcing their commitments to not just panafricanism and islam, but just to carry on the struggle that malcolm x had sort of gotten started or that he been talking about and picking up the pieces that he left behind. So the family, you know, sort i began working on this book lets see when 2020 and 2020 there was the country was it seemed like every day it seemed like there was just something new happening, just daily protests, daily struggles, you know, just happened. Clashes, just uprisings across the country. And i mean its worth noting, actually, its today is the anniversary. Anniversary is the same day three years ago. George floyd killed, which i wanted to note because a lot of what happens today can be traced. I mean, you can see theres reverberations from what was happening in the obviously and people looking for a way to to express their outrage, you know, like we were in 2020 and like we still are. But i mean, this felt like we had all this outrage and confusion. We didnt know where to channel it, you know . So were just sort of just running wild in the streets. Its a while now and just like kind of just we needed something we needed to somewhere to express our outrage and i at this point and i think a lot of people at this point were starting to look at historical figures, entertainers or just leaders and tupac shakur, obviously, a lot of people, you know, these days are sort of starting to revisit his lyrics and his interviews and sort of realizing how prescient he was, you know, how forward thinking, how knowledgeable he in his lyrics. And now were starting to really look at where he came from. He didnt just come from nowhere like his and his knowledge about the black liberation struggle. You know, he grew up in that he was raised, he was cultivated by this, a very Strong Community that were supportive, intelligent, inspirational but also had faced a lot of trials in their lives. And so he knew that growing. And so he channeled that into his music and his art. And i just, you know, so i was looking at tupac and i was listening to him again. I was looking at lyrics and i was just like, wait, what, whats, whats with this . Like, how nobody else should listen . Talking about these things, you know, like nobody else was talking about class and Police Brutality and in the way that he was intimately familiar with it. And around the time, you know, i learned a little bit more about his mother, afeni, she you know, as a former black panther. But, you know, a lot of us all tupac fans, all really ever knew about afeni was dear, you know, like her struggles with drug addiction. Thats sort of like all we really knew for the most part. But then i started looking more into like who she heard that she was know very like a very important person the sixties. So i looked at her and her history. I was like, oh, thats crazy. Like shes actually a really important person. And i was and i was like, oh, well, who else in the family . Like, who else is tupac . Like, hes dropping names and saying if you listen to a lot of the songs course he doesnt mention mexico. Odinga just mentioned his stepfather and. Which lulu shakur. Assata shakur. He he shouts them out in his lyrics. So, yeah and so as they got older and started working, the more as a writer, as a journalist, really wanted to sort of explore this history more. And i was also, you know, writing a little bit more about social justice issues of Racial Justice issues and attending protests and looking for examples and stories to share that sort of provides us with some sort of context about what going through today, right . Like and i learned, yeah, there i learned about more to lose your core whos tupac my stepfather and what he did. He wasnt a black panther, but he was part of the black Liberation Movement and, the republic of north africa, his very influential leader in his own right. And i started trying put these threads together, was like, okay, i got i got tupac here. I got my school over here. Afeni, who are these other shakers over here . And then i was, i was trying to learn just for myself, but who are all these people . Whats this family about . And i could not find anything definitive and any sort of history that actually tells the story. You know, i like everything online. Everything has been published before. Its very contradictory, incomplete things that are sort of inaccurate. I was just like, whats the whats the true story here . Like, whats going on . I want to know about this family. So i just kept coming up against dead ends when i was trying to learn the story behind this family. Yeah, at that point, im just like well, i guess i got to write the book like like, i mean, if you know, so, you know, and which wasnt that. It wasnt just like, oh, me just call them up, you know, let me just look them up online and up the facebook and send a message and like, hey, dont talk to me like, dont know who i am, but, but, and then being like a lot of patience and trust a lot of people really trusted me when i, when i had idea for the book, i really wanted to tell the story. Honestly. I wanted to tell not just the story about the family. Its not just like a family biography or a family genealogy. Its a story its a historical. Narrative, a historical story about. What this family and the people that