And then, issued a press release saying it created 40 jobs at delta. Thats just false. Mr. Anderson, let me start. Let me start by saying, someone who lives 60 miles north of he was, i love Delta Airlines. The pilots and the airline the flight attendants, you the a great job so dont hold anything i say against me today as we fly in the future. I was born at night but not last night. I didnt support reauthorization last time of xm bank because i felt that the reforms that needed to be made were not made. But today, listening to the testimony from all three of you and the doctor is gone, reforming xm bank with reforms, i think you all would support reauthorization, correct . We are forms. With reforms. With reforms. As we have been talking and i have a whole package of reforms here and weve been working on for the last six weeks, two months. 1,000 jobs in the eighth Congressional District of tennessee, my district, are support by the investment of xm bank. This is not about ive heard some people today talk about ten Big Companies or whatever. This is not about leadership in our party. I think as republicans were all trying to get to the same place of having a government thats more accountable and more transparent and more responsible with taxpayer dollars. This is about, for me, the jobs in my district. And its going to be hard for me to go back home, mr. Anderson and captain and mr. Wilburn. And my constituents say, congressman, have you balanced the budget and im going to say well were working on it. And theyre going to say congressman, did you get rid of fannie and freddie and im going to say, well, were working on it, and we are with the patback. Well, congressman, the only thing that youve done is youve got rid of an investment that was creating 1,000 jobs in our district. And now im on unemployment. I dont have a job. I have a paper right here. U. S. Economy straing at steep 2. 9 rate at quarter one. The Commerce Department says First Quarter contraction was more severe than the decline it estimates a month ago. Another major factor was a bigger trade deficit than initially estimated. Again, if we dont reform xm bank, then we got some real problems. And as a lot has been said today about the way that xm bank is being operated, i think its mr. Hockberg, if they wont respond to the changes that were trying to make, maybe xm bank needs to be we need to clean house there . But, please, lets dont overreact. Lets try to fix this investment. Lets make it better. Lets get back to the original mission of xm bank. And dont hurt jobs in our districts. Im going to have arrest hard time going back home to my district and telling my people, my folks, the only thing ive done is kill jobs far my district. And so lets try to work this out. I think we can. Again, ive got a whole list of reforms ill be glad to talk to anybody about. Appreciate mr. Campbell and the work hes done. Appreciate all you gentleman and well reform this and make it better. With that i yield back. Chair recognizes gentleman from maryland, mr. Delaney. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I thank the witnesses for joining us here today. Mr. Wilburn, captain, thank you and mr. Anderson, i thank you in particular for joining us and bringing so many of your colleagues. Delta is an important and iconic company. I think you all should be congratulated for the great work youve done positioning this airline as such a successful business. And the fact all your colleagues joined you here today is a reflection of the good culture of the airline and your good leadership. So i want to make it clear that i think what youre doing is terrific. And my question is actually more of a factual question and perhaps like me colleagues i dont know the answer to my question before im asking it. But i was struck by this page when you put it up. And i wases very concerned by it because as i think many of my colleagues know i care deeply about three markets and believe that Market Pricing should dictate all of kind of government financing. And when i saw this i was very concerned about this. It said that the governments making a lot of 3. 4 and the same loan in the market would be made at 6. 1 . Thats a very big subsidy. But as someone whos used to reading foot notes i read if footnote and it said that the private market example is something called doricnimrod air finance alpha. Thats a special Purpose Entity based in ireland that owned 58 airplanes. And leases those 58 airlines to about a dozen carriers including the emirates. And the risk of ownership and benefit of ownerships are not fully transferred to the he lessee so when i saw this and recalling my days in the credit business this strikes me as a worse credit because i would much rather lend directly to emirates and have their fum faith and credit saying theyll pay back every penny h any of the loan on a fixed amortization versus the specialPurpose Entity that has certain limited recourse. I may be wrong about this because, im just reading the footnotes and i did some searching on my little google device here but my question is, a. , is that accurate . And b. , do you think, is the ceo of tell ta if you were to borrow directly from a bank and i recognize you didnt have to borrow to buy your planes which is great. If you put the full faith and credit of Delta Airlines on the line as well as a lien on the aircraft you purchase wouldnt you expect to borrow at a lower rate than to set up an unrelated company that purchases the airlines and signs a lease to you with certain limited recourse, and then you were to get a loan for that specialPurpose Entity . So im trying to figure out what the apples to apples price is. What we were to do here is to make it apples to apples, okay. And if you go down through the footnotes, obviously, the coupon these were both Public Market