And restore it and keep it seamless. Okay. Well thank you. I only have half a minute remaining. Miss gilligan i think i will just submit a question on the record for you about the Contract Tower Program and stress that the senate and house continue to strongly support the faa Contract Tower Program on a bipartisan basis and request you to comment on the record about any recommendations faa may have for reauthorization bill to ensure that this program is enhanced and protected. Thank you. Thank you, senator. I think certainly after our hearing last week, its important. I look forward to the answer to senator wickers question. Thank you. And now id like to call on senator klobuchar. Thank you very much, madam chair. A lot of interest in the hearing p. M. Im pre hearing. Im pretending those are lines of people trying to get in you just heard. I want to welcome members of the families. Weve worked with you especially on the bill on pilot fatigue and captain sullenberger, i thought i would start with that. I want to thank you for your continued intention to improving the fatigue standards, and can you share your perspective on why we should not continue to have two levels of safety regulations for passenger and cargo planes . Thank you senator. Id be glad to address that. Just as much as the 2010 Airline Safety bill was rega regulatory success, the cargo carve out the exclusion of cargo pilots is as much a regulatory failure and its one thats hard to understand. Its one thats clearly the result of economic pressures and not a safety argument. We have learned in the last decades much about the science of fatigue. We know how predictable it is, as predictable as the sunrise and the sunset obviously, and it results in predictable negative effects on human awareness attention, shortterm memory performance, and judgment. Its ironic in the extreme that the pilots who are doing the flying that require the most protection from fatigue are the ones who are specifically excluded from the rule. Every night, all night and much of the day, cargo pilots share the same air space the same airports with commercial passenger flights. They fly all over the whole country, over each of our houses at 2 00 a. M. 3 00 a. M. , 4 00 a. M. 5 00 a. M. Looking for the airport. We owe it to every american to right this wrong. Thank you so much captain and miss gilligan is there any thought with the faa with changing this. I know that basically that wasnt the case when you looked at this, but is there any case of reconsidering this after the decision was made to exempt cargo pilots before . Senator we actually think there are other way that is they are expecting the Cargo Carriers to address the risk thats posed by fatigue. The bill itself required that all carriers including Cargo Carriers have a fatigue Risk Management plan that required that the carrier look specifically at their schedules and using the current science that we have for fatigue determine if any elements of their schedule provided the possibility that the pilots would be fatigued, and they are required through that plan to address that risk. In addition, we now have the requirement for Safety Management systems which is also applicable to the Cargo Carriers. That broader system will require that they identify whatever risks they have, in this case the risk of fatigue. Because Cargo Operations are very different from passenger operations and the scheduling is very different, we believe that the Safety ManagementSystems Approach will actually assure a better level of safety for the Cargo Carriers. They will analyze their schedules. If any of those fall into the red, they will have to address that risk. Thank you. And, again, well continue to pursue this with you. Mr. Baker, i know you touch on this in your opening statement, and i just wanted to let you know you know senator mckowski and i did the bill on the Small Airline revitalization act and im as frustrated as you are that we dont have the faa meeting the timeline to get the rules out. We think theres safety benefits so i want you to know were continuing to pursue that. I just actually had one last question that i just sort of came up with after being on a flight recently next to someone who was a little bigger than me, and i know that theres been some issues with some of the planes having smaller spaces. I guess id ask you, miss Gill Gilligan gilligan, about this and we have rules for pets and we have no rules for space for humans and over the past decade seat pitch has decreased from 34 to 28 inches, as you know. When the faa is testing the safety of new aircraft, is the faa also testing for a variety of seat sizes particularly if it impacts the ability to evacuate an aircraft and is the faa or the department of transportation taking any action to examine any potential risks from limited seat sizes on commercial aircraft . We have done research on both seat size and seat pitch. We do it based around whats called cueing queueing theory. We set the standards to assure the most even flow of passengers out of the aircraft in the event of an emergency. Any of the aircraft that are approved do meet those standards. And so has there been any renewed look at this given that it appears theres some smaller seat sizes that were starting to see lately . Im not aware that the seat sizes are smaller. Whatever is installed does meet the standards that are required to provide the appropriate level of safety for emergency evacuation and all of those and including i guess they have changed in the last decade from 34 to 28 inches. But each new design must be tested to assure that emergency evacuation can be accomplished. All right. Thank you. Senator moran. Chairwoman thank you very much. Miss gilligan, the faas 2004 sport pilot rule allows private pilots to fly small aircraft without a thirdclass medical certificate under certain safety