Thanks for this opportunity to talk about your great new book. Journalist writer for the atlantic. Ive recently learned Detroit Lions fan thanks for thanks writing this bk. Its really a brilliant piece of political and, religious journalism. And i also read it as a kind of heartfelt plea for the evangelical to, you know, quoting from revelation to write to return to their first love. So i think that was the church of ephesus. Its not i know its not easy saying things about the tribe, the community, religious community in which you sort of came of age. And i know that takes courage. So thanks. Well professor. Youre very kind for saying that thank you because i that youve lived through this thing and you know firsthand how difficult it is to be the squeaky wheel and to step out of line with your own tribe and. Ill be honest, you know, i dont feel particular really brave or, courageous in doing this. I wish, frankly, that i would have had the courage to do it a long time ago. This problem festered and got to where is today . I think if im honest, there was a long period of time for me where i knew that the problem existed, could see it. I could observe it. And i just kept quiet about it. And i think for the reasons that many of us keep quiet, you know, you dont want to air the laundry of your family. You want to make people look bad, especially, you know, that that, you know, they might have the best of intentions and a good heart but maybe theyve just lost their way a little bit and, you know, ultimately it took sort of a tragedy in my life to really reckon with this and confront it and and i, i feel almost guilty saying that because i wish that had been able confront this a long time ago and. I hope for anybody listening if they take nothing else from all of this that that hopefully they will find the courage do so. Yeah. Lets talk a little bit about this. I mean, lot of a lot of these interviews begin with, you know, how did you get interested in the book. Im interested in that question. But lets do it through your dad. Tell me tell me a little bit about your dad or tell us a little bit about your dad, his spirit sort hovers over this book. I dont know if thats evangelical theology, but. But what his spirit is definitely that you dedicate this book to as a way of kind of getting into the subject and your motivation writing it. And i know youve talked this before, but tell us a little bit about your dad. So my dad was an amazing guy, just someone who could have done anything he wanted the world and in fact as a young man, he was kind of a hotshot new york rising rapidly in the world of finance and was sort of able to call his own shots and had the world at his feet and around the time that he was about years old. He started to just this crushing, empty, despite having a great salary, a cadillac to drive, and a beautiful home, beautiful wife, beautiful firstborn. My oldest brother, chris, my dad just felt empty and aimless and he had never in god. He grew up in an unbelieving. He considered himself a atheist, in fact, and he had he was an undergraduate and for one reason or another. He found himself one day wandering a church in the Hudson ValleyGoodwill Church and there at goodwill. My heard the gospel for the first time, and he gave his life to jesus and. It sparked this rag call transformation. People who knew him . My mother and they just they didnt recognize him anymore. He was waking up at like four in the morning and spending in prayer, reading his bible, filling legal pads with notes, sitting, meditating silently. My mother was not a christian at the time. None of my dads brothers, none of his family members were christians, and they all thought that hed lost mind. And then they really thought he had lost his mind when not long after that, he felt the lord calling him to enter the ministry, to leave his finance career and go to seminary, to preach and my mom became, a christian, but she still thought this whole thing was a little bit nutty. And my dad realized that it probably was little bit nutty, but he he felt, the lord anointing him and calling to do this. So for next couple of decades, my parents who had been living this pretty, you know, high flying life, my dad was in finance in new york. My mom worked for abc radio in new york. They were kind of movers and shakers they sold everything they owned and they spent the next couple of living on food stamps, working in Small Church Ministries around the country. And that that change of trajectory is really the story of my family and what brought me to a place i grew up rooted in the christian faith, specifically rooted in the evangelical. And my dad in so many ways was not only my my role model as a father but but but my spiritual role model, the guy who even though he taught me not to emulate him to only emulate jesus, you know, i did want to emulate him and for a long time. I considered my dad to be almost like the paragon of what a good christian was. And in many ways thats still true. But as i grew older and became began to feel a certain disillusionment with, the institution of the church, you know, my and i began to have some disagreements which. I think in many ways the generation final clash there is of an undercurrent of the book. How old were you . Were you born when your father made his conversion . You know, i wasnt even born yet. I was actually born nine years after my dad became a christian. Okay. And tell me a little bit, you know, you had these generational con here. You do mention in the book that, you know, you still do attend church. I think if i got this correctly, youre pursuing a seminary degree. You know, to talk very briefly about, you know, you you know, how you how you have continued to kind live a Christian Life despite maybe some disagreements youve had with your father and with the larger community. Yeah, thats right. So its interesting, professor, my faith has actually never been stronger than it is now, which is a pleasant surprise. And im really grateful the lord for that. But when set out to pursue this project, i was really worried about what, you know, invest igniting the church and exposing some this corruption and this drift would do to walk with jesus and its only made it stronger. You know, i will say that i think for for many christians, including myself, as of about or six years ago, theres idea that