financings. The one on the beft had an xm Bank Guarantee attached. Us see the collateral. The coupon is beyond question. Thats obvious. The coupon was obvious. The loantovalue ratio with the xm, you get a higher loantovalue ratio because you dont need as much equity. And what youve approximated here is that this is the emirates credit. But isnt it true that its actually not the emirates credit . No, but it is the emirates credit based on what moody said. I read the moodys Credit Report on my device here. And it talked about how the lessor had risk of the value of the asset at the end of the term. And that it wasnt fully recoursed to the emirates. That it wasnt fully recoursed to the emirates. No, this is an apples to apples. They are both issued at the same time. And both of them were public financings. And one of to them, they decided they were going to lease so i think that the market base financing was a leasedbase financing on this. But at the end of the lease term the lessor takes back the airplane, if the lessee doesnt like it. You leased a plane and you had it ten years if you didnt want the plane you give it back. If someone had the loan on the plane that loan is not your obligation. But airlines we lease we tend to want to own, right, because you get the residual value. But part of what the market is reflecting here is that they are going to return theyve decided that they want the option to be able to return the airplane in 5. 7 years because thats the average life of the lease. A quick yes. Do you think you should pay less for the direct delta credit in the market than you do for a lease . Well, yes. I think depends on the airplane. Thats probably what theyre doing here. They probably want to own the triple 7s but probably only want to lease the 56789380s and this is what a lease looks for at the emirates at their credit. Time is expired. The chair recognizes the gentlemen from south carolina. Mr. Mull vainy. I believe mr. Hecht, i wish he was still here, who challenged us not to believe false statements regardless of the number of times they are repeated and i think thats always good advice. I would think its similarly good advice to not believe statements that you cant prove and one of the things that i think he said and i dont want to put words in his pout was that Export Import Bank created 255,000 jobs last year. If i got it not exactly right i apologize, but that was the general extent of things. Nobody can that number. Nobody can prove that number and i want to explore that a little bit. I want to explore the weaknesses in these job numbers. Mr. Fincher is talking about 1,000 jobs in his direct. Mr. Anderson you mentioned in your testimony that the export import financing in the aviation sector has cost yall 7500 jobs. Xm says its boeingrelated activities created 51,000 swrobswrobjobs. Who am i supposed to belief sne. Me. Why . Well, in the instance of delta and the example that we used with airindia, that actually happened. We went through a reduction in force. Fortunately we were able to get enough employees to take voluntary early retirement but when we pulled all that flying out of india, we had a very successful business flying to mumbai and we bought, by the way, 777s and finessed to them ours ost to be able to do that service so i know those jobs are there. I think you make a correct intellectual point on both sides of the debate. Honestly. In that it is very difficult to put a precise number for you or any of us here. So i guess what i relied back on is i see what goes on in the marketplace. Got one going on right now in jfk to milan, italy, with Emirates Airlines which has financed airplanes from xm bank and they dumped theyve increased their capacity in milan jfk 65 . Thats going to have an impact on jobs in the u. S. Over time and theyre deeply subsidized which probably really gets to the deeper point of trade subsidies. You make the right intellectual point. These are estimates. They are estimates by everyone. And theyre a best judgment. I will tell you the airindia numbers are right and i was involved in pulling it down and having to do the reductions. If you do scratch a little bit deeper at the Export Import Bank numbers and youll see that they use formulas with information from and we could talk about the foreign components. Boeing advertises 30 of a 787 is made overseas and its unclear how many of those 255,000 jobs, mr. Hecht, are actually jobs overseas. When the gao asked the Export Import Bank about that in the may report they said xn kpishls had not assessed the extent to which this limitation affects the overall jobs estimate. Supported versus created. Supported and created are not the same thing. Just because a job is supported doesnt mean its going away if the Export Import Bank financing goes away at the same time. Its important to recognize one thing as we deal with these things. We use these numbers when we talk about swrobs. The only reason the Export Import Bank counts jobs is because of us. Thats it. Thats the only reason they count jobs so they can come in here and try to justify their kp existence. It says, export import officials told us they use the results of its jobs calculations for reporting purposes only according to xm officials xm calculates the number of jobs supported reviewed by the board of records at the request of one of its Board Members. Xm Board Members say the purpose of reporting these numbers is to give congress a sense of the implement affects of xm activities. They do not use them for decisionmaking. The only reason theyre giving you the 255,000 number is because they want to, jobs, is because they want to continue to exist. And at some point we have to decide, which numbers are real and which numbers are fake. I would suggest to friends on mine on both sides of the aisle if between a Government Agency and a