restrictions. The issue i want to explore is altitude. Is there a clearly defined safety benefit for one altitude over another . I think the theory is that pilots maybe can fly lower than the 18,000 feet thats the floor for class a air space. What should we know about safety based upon ability to fly at various altitude levels . Well, senator, i think there are a couple of elements to that, and im sure mr. Baker can expand upon it as well. The one you point out is that the structure within the air space tends to separate aircraft based on the sort of technical a abilityies of the aircraft. Lower air space is not as con conducive to jet operations. Higher altitudes allow them to be more efficient. So there are some elements of the air space design that suggests separation of operations by altitude my question is can we make safety considerations different at lower altitudes because larger commercial aircraft are flies at higher altitudes . Well, of course, all of the commercial aircraft pass through those lower altitudes at least for departure and arrival, but there are some differences that we do apply within those Different Air spaces depending on exactly what the operations are that are in that environment. Is that helpful . Its helpful. I guess what i was trying to find out is what difference does it make whether the threshold is 14,000 feet or 18,000 feet or 10,000 feet on the safety considerations for private pilots . One of the safety considerations is related to 10,000 feet and below because at those altitudes the aircraft does not need to be pressurized and so you dont add the added risk that you would lose pressurization and the pilot would become would lose consciousness. Thats separate from the air space issue that you raised initially. So there are some lmentszelements of the air space design that address safety risks and there are some elements related to altitude that assure the pilot a little more protection from what might be a safety risk. Thank you very much. Mr. Black anything youd like for me to know about this topic . I think to be more clear, i think the idea that you need supplemental oxygen above 12,500 for any length of time and supplemental oxygen can be canals into your nose. Above 18,000 feet youre required to have a pressure mask on. You can still fly up to 27,000 or 30,000 feet with supplemental oxygen but its a different type of mask so i dont see any safety issues as long as youre doing supplemental oxygen as any safety issue. Thank you. Let me turn to let me come back to you mr. Black. Were hearing about Pilot Shortage. What is it that aopa and others, what can pilot schools what are we doing to when i was a kid in high school we had Civil Air Patrol and all of us kids got interested in Civil Air Patrol. I know it still exists, but what is it that can be done for another generation to address some of the issue that is get excited about flying and can address some of the issues about Pilot Shortage and compensation. How do we make this a career path for additional americans . Its a great question, and were testing a couple programs now called the you can fly program which will be 150, 152 cessnas thats what most people learned to fly in. Weve got a number of those in states right now were trying to get people actively involved joining a flying club. But even working with a number of high schools we have a program we call s. T. E. M. A. It gets people involved in education at career decision or if its recreation thats fine as well. We want to get involved with the High School Training programs. And then remind people they can afford to fly with these flying clubs that makes flying very affordable if they just want to do it for recreation. We look at ourselves as a role to try to reenergize general aviation. Your organization or others are interested, wed love wichita, kansas, other places in kansas to be a part of that process. If i can help encourage s. T. E. M. A and encourage people to have an interest in becoming pilots professionally or as a hobby a sport for personal enjoyment, please include me if theres any way i can be of assistance. May i quickly add. My first officer jeff skiles and i for four years immediately after our famous flight were cochair of the eaa Young Eagles Program which is a Worldwide Program to encourage youth to be enthusiastic about flying and in fact, to get them a first flight with a volunteer pilot. To connect the dream with the reality. So thats something were very familiar with and eaa young eagles is a big program that encourages thousands to do just that. Captain, great to know that and youd have the standing, the stature that would excite young people today and i appreciate your interest and involvement in that program. My time is expired. I would only say in concluding, miss black, that the issue of reliability of air service by Regional Companies in my kat of kansas and i assume across the country, its a serious challenge. Its hard to make decisions about flying a regional jet. I have been a champion of essential air Service Since i came to congress. It was a commitment i made to many communities in my state and we go out and fight here in congress for the Financial Support of essential air service, but if we have a regional carrier that fails to provide the reliability, the Reliable Service people are having a difficult time deciding whether to buy a ticket on some scheduled Regional Airlines with the uncertainty of whether or not that flight is actually going to take off, and the explanation is often that theres a Pilot Shortage, but it sure makes it difficult for us to continue to advocate for Regional Service and essential air server without that essential reliability. I think when we restore some certainty to the pipeline and we can get a little bit more stability on the pilot supply, a lot of those issues will self resolve. Frankly, we