Get to prosecute you for violating our laws even if i dont accept that youre subject to the more complete jurisdiction. Your question goes at it from the other end. If were waiving their compliance with even all the laws, even under jims version of subject to the jurisdiction, theyre not entitled to birthright citizenship. That, i will pass over to you. Yeah, look, yes, absolutely. If the 14th amendment said only the children of u. S. Born only the u. S. Born children of citizens are entitled to birthright citizenship, yes, we can still enforce immigration laws. The two have nothing to do with each other. Well, this has been a great debate. I want to thank you both for being here. Please join me in thanking our speakers. Today the president s in camden, new jersey speaking about the criminal justice system. Live coverage of the president s remarks starts at 4 15 eastern on cspan 2. Later on, the House Veterans AffairsCommittee Hears testimony from subpoenaed witnesses on the alleged misuse of a department of Veterans Affairs program relocating workers. Thats live at 7 30 p. M. Eastern on cspan 2. Our landmark cases series continues tonight. Our Program Follows the case of shank versus united states, where in 1917, charles shank was arrested and found guilty for distributing literature against the world war i draft. Thats live tonight at 9 00 eastern on cspan and cspan 3. Justin webley is the archbishop of canterbury. Recently he talked about the role of religion and Global Affairs with nprs tom gjelten. Topics include the refugee crises in europe and the rise of religiously motivated violence. This is just over an hour. Thank you very much. Welcome, everyone, to the council on Foreign Relations. Thanks for coming on this especially early morning. I hope it will be a good and stimulating start to your day. Im tom gjelten from npr where i am the religion and relief correspondent. Its my honor to lead this Council Meeting today with the most reverend justin welby, archbishop of canterbury. Reverend welby is the senior bishop and principal leader of the church of england and symbolic head of the worldwide anglican communion. Hes the 105th in line in that position going back many hundreds of years. Im going to be engaging reverend welby in conversation for about 30 minutes, then you will get your turn to jump in. One reminder, those of you who are regulars here at the council know its your duty to turn off your cell phones at this point so were not interrupted. So welcome, reverend welby. Thanks for squeezing us in. I know you have a busy schedule and a very short visit here to washington, just for a couple days. Sadly, yes. Maybe you could begin by giving us a sense of the anglican communion worldwide, the church here in the u. S. But also around the world. Give us a sense of the communion. The communion is has churches in about 165 countries, with 38 what we call provinces, each headed by a presiding bishop. I have never quite worked that out but there you are. Sounds to me like a camping stove. The primus is very good, it does the same role. The 38 provinces are each autonomous but interdependent. The church of england for historic reasons to do with the empire, to do with the expansion of christianity through britains role in mission, Foreign Missions in the 19th century, is the sort of where it all started from and the see of canterbury as its called is the titular center of the Anglican Community. The average anglican is an african woman in her 30s, living in Subsahara Africa on less than 4 a day. So what you see in this country or in the united kingdom, aus industrial i cant, new zealand, canada, is really the exception. On the whole, to use pope francis phrase, we are a poor church with the poor. Its an amazing statistic. And theres about 18 million of them. 18 million. Roughly. And so where that is a very important data point. But where does the where is the concentration . Whats sort of the macro data behind that . Where is the membership growing . What are the trends you see . Its very typical of many of the traditional historic churches. The main line churches typically are growing in the global size a south and so are we and shrinking or static in the global north and so are we. In england, we were at our height in the 1930s, about 3. 5 Million People, and today we are about 1. 2 million, bit more, 1. 5 million depending on how you measure it, and whereas in nigeria, roughly 17 to 20 Million People attend Anglican Churches on a regular basis. Now, you say that these provinces, 38 provinces, are autonomous. What exactly does that mean, specifically with relation to your own role as archbishop of canterbury . What does it mean to be the symbolic head of the Anglican Community . Well, you probably, some people may know belfours correct saying about the house of lords in the united kingdom, that the house of lords has power without responsibility. The privilege throughout the ages. The archbishop of canterbury has responsibility without power which is the privilege of the monk throughout the ages. It is a symbolic role. I cannot order anyone to do anything. So when we gather the primeates which were hoping to do in january, the first time in four years, its an invitation, its not an instruction. And if i gave an instruction quite properly they would ignore it. But that works in england as well. The archbishop of canterbury has influence but not power. And i think that is the key thing and the influence depends on a mixture of Spiritual Life and of seeking to work with and build groups focused on particular issues that affect the communion or the church of england or whatever it happens to be. So its not a personal primacy the way the pope is. The way that it works in Different Countries is very different. In many countries in Subsaharan Africa when the archbishop says something, the people tend to do what theyre told. In england, they consider that an interesting suggestion