And most importantly, i would like to thank dr. Cheney for coming here and sharing your views on the president and mrs. Madison. Thank you. [applause] ok. We will revisit a couple of issues we discussed, but lets jump right into your writing style. Tell us a little bit about how you pick your topics and how you approached the research process. Well, during the writing of i was entranced with the ,otion, as gabe pointed out that for the first 36 years of the republic, the virginians were in charge for 32. And i was interested, not only in how this came about, a good story but in the interaction between them, the personal interaction. I wont give away too much, but there are surprises there. Oh, and how i write. Teacher of freshman english for quite a while, getting my phd. Torture these poor freshman. I made them take note cards. Every note card had to have a separate id on it. And then, you organized a note card, and you wrote. Well, i dont do any of that. I feel so bad for all those freshman i misled for all those years. [laughter]. Start writing i research while i write. Its not the most efficient i dontpossible, but know what i want to say until it right. I look at what ive written, it helps me more what to know what i wanted to say then and what i want to say next. Its not a very orderly process. As my assistant nicole will tell their books everywhere. You should see my office. [laughter] things about James Madison is that the young man took copious notes during the Constitutional Convention. Most historians, we know much about the constitution, courtesy of medicine. So among all of the founders, he is one that is easy to study in terms of, theres just a volume of information there. These poured through documents of this young man sitting with a frontrow seat to history, did you feel like you got to know him better . I remember feeling like i was sitting there in philadelphia. Well, its compelling. I was fascinated with his ailment. And, how it was regarded at the time and how he overcame it. Its hard not to be fascinated with dolly. Think of it, i mean madison was the most reserved of the founders. He married the most flamboyant woman. They truly enjoyed one another. Theres one story that sticks in mind. Thats of dolly the most bizarre. Acrossnd james running the t8 kiosk in front of montpelier they would run the other way and sometimes dolly would carry him on her back. [laughter] madison,eat, little darling little jimmy. One of the founders once wrote the quote was they could defeat madison if only it wasnt for dolly. She was quite a flyer cracker. There was a senator who worked on home to his wife, senator mitchell, in the lead up to the election of 1808, who pointed out what a great advantage madison had over george clinton, because dolly was entertaining every night. Was there anything about their marriage its truly the odd couple when you look at it in every single way. Had as theyey alluded to marriage. Anything about the marriage that was particularly inspiring or interesting . The way it started. In the beginning it was a marriage of convenience on dollys part. He fell head over heels. I think she saw in him someone who would be a good support for her son, someone that would provide that baseline level of sanity we all need in life. She wrote a letter to her sister on the day of her marriage and said, something of the order of, i was married today alaska last. [laughter] but she would not have written that five years later, three years later read it did become a love story. There was a strain in their relationship, her son. Could you talk about pain turned out to be true to his namesake. Payne todd. Someone said he was the serpent in the garden. Just grew up as a completely responsible young man area madison was forever bailing him out of debt, out of prison. They tried everything. They sent him to europe a man who was a very orderly and disciplined man, hoping that payne todd would learn better. He never did. Toward the end of madisons life and after he died, payne todd pilfered things in montpelier and sold them to support his various bad habit. Its the reason why someone tells you, i have a letter of James Madison, to take them seriously. The letters, most of them have been gathered beautifully, but some are still out there. I have a friend of the Eastern Shore of maryland to said to me, i have two letters of James Madisons. I looked and by gosh, they are James Madison area so yes, payne put them into debt. Its interesting that all of the virginian founders died either in poverty or not very welloff. Sawcines that was in large but madison tried to care for him, tried his best to people patients, provided finances for him because of his great love for dolly, but it wasnt meant to be. Abouturprised you most madison and dolly in your research . Was at the number of ailments madison had . Yearsably, he spent five you spend five years to 83rd primary documents. We have a view of medicine but simplistic and monolithic. He was an infinitely more complicated person. What surprised you as you are going through. His dedication, hard work the fight wrote for religious freedom. Do month alone said he couldnt adhesion to this cause, fidelity to this cause. ,or madison, its easy to train beginning with the prosecution of the baptists in virginia. And as they say, madison politician. He didnt hesitate to use the loyalty of that just in virginia when it came to be time for an election. Munroran against them was running around saying, madison needed to be replaced. He was the old school munro was the new school. Madison started writing letters to the baptist. As they should have they who bezed he was the one best for office. One of the most important relationships to the founding, you just alluded to it madisons relationship with jefferson. It was a complex relationship, political. Piggybacking on your comments about madisons political skills when jefferson needed something done in congress, he went to madison. When jefferson was in europe, he rote to madison its remarkable. Its one of the Great Stories of a history of the early republic of all American History. Met whenent madison went to work in virginia. He was very young, maybe 22. Then jefferson became governor. From that time, his wonderful friendship developed. They