they worked with and the people that they fought with what went through, you know, what they sacrificed, the things that they that were thrown against them, the things that they survived ultimately. And i, you know, honestly didnt know if i was could pull it off for for a long time because a lot of have really sacrificed so much incarcerated lost loved ones. And i understand that they wouldnt be so willing and excited to talk to some random guy whos just im writing a book about this family, but i think when i you know, when introduced myself and said, this is how i want to approach, this is who i am, i feel like the stories are really to be told and has never really been told. You know, people a lot of folks, a lot of veterans came around a lot of times i would just meet somebody, one person, and then, you know, we talk for you a couple of hours, a few hours, and then they would say it and then, okay, ill put in a word for you. You know, like who else are you trying to talk to . And then i was like, well, you know, id love to talk to, you know, this person, that person, like all right, let me call him up and see if he wants to talk. So it was, you know, over many years over like over two years of just persistence and also just. Just to just believing that i had a chance to just introduce myself and talk to them and say, you know, i just want to tell you, i want to share your stories im not trying to come at it from a particular angle. I just to share your stories. So theres a lot of really just like firsthand testimony here was a lot of quotes. You know, i talked to a lot of people who know came up with the who worked with them to fight with them. You theres somebody in the audience. Im really honored that shes here. Yeah, it was it was a lot it was a labor of love and just dedication and just wanting to feel like these stories need to be shared and, like, want to let my voice kind of like, be in the background a little bit, you know, because i want their stories to come forward and i and i, they did so yeah. So with the book, its interesting though beginning of the 1960s with the trial and the opens, the trial and it goes back a little bit to malcolm x and what you know, the shift from civil rights to black power into black panthers, into the black Liberation Army was a more Clandestine Organization that, worked underground. And then how tupac, you know, was a child of that and how he was raised in that by his roots, raised in the movement and how he felt like he wanted carry that that on but he you know he got wrapped in the industry you know he somebody who up in poverty like homeless at times hungry many times really committed to the struggle and wanting to continue his familys tradition. But also as a young man and now people are throwing money at him and throwing themselves at him. And he was conflicted and like, i want to honor my family and the struggle but i also kind to get paid like im an attention and like being a movie star, like being in a movie with janet jackson, you know, like, so its like, but youre trying to reconcile those two sides of him because those two sides were always within him, you know. Yeah. So, i mean, i dont know. I, im really happy with how it turned out. Its only been out for a couple days. But, you know, ive heard back from some people who really have been very supportive of it. And im really just im just pleased and honored know like that i had the opportunity to tell the story i do want to. Talk about the title for a minute because its its its its something that ive have been asked before and i and i, its an important question. So the title is an American Family, right . With the k the reason why i titled it that. Because i would say lot of people in the movement and this particular family and people that they were surrounded by wouldnt call themselves americans. Right. They dont consider americans icons of african new african with the k. Thats really important to say. You know, theyre part of the new African Independence Movement and. But my and my reasons for titling an American Family with a k first of all the k an american is its been used since at least the 1970s to buy antiimperial to antiracist individuals, activists who. Want to make a connection between. This countrys racist history and tie it to klan. I mean, the ku klux klan and say theres no separation between the history of this country and klan behavior. So a lot of times, you know, people in this movement will write america with the k or three k is basically just just to condemn and satirize, you know, the country itself, but also. One called American Family, because they feel like this family and people who they worked with and there are different organizations are a product of this country, you know, like the product of the racism, repression that they face. They came about to challenge that. They came about they they coalesced to challenge the system. So they are a product of this country as much as this country is a product of other dissidents like them. I mean, you know, we celebrate our rebels and our Freedom Fighters in this country, you know, part the country is in the beginning like to be, you know, kind of an american and be proud to be american to celebrate rebellion and dissidents and fighting against oppression. Right. So they