have one major eas carrier that originally served 64 communities and is now serving 32. Thats just one example of the victims of the Pilot Shortage in those communities. And thats something that were seeing. Its not just the eas carriers, but all of our carriers. Every day carriers are canceling revenue flights. We know that impacts the reliability. Im very close to the eas program and a shared ed aadvocate. We think thats really important. We know the ability to use the service, the ability to know its going to take off when you want it to for businesses especially is essential, and so i think that this is critical. This is a very critical issue for essential air service. Another issue we have is with some of the pilot supply issues with carriers being unable to even bid on those routes, you get more and more carriers that are bidding under the alternate eas program and so here you have carriers who arent even required to meet the atp regulations that are filling this contract flying because the other carriers that were filling the flying before cant fill the flying anymore. Thank you. Thanks, chairman. Senator manchin. Thank you, madam chairman and thank all of you for being here. To all the Family Members and those flight 3407, thank you for not wavering in at all in trying to help us make the sky safer. Thank you for being here. On the pilots bill of rights, weve been working on that for quite some time and, you know one of the fundamental problems we tried to fix was the appeals process. I would ask you since you have beenwing this so hard, are the pilots today getting a fair and unbiased review of the faa decision in u. S. District court . If i understand the question correctly, the process of appeals through the ntsb i think it was clear that a number of years ago it was quite a bit worse and has improved pretty steadily. While im still concerned and not a lawyer, there are still some people hung up in the system and there should be some time of circuit breaker, if you will, in how we get approach those kinds of legal issues. While its improved much, i think theres room for more improvement. Being a pilot myself i have 3,000 hours and my hours were accumulated, captain over 40some years, so i would ask as far as from the safety standpoint the time the 1500 hours i dont think i have to agree with you, going backwards would not be a way for us to respectfully miss black, i just disagree with the direction youre going on this from a safety standpoint. I know the decisions i have had to make over the many years. Im asking does simulator time zmount do they count simulator time toward 1500 hours . No. None at all . I think theres some credit for university experience, classroom experience. The 1500 you accumulate when youre a copilot flying second seat, does that accumulate . Is it all pilot in command . If i could try to help, senator, and well get you the actual breakdown. But it is there are some circumstances where taking the second seat can be counted as this flight time. It depends on how the aircraft is designed and certified. If its certified for a twoman crew, that time does count. If its certified for a single pilot only even though they may have a second pilot that time is it 1500 hours in the type theyre flying or just 1500 hours flying you must have 1500 hours of flight time before you can apply for the Airline Transport pilot. I could apply with the hours i have. Correct. I dont think you want me in the left seat right now flying you also need a type rating now. Yeah, a type rating, okay. The other thing is is there any time period. A period of time 1500 hours within what period of time . No, sir. So again neither the statute or the rule limit that. I have 3,000 hours. If i go back and get type rating i could the 1500 hours qualifies you to take the Airline Transport pilot test along with some additional specific training in High Altitude and Weather Operations you must demonstrate you had as well. And then you must pass through those tests, and then if you were to be hired by the airline, you then receive training on the aircraft type and receive your type rating. I understand all that. To both of you two, and captain, i will go to you first. I know youre saying theres no Pilot Shortage. Theres people coming into the system. Well call it into the queue. Basically, they could be doing that, and youre saying that the regionals are not paying the price to basically get those quality people in there. And i think miss black is saying completely different because shes not getting the pilots she needs and she has to lower the criteria for them to get the pilots. Am i correct in what i heard from both of you . No, if i could real quick and then well have the captain. There are, senator, 110,000 pilots in this country with Airline Transport pilot certificate. There are another 65000 who could quickly get it. Really the issue and it has been for several years that there are some companies that just arent good places to work, and the word has gotten out, and the first officer on the culligan air flight was making 16,400 a year. Based in newark could not afford an apartment, even to share one. She was commuting from her parents home in seattle on Poverty Level wages. Probably qualified for food stamps. Thats the reality of that life. Even more disturbing than that is they put her on a flight where she had known icing conditions flying in Winter Weather and not prepared. I cant its unfathomable for me to think that its the extent that any regional would put her in that situation. She even knew she wasnt qualified. She obviously didnt feel comfortable with that. Thats tough to the extent theres a problem, its been self inflicted by the industry for paying low wages and having bad working conditions for so many years theres a perception if you want to have a successful career, you might look else