also lived in the same boarding house, as i mention the connection with kitty. Theirn just imagine conversations in that boarding house. I think each of them was probably the brightest person that the other had ever known or whatever no. Each of them loved books. They bought books even when they couldnt afford them. They had this fascination with knowledge. Think of it. Not only are they really bright, but they are well schooled. This mound of knowledge and converse. They were both reserved. But very different otherwise. But jefferson had soaring intellect, you can see it in his magical prose that raises you up. Madison was much more matter of fact. They balanced each other. Now if you were to give credit to who most deserves the appreciation for this friendship it would go to madison. Jefferson was a difficult friend. At one point, when madison is busy at work getting the constitution ratified no easy thing jefferson, disappointed , upset that there was no bill of rights on the constitution, started writing letters to people. Behind madisons back. He would say, heres what we should do, dont ratify the constitution. Let more states withhold ratification until there is a bill of rights on it. This was a fine thing, but madison is in the war, the conflict to get the constitution ratified. Itre was no way to amend until it had been ratified. It had been hard enough to get to the Constitutional Convention where you had all of these people fighting over so many subjects, but if you started letting different states put different amendments on the constitution, youre just going to end up in a mess. Everyone would have different suggestions for what it should be. Jefferson didnt understand this. He was writing letters to maryland, virginia, opposing the ratification. Madison never said a word. But, he did send jefferson a copy of the federalist. With madison it was madisons patients that let that happen. Adams residency, the time of the sedition act, this made it a crime to criticize the government. Of the sedition act, madison and jefferson decided that the best way to combat this was to turn to the states. They were up something called the virginia and kentucky resolution. Madison wrote virginia, jefferson wrote kentucky. Was far more forward leaning then madison. Jefferson said, a state had the right to nullify the federal law. You can all see this leading up to the civil war. Idea. As jeffersons he even suggested the idea of secession. Along the way, areas people held jefferson back, including madison, for making such a bold and damaging statement. But jefferson kept going. , a more moderate, thoughtful state made more thoughtful statements to the virginia assembly, jefferson got a hold of this and changed it. He made it more amenable to his way of thinking. Madison found out, got it changed back. Word, but not a crappy one to jefferson. He just pointed out to him that these words like nullification and secession were not going to be very helpful if you want to get a whole bunch of states to come together and oppose the sedition act. So i think that madisons patients accounted for a great deal. I couldnt agree more of the two, madison was the better politician. I know is a couple of uva grandson here. Ith all due respect madison is a virginian as well. I would to school in virginia as well. But madison is a far better politician. On the idea of the bill of was charles pinckney, who initially said, we should promote such rights against the quartering of soldiers, they talked about liberties of the press. We were not ready at the time. Jefferson almost unraveled everything. Madison comes to the rescue. Madison is initially opposed to coming up with a list for the bill of rights. He thought it would undermined it. Madison comes on board. Not only calling the father of the constitution, perhaps of the bill of rights. Could you talk about his leadership role in putting together what would be known as the bill of rights question mark he just knew the importance in talking to everyone. And making his case convincingly. Worriedoint out, he was that if you listed a bill of rights, 10 amendments, about the youts of peoples, x and y, imply that they didnt have rights to do anything else. Right. You are pushing every other right beside. His genius is the way he phrased the bill of rights. Thee, you know it government shall not abridge the right to free speech, to free allegiance to religion. Think about that. The government shall not abridge. That left the implication that there were a whole a lot of other things that the government shouldnt do as well. Pick his wordsto carefully. You can see the political skill coming out in the fight that ensued that jefferson rolls madison is willing to work across the aisle so to speak. Probably no better example than the federalist papers, which you alluded to. While jefferson and hamilton both seemed incapable of speaking to know what one another, it is madison who works with hamilton on the federalist papers. Could you talk about his great contribution, in terms of the federalist papers and helping to get this ratified your point was well taken earlier, how he literally travels to visit the congress. He sits down with people. Even though he doesnt have the charisma that of someone in washington has of washington, he knew the value of working to get the support. Key and hamilton did cooperate on the federalist papers in an amazing way. Writing at breakneck speed it seems impossible, i think to most people today. They made the case for the constitution for new yorkers madison understood the importance of what they had written and had copies. This was before was up to virginia to ratify the constitution. Surefter a while, im not madison was any less partisan than jefferson. And hamilton Josh Jefferson and hamilton became grateful. Im so sorry to tell you this. They even became great foes of washingtons. Sided with hamilton on almost everything. Hamiltons idea was a strong central government. People like madison and jefferson used to call him a narc is, someone who wanted a kingly government that could tell people what to do, keep the whole thing together. So that was the fight. Jefferson and madison did not want that. They wanted more power to the states. So that was the fight. In the course