are an American Family because they are a product of their product of this country. As much as this country is a product of people who are also fighting for freedom freedom. Yeah. So i think maybe our read an a read a little from the end of the introduction. Because its a well, when i but before i do before i do. This, of course. To call this because cause a family is. Yet to think outside of what we think of about as traditional family, like blood relatives, you know, like youre born into the family youre not necessarily born a shakur to take the name shakur as an honor. Its saying that you aligning yourself with, this family in the movement. You dont take it lightly. You know, people who call themselves shakur especially back in the day when you that name. It was it was a it was a ceremony had to be invited in and you would a shakur from then on out and that said you were committed to the youre committed to the family. Youre committed to, you know, the improvement of black in the country and not everybody whos we think as shakur, you know, was born shakur afeni changed name. I was the saudi the movement and they change their names but. Theres also people who dont call themselves cause who didnt take the name, who are still a part of the family. They still are shakur sekou odinga, you know, bilal, sunny ali, i would say they are shakurs and. People were just so so somebody like Assata Shakur who you know, most of us familiar with Assata Shakur, so brilliant thinker and writer living in exile in cuba. Since 1980. She is a shakur by honoring name. You know she took the name later in life after she was already on the run after she was already wanted by authorities and after her good friends. H. A. Was killed by new jersey Police Officers on the turnpike in 1973. She took the shakur to honor her friends aid and to carry on his and other family members name legacy. Tupac also wasnt born. Shakur, for that matter. His his name was changed later. But you can read that he became he was born he was given a different name birth. But mother afeni given the name shakur shortly after and he carried that name the weight of that name with him for his whole life life. So this was the end of the introduction introduction, sort of just introducing the family and the themes, the legacy of the shakur family exists all around us and culture activism and our professional lives. When we listen when we listen to the work of black songwriters who both compassion, animosity, love and indifference, social consciousness and nihilism, we hear tupacs influence when we read the work of poets and authors who speak to the collective by experience, while also yearning, home and family. We are relating asada when demand our right to represent ourselves, whether in the courtroom or the bedroom we are following in the path set forward by. Afeni when we seek holistic and nonwestern forms medical treatment, we are benefiting from the groundwork laid by mature material. The shakurs helped to magnify the beauty and possibilities of being black in america. They were a catalyst of black recovery and all resistance from aboveground Community Organizing to, clandestine Armed Struggle wherever was a fight against persecution, shakurs were at the forefront. They fought noble battles, won important victories. Theyve made critical errors and suffered devastating. They have been connected. Shocking acts of violence in to the violence perpetrated against them. But through it all, they have never in their commitment to the liberation of black people in america. You can see their legacy in the streets of ferguson kenosha, minneapolis and dozens of other American Cities from coast to coast. You can hear their influence on todays top Musical Artists from beyonce to kendrick lamar. America still has a long way to go before. I can honestly say it has granted its black citizens equal protection under the law or that black americans are afforded the same right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As white americans. Until that day comes and so black people in this country have received justice for hundreds of years of persecution. America will not know peace. This is the nation. This, of course, created. Thanks. Not give. Give it up more for a son. T t. Against me. Thank you so we are going to now and turn to the audience question portion of the evening. I have the very special microphone. If you do not want to be. C span booktv, you dont ask a question because is their thing thing. But yeah. Okay with you. Hi. Hi. Im wondering if you could talk about your choice to write in the present tense and do you do that throughout the book . Yeah, if i writing the present tense, the opening chapter of the opening segment and opening scene that i read from is present tense. Is just that opening scene. It wasnt always way. There was originally and just the past tense. But my first, my first editor, my first set of eyes on it, my girlfriend read it and just thought it should be more powerful in the first and in the present tense. And i tried it out and i was like, oh god, youre right. Right. But then i shift after the opening scene because opening scene is just like throws you into the action right . And then after that and then we go back a little bit in time to sort of bring us to that