you cant possibly love jesus. You cant possibly serve god while simultaneously airing the dirty laundry of the church. But one needs to only look at, you know, the apostle paul, who in his letters his occasional to the early churches in the ancient world was doing just that. And he was and he was saying, listen, you know, we have a standard here. And we are we are held as as believers inside this church to highest level of accountability. In fact, i write in the book about how the new testament model really was a great and and forgiveness and understood banding towards the outside world towards those who did not believe in god because they know any better. But real strict accountability for those inside church because they did know god and they did know better. And in the modern american context, it feels like weve sort of flipped that on its head that we are just incredibly gracious and forgiving and understanding and almost enabling toward those inside church who are doing and saying things that are anti biblical in on like. But we are so to condemn and hostile and antagonistic toward the outside when we see that same thing. So my own faith journey has taken some unexpected turns in recent years as ive simultaneously become disillusioned with the institution of american christianity, and yet simultaneously drawn closer in my relationship christ so that a journey that is very much possible but i think in many ways one that seems counterintuitive or almost contradictory to to some believers. Yeah. As i listen to you talk, tim, im im thinking about the book. Okay. I theres a lot, theres almost like a mini sub. John of books right now that are emerging on, you know, x evangelicals or former christians or christians who are disillusioned with evangelicalism telling their stories about how evangelicalism fractured the nation or destroyed my faith. These of things i dont get. Same impression from your. As i do when i when i read those other books. Is that fair . You know, im sure youre aware of some of this literature. I mean are you positioning yourself somewhere is, this book different or maybe youre trying to do the same. You know, professor, its its a fair question. I think what im trying to do is be faithful more than anything else. And i dont want to sound trite or cliche in saying that, but ultimately, you know both as a christian and as a journalist, i was taught to know, seek truth and. Ive tried to seek truth here. Ive tried to both you know, when you shine a light into darkness, which is really the job of a good journalist, you are both exposed using something that is wrong something that is false. But youre also illuminating something that is right and something that is true. And so as i go about this project, what im really trying to do in shining that light is to not just expose what is wrong, but to illuminate is right. C. S. Lewis wrote rather famously, that we know what a crooked line. We know that a line is crooked because we know what a Straight Line looks like. And i think for those of us who are followers, jesus, we know what the commands of jesus are and we understand how we are to conduct ourselves as his followers and how are to engage the world around. And when see the church straying that i think we have an and a responsibility lovingly but firmly to to call that out and to speak that truth. The power and thats all ive tried to here. And mind you that im as flawed and as imperfect as any of the people i write about in the book. And in fact, more so and im not infallible and i know that i have made my mistakes. Certainly even in the pages of this book. And i hope that nonetheless, god can use me as as a vehicle to help do exactly what what some of these other folks are trying to do in their own way. In these books youre describing, which is ultimately to turn our eyes back to jesus and away from some of these sort of ephemeral distractions of this world that have become idols to us. Yeah, lets great. Lets dig in now to some of the content of the kingdom power and the glory. I me, everyone is in here. I was i was joking with you before we went on before. We went on the air that, you know, ive been blogging this stuff for five, six, seven years. And every time i the page, there was another figure i was very, very with and have been watching closely. But a lot of the figures that you write about really emerge into sort of public life emerge american evangelicalism right around the time of donald trump. And then you have the summer of 2020 with black lives matter protests. George floyds killing of george floyd. You have covid virus, all of this stuff. The local church and i think only journalists can of get at the way in which these monumental changes in the culture whether it be the political culture or whatever have have shaped you know these local congregations its and again do a wonderful job of trying to explain this and interviewing the right people what are the one of the theres several ill call for lack of a better term ill call them human people who who threaded throughout this book, who show up again and again and again. That kind of in many ways drive your narrative youre always coming back to them. One of them was your fathers believe he was your fathers associate pastor or, his mentee, if you will. He pastors your dads old church. His name is chris winans. I hope im pronouncing his name right. Yes. How tell me his story. How does this of new pastor, a new senior, at least navigate of this change and . What does it tell us about even angelic ism in the last say six, seven, eight years . Well, im glad you asked because a fascinating story. And i think a universality to that is really instructive for a lot of and a lot of churches. So my dad had essentially built this church that i grew up in from. The time that it was a start up effectively and had pastored it and led it for about 25 years and. This is this is in brighton, michigan. Thats in the suburbs of detroit, where grew up in brighton, michigan. So my dad had been the pastor of this church for a quarter century and. Hed been looking for a successor for some time. Hed been looking for an area parent, someone who he could groom to eventually take over and my dad was really stressed out about it in the last years of leading the church. He was really that he might not find the right person. And then one day at a