Nothing that has happened since has changed that picture. And hes a very interesting character. Interesting isnt the right word. I did my best to undermine him. What did you do other than find john oneil . Probably called veterans organization. It was no black operation. I passed on information to reporters and others information that wasnt complimentary. Hes got this idea that i ran this big campaign. He said this in the 2004 electi election, he said the bush people are pulling all the stops out against me, now i have chuck dolson working against me. Bush had some long conversations with him. I wasnt involved in the campaign. Do not believe as a religious leader i should be involved in the campaign. Tell you what kind of a guy kerry is. This is interesting. May not be interesting. I went to the National Prayer breakfast in the early 90s. The speaker is never announced until the last moment. The speaker was announced john kerry. Kerry came in the mid 90s, and i was sitting two tables from the podium in the front of this huge hall at the Hilton Hotel Ballroom and kerry gave the most evangelistic message i think ive ever heard, it would outdo billy graham, it was absolutely magnificent. Back to my office, i was really convicted because he was a guy i had done everything to fight against and thought very badly of, whos now become a christian. So i wrote him a letter and i said dear senator kerry, you and i once were at odds with one another, i want you to know i heard your speech today and i was deeply moved and thrilled youve become a christian, i would like to come back and visit with you, and apologize personally for anything ive done to you in the past. This is a matter of natural instinct. I never got an answer back but i got a call from the reporter from the boston globe, is it true that you apologized to john kerry . All he said was i apologized. Hes never acknowledged the letter or me. All he did was tell people i apologized to him. I did, but i wanted to meet with him for prayer. That doesnt leave me with a good taste in my mouth for john kerry. When you read haldemans recollections of this era and your recollections, theres a tension. Haldeman recalls you as bringing out the darker side of the president , and you recall haldeman bringing out the darker side of the president. Help us understand what this means, the darker side of the president and what roles each of you played. Well, we had a lot of competition between us, and there were moments when i really liked bob haldeman, when he would relax and be himself. There were other times he could be utterly obnoxious. I remember one night i had only been in the white house six or eight months. The president had on a tie that was heavily figured. I went over to bob and said, dont let him wear that tie tonight it will look terrible on television. He was like, oh, youre an expert. He would put you down, cut you down. Most people had their runins, they had their moments when they were really treat ed not kindly by bob. He was at times tyrannical with people. There were many times i saw him take notes, agree with the president , when i would have disagreed and maybe did later, there were times when i thought he was simply being mechanical in reacting to the president. There were times when he did things i wouldnt have done. And there were other times when i brought up the dark side of nixon, he didnt have to work very hard to bring it out, it was always close to the surface. He was a gut fighter, a street fighter. His first reaction was to fight back. His first reaction was to get even with people. What he needed were people who would give him a more measured reaction. And we both did it the wrong way. We did it, okay, lets go get those guys. And in reflection now, if i regret anything about the nixon years, i regret a lot, but the thing i probably regret the most, i didnt take those occasions to try to help nixon moderate some of those views. Haldeman said they were given orders like i was giveth, but they didnt carry them out. Thats not been my experience. They did exactly what i did. We were on the sequoia one night and haldeman, nixon and i and were having drinks up on the deck and having dinner, and were talking about something that arthur burns had said. He had said something that would i guess he was not supporting the initiatives money supply and at dinner that night, nixon turned to me and he said, hes lobbying for a raise, isnt he . I said, i dont know. Nixon said, yes, hes told me once already he wants to get the same as the cabinet. He wanted to be bumped up, he wanted the Federal Reserve chairman to get a raise. Nixon said put that out to the press. You. Knew that burns didnt he wanted it to be effective . Yes. On saturday, i went in and said, thats not a good idea, we shouldnt do that. And he said, you have your orders, go do it. There was a case where i was being wise for once. And bob was saying, no, no, go for it. That happened more often i remember that one vividly, because it turned out to be a very bad thing. It was bad for nixon, bad for the country. What happened . The story was put out, it was false. It camt the one that had planted that story. You had some allies in the media, novak, robert novak and others, how did you youre one of those thats allowed to plan stories . Not very often. Very seldom. I had people who did that, but i only probably had novak in my office twice the whole time i was in the white house, and he would be the most friendly of the reporters jerry turhaus was an old friend, he was the one i gave information to about elsbrick. The result of my going to prison. There were reporters who desperately wanted to see me. Once in a while i saw one if i was told there was a really good reason to do that. I tried not to do that, i didnt think it would help me. I had john excelly working for me. And paul barker. I cannot think of his name he would deal with the press. Ken claussen. Claussen did a lot of that. In fact most of the stuff i planted i would plant through claussen. Did you ever meet bob woodward . No, not until years later. In the middle of watergate. In the middle of watergate . Ye. He was constantly after me, wanted to see me, i refused to see him, because i thought it was wiser not to. I was a nixon loyalist, and i felt it was better not to contribute to his efforts. I had him in my office one