scene. And thats when i go back to past tense. But its just, just opening scene is in present tense. Do you remember the moment or the feeling that drove your interest in taking this from piquing your curiosity and learning more to wanting to take it to page and like dig deeper, my interest in just my interest going beyond just my initial interest and then wanting to spend the next and a half years on a book was realizing that the story has not been completely and i wanted it for myself and i think any anything that i about as a journalist or as an author like i i have to be really in it and really believe in it. And so my initial interest in the subject and the story i just kept being i kept wanting more. I was just like, i need i need to know more of this history, more the story. And i wasnt finding it. And i think i was like, well, i got to be the one to do it. And you know. And it was it was i, i just wrote sort of an outline. I dont really know that much. Begin with i was just sort of i hadnt really done research or talked to anybody before that point, but i was just trying to learn what i could. And so i just wrote a proposal and i was like, i think i have something here. And you know send it to my my agent. And then it to an editor and theyre like, oh yeah, for sure. Ill do it. All right, lets do this. Lets do some. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like if you grow up in this country y, especially in the eighties and seventies and nineties, you know, youre taught that the black were, quote unquote, terrorist group. And thats how you learn about them. If you learn anything all about them, that is what you hear about them. And i wonder, obviously, if any had a major role in the black panthers, the has a deep history in the black panthers if you entered this book having preconceived notions about the black panthers or if you were fully aware of sort of the entire spectrum of what they did in america, my its a its a great question and. My knowledge of the black Panther Party prior to working on this book, huey newton, bobby seale, oakland bay area panthers, selfdefense, you know. Its kind of like thats the image, the images we see you know like them holding shotguns and with the black black Leather Jacket those are the images that i think a lot of us see in like they were we know what theyre doing. Theyre just theyre doing something cool, just holding shotguns. I mean, knew about the black panther. I knew about the breakfast program. The free breakfast for schoolchildren. I knew a little bit about that. I didnt know really until going into the book how the were nationwide. They werent just, you know, in the bay area. They were i mean, they huey newton and bobby seale when they started the black Panther Party for selfdefense in oakland. I dont think they any idea that it would spread you know across the country but with that sort of decentralization and you know what i learned is that there were really in this case actually literally fatal differences between east coast and west coast, you know, which years later. But the east the east coast panthers, new york, which is what the shakur family were part of, had different ideas of of what it meant to be a panthers. And then huey newton instance and that they came to heads, you know, came to loggerheads a lot. And that with but no mean i learned more. The biggest thing i learned about the black Panther Party researching book that i did not know before was how much infighting and how much there was then. I mean, it must be as it needs be said that a lot of it was fueled by cointelpro, by the fbi. J. Edgar hoover was actively trying to destroy the movement, destroy the panthers with with and you know, the secret with, with sending phony letters to different panther leaders insult ing them, you know, undercover cops and that. So they had the fbi who was actively trying to destroy them, but they also fighting amongst each. And that was really heartbreaking to see it, just that they had this great that could have done so much and did do so much at the beginning. But just became fractured over time because of various forces. Yes. Like. You, you actually led into one thing that i was curious in writing your book, the you saw that was a lot of dissension between groups within the black movement. You have angela davis. You all these other different groups there, even within what happened with with malcolm x, nation of islam were people you were speaking with trying to guide one direction or another. Oh you cant mention them or cant talk about them or these guys were bad or these guys were good. Did you find even now, your research of the book that that different folks were trying to drive you Different Directions or that there was still animosity or what was that experience like for in having to pull out things, different people from different sect . A great question. I the people who i spoke to did not try to guide me in a particular direction i feel like all recognized just how much they had survived the trauma they still holds at this day and there really isnt any need impress upon me or anyone else what they survived because you know the facts are out there like i know this history pretty well and i would say i know you know what youve been. And so, you know, theres a little bit of