Manifest. And it was called soap operas because Soap Companies sponsored the shows. So thats how the soap opera title came about. Yeah. Durham, he also wrote for the chicago defender. Thats an interesting story, particularly his firing and how they had i dont know if they were the first also, when you talked about the black Insurance Company that couldnt get it couldnt get funding to there was a show that he did, and the script basically was about this Insurance Company in, i believe it was in philadelphia. Im not sure. But the bottom line was, when this gentleman went to get money to refinance the building this was during the depression they assessed the building that this Insurance Company was in. And this was one of the Major Insurance Companies for africanamericans at the time. And he thought he could get maybe a 50,000 loan to tide him over through the depression. And they assessed the building for like 5,000. 5,000. And it was like okay, never mind. Ill figure out something else. What he did was, he went to the community and really, really sold the product. Went back ten years later, or maybe it was five years later and they were surprised that he was still in business. And his durham script basically said that well, thats because all americans, whether theyre black or white are Good Investments if you invest in them. And that just because a company is black doesnt mean that you, you know, you dont assess them properly. So. Yeah. Certainly in this book and looking at Richard Durhams life, we found out that radio is certainly political. But journalism is political within itself. And he gosh. You know, it just, hes an artist first and then hes a journalist. And he wasnt going to compromise his principles, which meant that he didnt always have an economic means, because journalism wasnt necessarily is steady job because it was more like sort of working on contract almost. And in the midst of all of the things were talking about, he did get married to a really wonderful woman that we, you know, we get a chance to meet in these pages. And his family as well. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the economics of radio and journalism, you know, using Richard Durhams life as sort of a linchpin. Well, let me just kind of piggyback on the fact that he got married. He married cla reese davis durham, a chicagoan. Another woman whose family migrated to the north, to chicago from, in her case, from chattanooga, tennessee. Anyway, they meet in 1941 and hes, you know, just enthused. Shes this petite, pretty little thing. But she also is political and interested in the same kinds of things that hes interested in. And they get married in 1942. She had designs on becoming a teacher. And eventually goes back to school and does that. But she becomes really kind of, in their early marriage, part of their marriage, the stable breadwinner. Hes working but hes almost always getting paid script by script. Hes not hired full time in radio. When he gets to the chicago defender he finally finds a place where he can say, oh, okay now im going to get a regular paycheck. But the economics of black journ journalism or black newspapers or even newspapers in general, they were not paid whelp they were paid and paid on a regular basis, but there was always this whole idea that we should be making a little bit more in order to make a living. And thats kind of how he got into trouble at the defender. He was an excellent writer. And i need to say that over and over again. It gets into whats happening today, is that writers can be, if not political, they can tell the truth and go after the truth and do that to the best of their ability. But what happens is that, you know, sometimes you may anger some folks, either the readers or the publisher or whatever. So he is covers f covering stories about world war ii america and how word war ii america is affecting the black population in particular. So hes looking at discrimination, segregation in the military and writing about that. Hes looking at disparities in housing and economics. The whole idea of restrictive covenants and you know, kind of making sure that black americans stay in one place, in one section of the city, several sections of the city and not move out so that they can expand like anyone else in chicago or elsewhere. But also, he is starting to organize or work with people who are organizing within the chicago defender. There was a union called the American Newspaper Guild, and it was a union designed to represent workers in newspapers across america. And he along with others are, you know, lobbying or lobbied for the ability for the chicago defender to be part of that union so they can increase their wages and have ek wall pay and better working conditions. As a result of that he got fired. But he was another person, if he had a conviction, he would have followed that throughout despite whatever the consequences would be. And if he believed in something, he would work on it and fight for it and if it meant losing a job or whatever, that he would, he would deal with it. I hope this isnt a spoiler wu they hire him back. Hes so good with story telling. Hes a fabulous story teller. And he ends up writing these really beautiful expo says and they always get published on the front page. And one of the really interesting ones because he gets people to talk to him even when what theyre saying is not necessarily politically collect or you dont necessarily want to have this on the front page of the newspaper. And he interviewed this woman i dont remember who she said but she says all these things about black people, yeah, i remember one black american lived in my town. Remember that story . Yes. In 1944 hes covering the president ial election. It was about to be an election for the president. Roosevelt was running for an unprecedented fourth term. And so, you know, hes interviewing these folks and decides hes going to do a story about thomas dewey who was the gof of new york. And he was running as a republican against president roosevelt. So he goes to interview dyeys mother in her hometown, a small town, in wisconsin in michigan. And there was this whole thing that michigan or that