night, and this would have been in the summer of 74. And he began the conversation by saying, mr. Colson, i have found in the last several months of covering the stories that the people who wont talk to me have something to hide, the people who will talk to me must be on the level. I said, i made a mistake inviting you in, i dont want to talk to you. That was our one meeting. That was the only time i saw him. I did talk to him on the phone a few times. Always a mistake. Always a mistake . Always. My better judgment was not to talk to him, once in a while my worst judgment won out. About the desire for revenge, on the tape, so we have a record, after the breakin, the president would meet with you and he seems to be venting with you, haldeman said when the president vented with you, it was a sign of trust and he only chose a number of people to vent his anger with. He chose to do it with it, why . Well, i think there was trust. I felt very loyal to him and very close to him. Admired greatly. It was an emotional thing with me in some respects, both of my boys were approach iing draft a. I was against the all volunteer army, i felt committed to rich 5rd nixon. I do to this day, still respect him greatly. I think he knew that, and i think he felt he could let his hair down with me. Its a very deep anger . Yeah, he told me there was a dispute, and i guess its available on the tapes. And i remember he called me on sund sunday. He had you he wanted you to go and get the Washington Posts licenses overturned . Yes. Did he talk to you about using the irs against his enemies . Did he . Yeah. When was that . This was late summer of 7 2k. It never had anything to do with the irs, so i didnt do it. I remember the licenses, and i had talked to dean birch about that. Before i would return to the fcc. And there had been a big fight over those licenses in the past. They wouldnt. That wouldnt have gone uncontested. He did see walter annenberg. I dont know if that shows up on the tapes. About mounting some competition to the post and even taking over the washington star which later became the times. There westbound a few things i did when i left the white house, but most of the time well, lets see. That was after i left the white house. There wasnt anything we did during the campaign, because you would be too vulnerable. When did you get the sense that you were going to be the fall guy for watergate . Well, i worried about that right after the election. There had been four or five episodes that made me really suspicio suspicious. I was coming to haldemans office, there was a meeting going on, and i opened the door because nobody told me not to. I was going in to see bob. John mitchell was on the other side of the door, and he held the door and he said, what do you want . I said, i want to see bob. He said, well, were in a meeting, we just as soon you not come in right now. I said, is my friend howard hunt involved in this . He said, up to his ears. This was right after watergate, and i shook my head and but i wasnt welcome in that meeting. We came back from california on air force one, and the president this was in augu august i think were coming back from california. And i left air force one to go to my car to drive home and realized i had left something on the plane, i went back and the staff Conference Room where i had to walk in, haldeman and he were talking, it was just like boom, shut off the moment i walked in the door. It was very august watt, and i got in there as quickly as i could. It was obvious they didnt want me it could have been about anything. But it became clear to me that after the election, the morning after the election, nixon called his staff and everyone let them know what they wanted to do with the next term. I wrote a memoranda and told him i was going back to practice law, but there would be things i would stay to do. Chairman of the Republican National committee, i would love to do. Or the labor department. I think those were the things, theyre in the file somewhere. I was the first one of the senior staff to be invited up to camp david for dinner with the president. So i come in, and its just very cheerful evening, the wine is flowing, and the steaks are great. Nixons talking about the great future. He says, chuck, if you want to stay, there will be the right position for you, but i think youd be wonderful in the cabinet, maybe General Council of Republican National committee and you could be my outside adviser, help me from the outside so i was beginning to get a sense of things. Paul was sitting there nodding and so when we left that evening and went back to our lodge, i said, what does this mean . I said, does he want me to stay or not . Bob says, i think you should go. You can do better on the outside. So they poisoned him against you . Well, ive always thought so, you read more of the tapes than i have. Not everything is on the tapes, there are discussions that what i wanted to ask you, what have we missed . What discussions about watergate arent on the tapes . I dont know whether the stuff at camp david was on tape, was it . Not all of it. Some of it was one night i was up there, he was talking about, this is in december of 72, he was talking about kissinger having given his interview, and were talking just the two of us in a little sitting area off the living room, and all of a sudden he waives to me and we go into the hall leading into the bedrooms, he says, the next administration, kissingers gone, i dont want him around. And just vents. And we walk back in the room and resume the conversation. If i had any sense, i would have realized that place was bugged. You. Sent someone to paris to photograph a woman no, get a photograph published in a french newspaper. Ted kennedy dancing with maria pia who was in the the swinging society of paris. Someone sent us a clipping from europe. Nixon said to me, i want that picture. We really thought Teddy Kennedy would have been our opponent in 72, and he would have been a tough opponent, i think and we tried through the normal ways to do it. Just couldnt turn up on the news services, contacted the people in paris and couldnt get an answer. I call a guy in new york by the name of mulcahey pat ohara. I said, would you go to paris and get me that picture . He did. He came back and delivered it to the white house, i walked into the white house. I said, i