just like, well, you already know, like what weve what weve faced. And so i dont need to tell you anything. I dont think anybody shied away from from saying like we were up against the system, you know, we didnt know what we were truly up against or how massive it was. Theres a lot of idealistic, you know, like behind what they are doing. And there are young but at this point, a lot of them a lot of these veterans are just older now and can look back at the time and just be like, yeah, we messed up here and there. Were also up against something really strong that we could not possibly take down on ourselves. We also made a lot of faults a lot of everybody i spoke to did at least, you know, did admit that there were mistakes made, that theres things that, you know, could have been done better with, more intention. But, you know, with the benefit having years behind you and having you know age, you know, an older age and you look back when youre young and idealistic and just like we made a lot of mistakes and i think thats what everybody at least was honest about, at least know with me or saying we made mistakes, but our heart was in the right place. The other questions. Just. I have an interesting what i think is an interesting to your second edition. In 1968, i was i was and i left the country and went to sweden. And while there there you mentioned curtis as being one of the panther 2021. Well, his wife came over with his two kids, coyote and tsa, two beautiful kids. And my girlfriend. And i took care of them. While he was going through his trial there. And i had to leave before i actually found out what happened. Whether he did, i heard, i heard that he had he came and got the kids went to i guess it was ghana or mali, one of the two im sorry. His word that. He came and got the kids from sweden and went to mali or ghana. I believe. I dont know if you know anything about about these guys. These guys are this. Over 50 years ago. So i these are these are adults here. But anyway, that this is a plus. We had a black Panther Party Solidarity Committee there in sweden. So we got to meet, you know, whenever they came over to speak, when bobby came over or whoever came to speak, they would we would take them around to various european countries. And we had this is chris paul still is he still with us or you know, what a . Thats that. I cant i cant. I thought maybe you might have a Little Information on some of your a lot of a lot of folks a lot of folks after the after the trial after their acquitted on all of the panther 21 defendants moved on to lives know like they started their families they raised their family. You know, some of the panther 21 carried on the struggle carried on the fight. They felt like thats what they had to do. But others are just like, i just i want to just, you know, start my family and, you know, raise family and. Yeah, so i wasnt, i was not unfortunately, you know, unfortunately, theres lot of people who i dont know what became of them because i think thats the way they wanted it, you know. But thanks for sharing that. What impact do you feel that the fracturing of black Panther Party had on tupac and his music since he had roots both in the east coast and west coast . Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was. I mean, and the whole east coast, west coast thing. So and so silly, you know, like it makes a lot of sense now. With why well yeah tupac was born in new york city and then later moved to california and then he became sort of, you know, so associated with california that people lose sight of the fact that hes, you know new york born and raised. Um, im sure he knew of the factions, the factionalism, um, between east and west coast. What he knew most of all was, you know the party of the black Panther Party. What it to his family, what it did to his immediate his mother. You know, he talked a lot about growing up and having to to run from, you know, officers who were, you know, looking for his family. He and a sister said know they had come, you know, knocking on doors, looking for a stepfather to who was underground at the time and wanted by the fbi. So he grew up knowing what it was like to be persecuted and chased and followed and that kind of trauma. And i feel like lot of the children of the movements, you know, they carry that trauma of my familys, you know, the government trying to kill them. And so we had a lot of, you know, in its early music years all of his music his a lot of rage. I that was really impacted from what hes you know what he grew up with just knowing like not only were his his his family, these fighters, these inspirational. Its not just like, you know, all these inspirational, larger than life figures. Its like, oh they were damaged from what happened to them. You know, they were imprisoned. They had a loved. They watched their loved ones die. So we had you know, he carried he carried a little bit of a of bitterness and vindictiveness. And i think that came out in his music. And, you know, i think wanted to do something more positive, but he carried sort of just like heaviness with him, i think throughout his his artistic career. Like you, first of all, i cant wait to read this book. This has been exciting to. Hear you talk about it. So thank you for. Writing it. Thank you for