particular town, like some other towns in the north had this rule that if you were black, once the sun went down, you could not be in the town. You had to leave. You had to be gone. So he goes in and interviews deweys mother and she says no, no, weve never had that. We welcome negros or africanamericans. And in fact there was one family that lived in the city. But what happened was he got into trouble before that article, not because of that. But near the end mrs. Dewey, governor deweys mort made some antisemantic statements and he printed what she said. And of course once that was printed in new york, the Jewish Community had a fit saying what is going on here. And mrs. Dewey denied that she actually said it. And he said, no, no, no, you did. So they went back and forth. But that brought him a little bit of notoriety. And it was really interesting that, you know, he wrote poetry, he wrote this great literal nonfiction. He got all of these awards for his i think he got the paper got awards for his front page news. And i think no, he actually got a front it was the American Newspaper Guild gave him a front page award. Right. Right. But he was one of the first, i think the defender or the first person to get recognition from a president. I think it was truman. Because what happened was he wrote for the defender and then he had a radio show called democracy usa. Thats too close. Do you think she took it . I dont know about that. Anyway. Could you talk a little bit about democracy usa . In 15 minutes he had to tell this whole story. It was just fantastic. The stories he told in democracy usa. The chicago defender decided they wanted to explore some other ways to market the paper. They figured radio is popular. Lets try to sponsor a radio program, a radio show that would come on once a week and would feature men and women, who through their accomplishments, really kind of epitomized the principles of democracy. So you had this range of folks that he focused on. And he was not the sole script writer. There was another writer. But they did this. And this show is the show that won all of these awards. And really did help to get the defenders name out there. The defender and other africanamerican newspaper at that time. That was the highest readership period. People really did read. The readership really went up and the circulation went up during that time because they wanted to know what was happening throughout america. But also with the military and, you know, jim crowe discrimination. You talk a little bit in the book about sort of the structure of the black newsroom. You know, we have the editor, and you mentioned the editor that sort of mentored a young durham. And when he and the editor of the defender at that time, i think hes haitian. He was the editor in chief. His name was max lashad. Right. Even today you probably find veteran newsmen and women who have worked in various fields whether theyre in print or broadcast. But they mentor the Younger Generation of reporters who are coming in and, you know, trying to make their way. And max lashard was highly educated. Got his ph. D. In paris. And he was the editor in chief of the chicago defender. But he mentored everyone who came in. And he recognized that durham was an excellent story teller. But he was slow. They didnt want him to do breaking stories and they put him on the feature this. And he became really a topnotch Investigative Reporter so he could take longer to develop the stories and go out and then write it. Yeah. Well we mentioned a little bit about some of the writers that were part of the illinois writers project. But it seems like the Writers Community was really tight and it was so interesting that im trying to remember. Ga wind lynn brooks they for a brief time went to high school school. But in terms of the writers in the writers group, durham, when he was part of the illinois writers project, he was in this really kind of warm and inviting and nourishing community over writers that included nelson algren, who was his supervisor. Who else. Katherine dunham. Even Richard Wright, although by the time durham joined the writers project, Richard Wright had moved to new york. So he wasnt there. But he influenced everyone. And durham said that wright was one of his mentors in terms of really checking out his writing. Right. And then going back to the newspaper, it was really interesting the way, the way the assignments went. Lacy hughes wrote for the chicago defender and he had the just be simple column. And occur ram would tease him about simple. And he had a real following. It was real interesting the way it worked. It was almost like the journalists were sort of issue driven and they have a niche as opposed to one person sort of having an idea of the way it should work. And i was wondering as a person in the profession how do you compare, like, black press today to black press then . And i know you were going to mention, you know, our star reporter woman, ida b. Wells. I wanted to give you an opportunity to wribring her int the story. She was a pioneer in the newspaper business and advocate of freedom and justice against lynching. She was a prolific writer. I wanted to play a clip or two from durham destination fre come where the character that plays her talks about what her mission and goal was. I think it is an excellent example of what some many reporters in the black press early on and maybe today think about their goal and mission. My mission was to resist tear any wherever i found it. And with this in mind, i took my savings one afternoon over to john fleming, the editor of the small memphis newspaper. He wanted to sell further in stock. Well i dont like the idea of doing newspaper business with a woman. No good will come of it. Youre superstitious. Perhaps. But ive got a notion that you intend to put into practice a good many of the principles that men around here only preach and if you do there will be trouble ill try and be ready for it. What are you printing . Id like to print the true story of memphis and tell the truth about segregation and the Education System here. Well, maybe you can get out the title of our newspaper, free speech. I can see with