denominational meeting, he met this young associate pastor who happened be working at Goodwill Church up in the Hudson Valley, the very where my dad had been saved, all those years earlier. And in fact, the church where my dad had worked his first job out of seminary as, an associate pastor, i was born there my nursery was in the church manse library, sort of kind of a holy ground for my family. Thats what my parents always called this church in new york. So my dad met this young man and. He was just the perfect fit. He was the perfect candidate. Hes he hes young, hes brilliant. Hes humble. Hes got just an excuse is it command of scripture and just has a gentle heart and a servants heart. And my dad thinks. Oh, this is unbelievable. Wow. Now the lord is working here. So he brings this guy to michigan to, our church, to to to begin grooming him and so that he can take over. Theres just one problem with this young guy. This young pastor chris winans. Hes not a conservative of mega republican in fact, hes even like a little bit of lefty now. Hes not like a full blown progressive democrat or anything. But chris is who his entire as it relates to politics is through the lens of scripture. So he doesnt particularly like guns, he doesnt like violence, he doesnt like wars, he doesnt like bad language, he doesnt like adulterers. Hes hes hes kind of a strict, morally upright guy that would seem not to be a problem for some of your listeners who would say, well, yeah, church hes a pastor. Whats the issue . Well, in the context of a very conservative republican congregation in a very Republican Community like, the one i grew up in that puts bulls eye on your back. People can just tell if you dont speak the language if your cues are even a little bit off culturally, politically, they can pick that up. So this young guy, chris winans, comes and eventually my dad names him the successor. He takes over the church and things start to sideways pretty fast for him. Even just stray remarks that he makes off the cuff about Current Events or whats in the news. People are kind of coming after him for it now. My dad is still hanging around the time. Hes still like, you know, looming around the church and hes got chris chriss back and. Chris knows that well. As long as pastor alberta is here vouching for, im going to be fine. And then my dad dies and all at once, ive lost my father. And this young pastor, chris, has sort of lost a father figure in my dad who suddenly has handed over the keys to this big megachurch, to this young who is already viewed suspiciously by a lot of his congregants. And then shortly after my dad dies, boom, covid 19 hits. And in the democratic governor gretchen whitmer, she issued shutdown order that implicated of worship. And so pastors all across the state had a decision to make. Do you with the government and close your church for some period of time or do you defy the government and stay open. And for pastor chris and the elders at my home church, they thought that that was an easy decision make that that you know, there was uncertainty great angst at that a lot of older members in our congregation who were vulnerable and they said listen were going to take the safe route here and we will do, you know, virtual worship for a few weeks. And were going to close down the church. And then things really started to get bad for him because there were a lot of people at our church who were furious who thought that he was being a coward, who thought that they were sort of appeasing the regime, appeasing the deep state, appeasing the secular who wanted to shut down the and banish christianity from public life. And i think here, professor, i should just pause to emphasize how for evangelicals myself, who grew up steeped the subculture and marinating in this message for decades, that the left was coming for us, that day, that that the church would be in the crosshairs, and that the and the secularists would try to persecute and and eradicate christianity from american life. Covid19 to a lot of these people felt like the fulfillment of prophecy. It really did. And so winans, this young pastor, suddenly he finds himself just hanging on for dear life because first its covid19 and then its george floyd being murdered. And the and the racial protest thing and demonstrating and riots that are breaking out and the violence in cities. And then youve got Donald Trumps reelection campaign, the violence ensuing from that january 6th. And suddenly this young pastor is completely distraught. Hes seeing an exodus in, his home church with congregants flooding of the doors, saying that hes not sufficiently tough, that hes not willing to fight back against the left, not willing to fight back against joe biden. And black lives matter and the rest. And so this young pastor who just loves lord and wants to preach and wants help shepherd this flock, he finds himself basically to the point where hes wondering if he should just quit ministry altogether, walk away from the church. And it was sort of a tragic thing for me to witness. And he is losing members in his church. And your dads church to a another down the road pastored by a guy who basically turning pulpit into a crusade against vaccines and Critical Race Theory so forth and his is growing right rapidly his church is growing rapidly thats thats exactly right professor and again this is theres a universality to this i think a lot of people will this church down the road from my home church in my hometown i had never heard of it. It was it was a pretty roadside church. And i had never heard of the pastor. It just they were not really on my radar. And i did know most of the churches. In the area because of how id grown up and the networks that i in. And yes, this pastor decided that he going to use his church as sort of a staging ground to against gretchen to rebel against government orders during covid 19. And then really it several steps further started bringing in republican started bringing in a lot of fringe conservative activists and basically turned his pulpit into a soapbox turned his sunday morning worship into like an amateur fox news set they were spending, you know, 20, 30, 40 minutes on some sunday mornings just railing against the democratic party, railing against the media, railing against Anthony Fauci and and this church was exploding in membership in fact, the