as a starter for discussion. So with so many of your members, so many of the provinces being in the global south, what challenges does that present to you as the archbishop . You just mentioned just outside the door here that from here, you head basically to cairo. To what extent does that reflect the way you structure your work . Is that Mission Structure would be a euphemism. Symbolic to use the word of the morning. I think what it is, its not unique to us. Quite the reverse. We are just a type, a paradigm in some ways, of the problem i think most people in this room will be facing and this is a theme i have been more and more conscious of over the last year. That if you have a mobile telephone, modern mobile telephone, apple or iphone or Something Like that, you have the entire world in your hand. All the stuff comes in from twitter, through the news feeds, through the blogs, its all there. But there is no personal relationship. So you have variety, diversity, coming at you at a huge rate in an unprecedented rate. In the 19th century when the divisions in the Anglican Community were certainly as complicated as they are now, they took several months to get to you by ship. Now they come at you in microseconds. And yet, you dont have the personal facetoface contact which enables you in the way that through diplomacy, through prayer, through interaction at the human level, through facing, to deal with that and thats typical of business, of diplomacy, of the church, of many many different areas. So there are two ways, first of all, we have to build structures that enable us to be able to trust each other and not to be drawn into conflict by our structures within any institution, any global institution, and thats a massive challenge. Its a massive challenge for everyone here as well as for us. Secondly, you do have to spend time going to see people and sitting down with them and listening with them so when im in cairo, later in the week, i will be sitting listening to some global south primates who will be quite critical of things ive done and they may well be right. Theres often plenty to be critical of. And i will listen to them, we will pray together, and the diversity is held in personal relationship. But i think thats a common problem in the world today, which we are increasingly struggling to deal with. Youre being quite candid about the disagreements or even divisions within the communion. Pope francis has talked often about, he uses the term idealogical colonization referring to the sort of tendency of liberal congregations in the north sort of imposing their kind of liberal agenda around social issues on the south. Were all familiar i think with what happened here in the Episcopal Church a few years ago with the ordination of a gay bishop and the ramifications that has had throughout the south. Can you explore that a little bit . What has been your experience as archbishop in dealing with these really difficult disagreements, principally around issues of sexuality, social issues, marriage, homosexuality, et cetera . Well, im very aware that in this room, that most people have forgotten more about this than i will probably ever know so i will speak cheerfully as i usually do from ignorance. I think one of the things that strikes me, and i need to declare an interest, i came from a family that on my mothers side that was involved in running bits of the British Empire for generations, so im one of the bad people on this, that when you talk to leaders in the global south, whether its politicians or listen to people in the global south, whether its politicians or church leaders, religious leaders, we need to remember that religion in the global south is still the predominant feature of life. We mustnt forget that. Someone a few years ago involved in ngo said oh, were going to do this, they were talking about a particular country in Subsaharan Africa. They said we are going to do this not involving religious people because they will be biased. I tactfully said which telephone box are you going to meet in. You cant get away from the reality of religion. But the sense with leaders that colonization has not stopped, its merely undergone a metamorphosis. Its become it looks like Something Else. Let me give you two examples. First of all, economically. Many countries in Subsaharan Africa, burundi, for example, need to develop their economy through agriculture yet they have immense difficulties shipping Agricultural Produce into europe because of subsidies by the european union. That is a form of colonization. It keeps them in poverty, keeps them in dependency. Socially, you have mentioned the issue of sexuality is one that goes intensely deeply into the way that the world is understood by all of us. Its a question of identity for many people, for almost all people, and the imposition as it is seen in the global south of new approaches to what it is to be human is resented more deeply than it is possible to describe. And this is a sense of hang on, you are telling us whom and what we should be. A senior figure in one country said to me a few years ago, he said i didnt go through, he was an elderly man then, he said i didnt go through the colonial period and get rid of you people in order for you to come back in a different form and do the same to me as you were doing before. And i think theres that sense, that colonialism has not stopped. Im not saying that gives us a solution but i think we do need to be frank and to identify the problem very, very clearly. Its economic, its social, its on issues like sexuality where our understanding of the nature of the human being has changed very dramatically in the postwar period and it goes to a lot of philosophical underpinning of our views of the human being, the postmodernist move towards radical autonomy has a profound effect on the way we see our society should be structured, which does not cohere with many other countries. So as at