you on the staff well live up to every word of it, too. I tell you, when i play this for my students, theyre like, oh, that organ, thats oldti oldtimey. That comes from an episode about ida b. Wells that came from durhams destination freedom series. This next clip really tells the kinds of stories that ida b. Followed and really kind of championed. Theres a negro gross on beale street telling us reports hes forced to live in a negro neighborhood. Just an ordinary story, ida. I went into the store of the small groes tore buy bread and to find why he was not wanted in business. You wants my story, maam . Im from the free speech. Youve been writing to us. What is it . It wont do no good now. Trouble done started. What trouble . Trouble over whos to profit off the business here in the colored neighborhood. Try to tell the police about it, but theyre not on my side. Something is coming. What . Lynching. Ill stay until my last drop of blood was gone if anybody would stand with me. Ill stand where you. Youre a woman. What man will stand with you. You got a little small paper. Would be a lost voice in the wilderness. Sometimes one clear voice is worth 100 cloudy ones. Stick to your store, ill stick to my newspaper and every day i told the story of the growing pressure against him to abandon his business and how presumption was used against him like a weapon. The storm rose and i was in the center of it. I found trouble but i had found the truth and the circulation was rising faster than any of the local papers in the city. So i think that gives you a sense of, not only his philosophy but his poetic sense and the way he put these words in these characters mouths. The other thing is when you talk about ida b. Wells paper, the free speech, came out in 1980s, 1989. 50 years later durham is working for the black press. Hes in memphis. His first story was to go back to memphis and talk about the conditions there. And one of the conditions that he covered and tried to get the power broker, edward crump to talk about what was the poll tax and the voting restrictions. Now 15 years later were still talking about voting issues. So you can see that yes, theres been progress but there is also this kind of reoccurring continuing need to fight. And i think that one of the things that i found in doing the research about durham is that his philosophy, the thing that he told his reporters when he was an editor, the thing that he did as a writer himself was that you had to use your words as a weapon. But you also had to do it over and over again. Because you couldnt write about an issue once. You had to write about it several different times and in several different ways. And for durham it was not only just about writing several different ways say for print. But it was using all forms of media, whether it was television, because he did write for television, whether it was for print, whether it was for roller orally for radio. I think it speak to whats happening now with the black lives matter movement. Is that yes, were talking about black lives matter. He talked about it in his stories. But its also that, you know, you need to organize and to use that organization to deal with getting messages out in different formats. So social media, i think he would have been all over that. He would have found all kinds of creative way to deal with social media and use that as a way to say, black lives matter. Because and he said this several times in several different interviews and i include it in the book. That basically the story of africanamericans is the story that is recognizable to people around the world. Because many people are oppress oppressed, many people are undereducated or underemployed or have no access or limited access to Proper Health care. So if you look at our story here in this country and then you extrapolate to the world, youre going to find that people will be interested in our stories because it resonates with, you know oppressed masses. Yeah. Yeah, certainly, you know, the themes that his various stories and whether that was in print or radio certainly resonate. They are timeless themes. But he did it so artistically. He did. Its just so beautiful. I mean these stories. Particularly destination freedom because hes sort of looking at people of african dissent, americans who have done great things, you know, the doctors, you know, the freedom fighters, the actors and actresses. And even just regular folks that believe in justice. Exactly. Very nice. Youve almost covered all of my questions. Oh. I was wondering if you could talk about because he was he editor or just one of the writers for mohammed speaks . He was the editor. What year was that and when did that happen . Then segue into the mohammad ali friendship and the book that he wrote. Richard durham became the editor in 1962. Were talking about the early 60s. It was interesting because his brother and sister who were interviewed said they were like, why would you want to go work for the nation of islam, not because it was bad but because he wasnt religious. He did not convert to islam. But he saw it as a way of extending the reach. And reaching people in another fashion. The thing about Elijah Mohammad and the nation of islam is it was about getting information out to people so hopefully they would come into the nation but also to educate them. He also knew this is Elijah Mohammad, that because he wanted to reach masses of people, you had to have people who nknew ho to do that, people who could write, who would report, who knew what they were doing. And if you didnt have that kind of population or those kinds of people within the nation at that point, then you go to the folks who did it. Richard durham was one. His folks approached durham and another man named savage who eventually became a congressman in illinois for about 12 years. And he asked them if they would consider editing mohammed speaks. And they both kind of considered it. Durham decided to do it. And then he moved in and started hiring staff. So the thing that was pretty unique about it is that like, say, the Christian Science monitor on newspaper, durham decided im sure with okay from Elijah Mohammad that there w