of that fight, the First Political parties were created. A great group as well. One of madisons high points some of them and some of his low points all occurred at the same time, the war of 1812. As you alluded briefly to. I wonder if you could expand on that. Madison was initially opposed. A couple talks came in on the 1810 election replace it the clays, calhouns, pushed him in that direction. Admit, it wasld incredible. Could you talk about the war president , madison . Its interesting. Administration, there was a half or with friends. President s in those days, whether they were military men are not, thought that they should dress up, put on a sword, at thick okd on it, which is ribbon that is made to look like a flower. Adams did that, madison did that. I find that odd. There are many things that you look back that you find on. His greatest contribution i think as a wartime president , was not prosecuting people who wildly disagreed with him. Theythe new englanders even threatened to secede. Calm,s leadership, his keep calm and carry on he did that. In land battles when they were going south. Elated at the great naval battles of the war of 1812. Am so glad you mentioned that. Work, used in my own writings, we properly and brightly if a lot of credit to lincoln for his magnanimity. He didnt want to see change. We give a lot of credit to George Washington for his magnanimity, not being more aggressive with people opposing his command. I always put madison up there with them in terms of new england was close to defeating fishermen were outraged, running factions. Medicine let everyone down home win. His handling of that helped this country come together at the end the freedomhree of early shoot religion issue think ofy both pushed, different our society would be if they let it go the other way, if we let it go unchallenged that the government cant from speaking against the ground. Washington, people who supported him, supported this idea that the government was the government. And it does no wrong. ,f you criticize the government youre are trying to divide the people from the government you are guilty of sedition. Washington supported the Adams Administration doing this. As martin marty said about freedom of religion, the idea to criticize the government, was like a hinge between the ages. Much so, not so much. Medicine would be a wartime secretary of state and president with the pirate conflicts. That remains the contentious issue. Could you talk about he would be going to war again, overseeing this interesting affair. Madison was very confident in himself. I think jefferson described it best. He just had confident. He was not only willing to go to war, he encouraged congress to declare war in 1812. Madison also had this gift of leadership. He knew how to change his mind. As a friend of ours said to me you dont keep total consistent with consistency throughout your life when these situation changes. You change. The bestmost example of that, is madison in the constitution. When he left the Constitutional Convention, he was very disappointed. He did not think they had done all he should. But he sort of sat and thought about it, and decided that the others theres Nothing Better then worked on the ratification. He thought when hamilton proposed a National Bank, that was the worst thing he ever heard of. But then he supported a National Bank during his own administration. Think gordon would wrote in his book, revolutionary characters one of the checkers was called, is there a madison problem . Mehink he would agree with that, no. Change of mind when the circumstances change. Thats what madison did. One of madisons greatest contributions occurred when he was secretary of state. Its something that jefferson gets all the credit for. He deserves credit madison was one of the negotiators. Thats the louisiana purchase. Everybody is familiar with it from the jeffersonian perspective. But it was madison who was secretary of state who played a role in this. Could you talk about him as secretary of state, his negotiations with this event . Of madison, example the founder of the constitution changing his mind a little bit. The offer toade let us have vast territory at a good price, jefferson started worrying this was not cost to show. There was nothing in the constitution that said the government has the right to acquire territory, by land. Some madison took him aside and said, its ok. [laughter] if he hadnt been there, i dont know if we wouldve purchased it or not. While we are talking about these virginians, toss a bit about your next book on the virginia dynasty, why you selected the topic. We will buy it when it comes out, but just a little hidden of your direction, focus on this book. Im interested in the facts were not for men sitting around the table, agreeing amicably on issues. Y thought fought like like cats and dogs. Newspapers were part of the battle. You can find things in the newspapers of the day there is bad is what you find in our newspapers today and political rhetoric that we use today. It was such a remarkable time. The bank of how different it was, and how many ways it is the same. You owe them a great deal. Why this extraordinary collection of talent in virginia . Is that something you will be looking at . Many great historians have done this. I follow in their footsteps gladly i stand on the shoulder of giants. But it is interesting. All four of the virginia founders were born for a 60 mile radius. Education plays a part for some of them, more for madison and jefferson them for washington and monroe. So thats part of it. They also jefferson particular nurtured upcoming talent. They mentored and brought people along. Jefferson brought munro along. That they were together so much i think thats wisdom , these clash of ideas long discussions about the constitution and laws. Jefferson and madison were fascinated with explorers, by explorers. Booklist,k at their they were delighted to learn about the first guide to go into people who sailed around the world. Thats a purely enlightenment thing. They had this whole environment. Thats in which it was thought important to explore ideas, as well as countries. Theres one last thing. I havent quite gotten this together yet. One of your lectures was a gordon would talked