got something i think youd like to see. I dropped the picture on his desk. He picks it up and swings around with his feet under the table behind his desk and laughs uproar yously. That should have been a clue, he didnt want to laugh into the microphone. But it wasnt, i was naive. But we got the picture. Never used it, but it was good insurance if we thought we were going to run against him. That would have appeared in the newspapers at some point . Yes. Nixon by the way called Henry Kissinger in that same meeting and said, henry, come look at this. And henry looked at it and laughed and henry loved that stuff. Well, nixon was probably a little jealous that henry could be photographed with starlets around the world . Yes. We had those conversations too. I read that some of these vindictive or desires for revenge came out when the president was drinking . Umhum . Was it that he couldnt hold his liquor . Again, the complicated per n personality. I dont want to say he couldnt hold his liquor, there were times when i thought nixon came close to going too far with his wine at dinner, and sometimes his scorch. He could pretty well control it, he could have a drink or two before dinner and always a bottle of wine, vintage wine, very good wine that he would save for himself and the other people at the table would be left with the drinks. I thought he went too far. There was never a time when i was with him was he not in complete control of his faculties. He was never dangerous. There were two or three phone calls, i suspect have been listened to when i thought he was over the edge. April 30th when he fired haldeman. He sure sounded it. One night he called me. I was up sitting with my dad, he was sick and he had just come back from russia. My dad had had a heart attack, i was in massachusetts, i get a call from the president at 2 00 in the morning. And he is incoherent. I couldnt make head nor tail out of what he was saying. He would Say Something and then slur off. I went to a neighbors house, and i said, i have to make a phone call and dont ask any questions. Its 2 00 in the morning. But i need to get a telephone, so i could get disconnected from nixon and call the white house switchboard. I called the switchboard. I said somethings happened to the president. Hes on the phone but i think hes passed out. He called me back 20 minutes later and said hes fine hes asleep. The president called me and said he was on heavy doses of sleeping pills, the jet lag got to him, and it may well be. There were times he would equal me in the middle of the night, i hope im not bothering you, is it all right to talk . He would sleep two hours and then wake up and do some work, and he would call me. He did not sound like he had been drinking, but he wasnt as clear witted as he normally was. The times he would get up in the night, he couldnt sleep, and so i recognized the phone call was just handling. These are the times when you would not do what he asked you to . Oh, yeah. You said there were a hundred things he asked you to do that you didnt . Yes. There were times i knew couldnt and shouldnt. Lets youre a complicated person, how did you know or didnt know . If i sensed it was one of those middle of the night deals where he was just ranting, i would let him rant and listen and agree with him. He wanted me to fire all the people at bureau of labor statistics one night, he called me. I called George Shultz i said he wants to fire the head of the bureau of labor statistics. Schultz said dont do anything until i come back. He flew back and spoke directly with the president. There were many times when i did not do what he said and got the person involved who should do it. There were a lot of things he would ask you to do you knew you couldnt do. You say he didnt know how to unwined . I remember one time after i guess it was after the teamsters endorsed nixon, which i arranged in 72. I went up there to be there for the teamster meeting i was there when they made the decision to endorse him. That next morning he was exuberant. And he says, lets go for a ride, and wed go outside into the golf cart, which he then drives. I was never more nervous in my life, hes driving up and down the roads and hes not a good driving and hes not paying any attention, were in a golf cart. But it was his way of celebrating. It was as far as i saw nixon go to take the time out to celebrate something. Another time in san clemente i was there for zinner, we go into the upstairs library that looks out over the pacific. He said, this is where we talked about went through the entire conversation with bresnov. I found it kind of interesting, i suppose but i could have engaged in more stimulating conversation, than to relive a negotiation that took place in this room. But nixon was so totally focused, i dont think he knew how to wind down. Which is why you would get those middle of the night calls which is why he was so intense about everything he did. He didnt know how to cool it. Recount for us the episode after George Wallace had been shot. We were absolutely panicked that bremmer would have turned out to have been an ailing lie of some right wing group or somehow some crazy involve with us. I figured any connection with us, the president would be impeached on the spot. He called me in his office. This will be on the tapes, i suppose jokingly said, well, you should have finished the job. He said, this is bad if any of our people have anything to do with this, it would be great if it came from the left. So he said, what can we find out about it . I sat down at the table in the executive office and called mark felt at the fbi and said, mark, tell me what you can this is probably 5 30 at night, its been three hours since the shooting. They had his apartment cordoned off. Theyre following a series of phone conversations with mark, in which the president was sitting pantomime telling me what to say. Whispering loudly, im sure mark must have heard it, and relaying all these instructions. Find out if theres any literature inside . Is there any political literature inside . I said, well, call me back when you find out anything. Meanwhile, the president said to me, how about this was howard hundred the. How about your friend the cia guy . Could we get him to go out there and see whats going on . Maybe plan the some literature . I said ill call him. I went back to