least the symbolic head of the Anglican Community, do you see that there is a place for Church Teachings, or is there no room for Church Teachings sort of in the global sense . Do you have to sort of leave the definition of doctrine, therefore, to each province . No. Absolutely not. If were going to talk pure church here, at the heart of Christian Faith is at the heart, at the core is the encounter with jesus christ, with the risen living present jesus christ. For those who are christians, we understand that in different ways, but we meet jesus, it is all about jesus. There isnt another way, its not a body of doctrine in which jesus features. Its about jesus and the doctrine springs from the churchs struggle to understand who this figure was, this figure understood to be both for the g fully god and fully human. So when we come back to that, when we come back to the call of christ, to serve the poor, to sacrifice, to take up his cross, to bear suffering with him, the church tends to unite albeit struggling with issues of doctrine. But what we all struggle with and im not criticizing anyone else, what i find within me as well as in the situation in which i work, we struggle with wanting our own view of how that doctrine applies to be the universal view. So no, we cant just say well, in england, you can believe this and in kenya, you can believe that. Thats not how Christian Faith works. We believe that in christ, we are all one. National barriers and racial barriers and stereotypes are broken down or extinguished, dissolved. That is crucial. Thats my hope and vision for the communion. My prayer for the communion is it will be a place which says in a world of immense diversity coming at you in your face, there is hope to live together, to be a people who collaborate for the common good, serving christ and the anglican commute is one of those bodies that should demonstrate that. Just to take one example, would you let i guess you have no choice, but to let each province then sort of approach the issue of the role of women sort of at their own pace. Yes. We do. At their own pace, given that it took the church of england just over 30 years from saying there is no doctrinal objection to the ordination of women as bishops to the point where we ordained women as bishops, at our own pace is not always noticeably swift. So you have done a lot of work in africa and the issue of religious violence is pressing around the world but its hard to imagine it being any more intense than in countries like nigeria, for example. But throughout Subsaharan Africa, tensions between muslims and christians have turned violent in so many cases. Talk a little bit about what role you have played and what role the communion has played in attempting to resolve some of these very deep issues. I think the communion lets talk about the communion and i will say one or two things about myself but trying not to overpersonalize it. Over the first 20 months that i was in post, i managed to visit with my wife all 38 provinces to meet the primates, not to see the whole province. That would be ridiculous. But just to meet personally with the primates in each province. One of the things that was most striking in that, one of the common features in that, was involvement in reconciliation work and mediation work. It seems to somehow be in the dna of anglicanism, despite our own differences we seem to find ourselves doing this stuff. So when you go to the south sudan, we had a particularly memorable trip to the south sudan, which at the time was in the middle of some very very severe fighting, bodies everywhere and it was a dreadful, dreadful place of suffering. And the drc similarly, we were there a few days later, eastern drc. What we found in south sudan was the aurchbishop leading the reconciliation work. We see that all over the place. So the communion, i know that the presiding bishop here has been very involved in this, the communion is deeply involved in reconciliation and in our own struggles we need to find a way of modeling how you do that. We will always have significant differences. Thats sort of off piece, thats in parentheses. My own role i think is having some difficulty despite my best efforts to be everywhere, always, is to bless that work of reconciliation and to strengthen it and for us to encourage and develop local skills in reconciliation where they are facing conflict. More than half or provinces are facing prosecution or are in actual conflict. More than half. More than half. So that really means this is for me, one of the key issues because war is so the more you see of it, i spent quite a lot of time during this over quite many years now, long before i was archbishop, the agony that you see is beyond all description and as many people here know, it sears the soul. What so we need to be involved in that. What does that look like . I think it involves building skills and building capacity in the way that you would expect, but it also involves a willingness to reexamine ourselves and our own role in conflict. The west, the Economic System which often generates conflict, the overspill from conflicts in which we may have been involved i think one of the striking things in Northern Nigeria was has been over the years that the way they have watched the mesopotamia and the holy land and the developments there and have found either inspiration or provocation from them. Its not the decisive reason. Theres plenty of very local, the main reasons are locally historic based in ethnic and religious features, but it contributes. And we also need to get away from simply a binary christianmuslim question. In myanmar, i had a call when we were there, we were meeting bishops whose whole diocese were torn apart by fighting going on which involved no muslims. South india, we have seen significant pressure on Anglican Churches and other churches there over the last 18 months, two years. Almost one of the most interest