about three to ill get into it tonight text you later. Actually my question piggybacks of that could you just talk about your process as a writer in being able to confidently get into tupacs head, be able to say with confidence about the conflicts that he had about the vulnerability he had, about the rage that he expressed, other than maybe the, you know, is obvious public representation. I mean, nobody really can not get into tupacs you know, he is he was a i dont think he even that was going on in his own you and dont know if i could confidently speak for what he was going through. I think all i could do writing the book is to speak to what he was experiencing and why may have been so angry and sad and conflicted like he is. You know, we with tupac, hes become this larger than life mythological person who we sort of throw our own ideas of who he was, you know like hes like a thug life or hes whatever he is this or that. I wanted to sort of. Him as just this very conflicted kid traumatized, you know, confused, sensitive, Vulnerable Person and let that of speak for yourself to show what he was going through and show like show his words and his lyrics and how he changed over time and the things that the pressures that he was facing, like the immense pressures that he was facing, i mean, was carrying his family with, you . He was he was financing them. He had his own struggles with he was just wild. And at all times just getting into trouble here and there and. You know, i dont try to like psychoanalyze him, but i did try to explain what he was going and and all those pressures that he was facing. Show him in more of a complete out person of complete, slightly damaged person, rather than just like hear all the stories that youve heard a million times before. So i wanted to connect him to the struggle you know, first and foremost, i mean, the book is about the family and the things that they survived and the the ways that theyve carried on the movement. So we really did want connect tupac to that. And i dont to get into a whole tupac, you know, thing where im talking about him and what he what he was thinking here and there but. I did want to show what he was. You know. The challenge that hes faced in that he wanted to honor his family, but he also needed to get paid. And i just won show him as sort of like a real person, a real, you know, young man who was who was who made a lot of the mistakes he made were just happened to be in front of everybody in the public eye. You know, he couldnt just make a mistake and be like, oh, it was like it would be all the covers on newspapers if you know the news news and the way that affected him too, that he just he was no longer had a private life where he could work out his own issues and his own traumas. Everything in the public. So thats what i hope. You know, i to show that more than anything was just like everything he was facing rather than what he was thinking at the time. We have time for one more question. We have time for one more question. If no one has one, i have a question question. You. Just minister. Mark, im actually curious about the title more. You talked about the first part, and im curious about the second part specifically, the nation they created. And if its in reference to the country or themself and what, what, what nation you think they created. Yeah, thats a great question. The nation the nation that they created. I mean, a nation is not just a nation state, right . Its not just america. A nation can be, you know, a People United under like religious or ethnic or just common cause, common struggle can form a nation and a nation can grow or can or can break apart. You know, nations do and this, of course, created a nation, people who were dedicated and passionate for black liberation. And that nation is within a nation, i mean, oppressed nations historically in this country have always been of a nation within this nation. Like theres the theres the system itself as a nation state. But then there are oppressed communities that form a nation. And thats the nation that the shakurs helped to build. The build a struggle, build awareness and consciousness. And that is, you know, carries on today. Any time you see any sort of grassroots direct action activism, people who are just serving the Community Without sort of, you know, flags or signs or yard signs just doing the work quietly for the community thats, you know, is something that the shakers helped to cultivate and build. I do want to give a shout out to, sister yasmeen fuller, whos as a honored guest, shes. I was i was honored. I was to speak with her for. The book she shes been around from the beginning. Shes an elder, a veteran, worked with the shakur, good friends with afeni shakur, helped young tupac. Has to had stories and stories and. It was a blessing to be able to connect with her. Also, the mother of jackie khadafi, who was a rapper and outlaws group outlaw immortals, who was tupacs group. Shes mother. So i just wanted to just acknowledge you and say thank you very much. When i come outnow to business s the author of viera mrs. Vladimir nabokov, which won the 2000 Pulitzer Prize for biography and saintexupery a biography which was a finalist the 1995 Pulitzer Prize. Her most recent include cleopatra a life and the witches,