bureaucracy trying to make an argument forgetting more money and continuing until it exists, and a private Sector Company that is simply saying leave us alone so that we can compete it is the ladder that is the more reliable number and the 255 is not a real number. The 7500 jobs that delta lost are real. Time to the gentleman is expired. The chair recognizes the gentleman from washington. Thank with you, mr. Chairman. And to clarify the record. Its 205,000 jobs for 2013. I believe its 255 in 2012. As reported by the industry, actually, to the Export Import Bank, mr. Anderson, i want to ask you a question that i suspect i mo the answer to. Would you favor continuation of this Small Business administration . I dont know anything about the Small Business administration. Im a large business. I could certainly learn about it. I just dont know. Ive never done any studies or had anything to do with the mall business. I dont really know what it does. I asked because i thought i knew the answer, which i did. I thought you would have said yes. I can say yes if you want me to. Well, its nice to know what kind of thought you give to your testimony here today, sir. Im totally if you think im happy to support it. I didnt come here to testify about Small Business administration. Admittedly. I wanted to make the analogous point that the they function as the export import credit. The sba enjoys an enormous amount of public support and is kind of a given and i wanted to give color to your earlier remarks that it was a reformed xm Going Forward you were seeking not elimination of it and that was my only motivation. I want to make the point that those of you who are aggressively seeking reforms which may or may not enable to continued existence of xm in any kind of a meaningful way are playing with fire. Youre playing with fire. I want to go back to how i ended up my brief time, that the gentlelady from wisconsin gave. We could wake up in 20 years. And still have a duopoly. I dont think america would be better off for that. I think america would be worse off. It is the broader point i seek to make, however, which is the importance of Aerospace Production which is one of the important beneficiaries of the domestic Industrial Base of this great nation. We dont want to lose it. Weve lost really key components of our Industrial Base over the last several decades. Most of us have lived to regret it. But the difference is. This is not one we can reconstitute very easily. In fact its not unrelated to this nations security. The hundreds of thousands of people that put together those great airplanes and frankly, those National Security products are a part of keeping this nation safe. And, again, i think we are playing with fire. If we think that we can do away with the Export Import Bank and not have that critical part of our Industrial Base decline i think we were playing with fire if we think we can be as aggressive about certain kindtion of reforms that would have that kind of effect and not acknowledge it. I was delighted to hear my friend, mr. Campbell indicate and he had come up with a bill and i respect him a great deal. This institution is going to miss him and frankly im going to miss him and this kwcommitte is going to miss him and i thought it was an act of considerable integrity with the accepted responsibility for the development of that which he presented today having been on that side. He knows i talked to him on the floor months ago and asked our side be a party to those conversations. But we are where we are and mr. Campbell has taken the constructive step to put a bill on the floor which a bill on the table which none of us have had the opportunity to reach so we know not what its impacts will be. Here would be my point about that in granting him credit for that work, which i know was hard. The exact number is 97. 98 days from now, the doors of the Export Import Bank will shutter and america will be worse off for it. In the alternative is, we have a hearing on an actual bill that mr. Campbell has developed and begin the give and take about what the path forward might be. Because, in fact, we only have 97 days and i dont want to wake up in 20 or 30 years should i have the great blessing to still be around and look back and rue that we were the ones that allowed another enormous degradation of our nations domestic Industrial Base as we have in so many other sectors. This nation cannot afford it. Our quality of life cannot afford it. Our standard of life cannot afford it and the health of our economy cannot afford it. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Time to the if he gentlemen is expired and the chair recognizes the gentlemen from kentucky. Mr. Barr. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thanks to the witnesses for your patience and for youre persistent testimony here today. First, for mr. Wilburn, i appreciate that youre a Small Business owner and youre an entrepreneur, you mention that you were, quote, a free market guy, unquote. Are there other means that you could identify a making your company more competitive in the global marketplace besides reauthorization of the xm bank . For example, lowering the highest Corporate Tax rate in the developed world. Ending the war on Domestic Energy production to make sure that we have an affordable and reliable supply of Industrial Energy costs. Repealing obama care. For example, promoting free trade lessening the Regulatory Burden on u. S. Companies which is estimated to cost the American Economy 1. 8 trillion annually. Do you see some of these policies which produce impairments to our competitiveness as equally or even more important than reauthorization of the xm bank to your bottom line. Speaking of my bottom line, i think all of these things that you mention need to be considered in the argument that they are goin