House. And sunday on in depth, our conversation with documentary film maker and writer jon ronson whos written many books including so youve been publicly shame, the men who stare at goats, and the psychopath test a journey through the madness industry. Well be taking your phone calls, email Facebook Comments and tweets. Get the complete schedule at cspan. Org. Sunday night on cspans q a, Washington PostNational Security reporter Walter Pinkus on the situation in the middle east and his opinion on the 2003 invasion of iraq. I think one of the things about the Bush Administration and paul wolfowitz, who never claimed to be an expert on the middle east or on iraq, and proved it, and historys proved it is that we look at things from our own point of view and get deceived by it. You can go back to vietnam is a great example of the first time we sort of did it openly, but we have a history of trying to think other people are like us or want our standards, and the world is different. And particularly in the middle east its a totally different culture. Sunday night at 8 00 eastern and pacific on cspans q a. Next a discussion on the humanitarian consequences of the conflict in libya. A panel looks at the refugee crisis stemming from the ongoing civil war and how this is impacting the plight of internally displaced persons and the economies and security of libyas neighbors. Speakers include a representative with the office of the u. N. High commissioner for refugees and a minister with the tunisian embassy. This forum took place at the Brookings Institution in washington, d. C. My name is beth farris. Um a senior fellow on Foreign Policy here and codirector of the brookings lsc project on internal displacement. For the past 22 years weve been working and doing research on internal displacement in a variety of contexts. I think this is the first time weve ever organized an event focusing specifically on libya. And certainly this research that was carried out and our concern with the issue predates the current attention being paid to lybia in the context of the migration crisis in europe although we will be focusing on that as well. We have a good panel for you today. Were going to begin with Megan Bradley sitting at my far left. Megan teaches Development Studies and Political Science at Mcgill University in montreal. Shes done a lot of work on Transitional Justice displacement, reconciliation, and a variety of contexts. But from our perspective shes almost coming home. She worked with us for a couple of years as a fellow in the project on internal displacement. We still miss you a lot megan and its really nice to see you here with us. Thank you. So megans going to talk about some of the research we carried out in collaboration with colleagues based in doha. And then were going to turn to the charge daffaires from the embassy of tunisia, whos a career diplomat, has worked in a variety of settings throughout the middle east, most recently london, tokyo before coming to london in 2012. The circumstances in tunisia and libya are something to be considered. Well then turn to Shelly Pitterman whos the representative in washington, d. C. Of the United Nations high commissioner for refugees, has worked with unhcr for many years in very different settings from headquarters to the middle east and now in washington where he also focuses on some of the issues in the caribbean. But unhcr has been have visible in the past week or two with respect to whats happening in the mediterranean off the coast of libya. And i hope shelly, you can put this into the broader perspective. We often see that internal displacement within a country has consequences far beyond the borders of those countries. I think well be seeing that as we hear our panelists discuss today. Each of them will talk for a short amount of time and then well open it up for questions. And i hope you are busily thinking about your questions, and well look forward to hearing from you. Well begin with megan. Megan, welcome. And tell us about your research. Thank you so much. Its always nice to come home. Especially when the weather here is much better than it is in montreal however cold a spring it might have been here. Im particularly happy to have the chance to share with you today some of the results of a recent study on the displacement crisis within libya and across the libyan borders particularly into tunisia. This is a forthcoming report that ive been working on with two colleagues in ibrahim sharkiya whos with brookings doha center. And a tunisian researcher and journalist. Huda and ibrahim took the lead on the field work in tunisia and libya that informed this study. So id like to start out by acknowledging their key contributions to the project. The report is focused not just on the flow of migrants and Asylum Seekers across the mediterranean. Rather, its focused in particular on the displacement crises that have been affecting libyan citizens themselves. Although these are clearly interrelated dynamics and im looking forward to speaking about those in the q a session. Just to start with the numbers and an overview of some displacement dynamics that we look at in the report. The libyan population as im sure you know is 6. 2 million. So a small country. After the fall of the gadhafi regime some 550,000 libyans were uprooted within the borders of libya itself and in addition an estimated 660,000 libyans sought shelter in neighboring countries, particularly tunisia and egypt. This is clearly a sizable proportion of the population of a relatively small country. The majority of idps who were uprooted in the context of the violence that accompanied the revolution were for the most part able to draw on their own resources to return to their homes relatively promptly after the violence concluded. There was, however, a Smaller Group of about 50,000 people who have ended up in a situation of socalled pro travthed dis edprotracted displacement. So these are individuals who still today have not been able to return to their homes. The greatest proportion of this population is a group of about 40,000 people from the town of misrata. Perhaps some of you have followed the details of this case. But this is a situation in which the residents of this town who belong to a particular ethnic group were accused of loyalty to gadhafi and involvement in a series of war crimes that were committed against the residents of the city of misrata. In retaliation misratan militias attacked the town virtually destroyed it and arbitrarily displaced the entire population. The u. N. Commissioners inquiry has referred to this situation as a war crime in and of itself and as a crime against humanity. So the majority of these idps who are relatively cohesive and vocal group are living in idp camps, principally in tripoli and benghazi. With the upsurge of violence that weve seen since the summer of 2014, theres been in addition to this core group of protracted idps a whole new wave of people whove been forced from their homes. So the best estimates that we have is there are some 400,000 libyans who are now uprooted within the country. Its important to stress, though, that because the majority of International Actors pulled out of libya in the summer of 2014 there have been really no regular updated assessments of the size and characteristics of this population. So 400,000 is very much a rough estimate. What we do know for sure is that many of those who are currently uprooted in libya have been subject to multiple displacements. So theyve been forced from the communities in which theyve sought shelter and still unable to return to their homes. And its also clear that the almost complete lack of International Assistance for idps in libya at the moment has pushed many of these people into situations of deep impoverishment and extreme vulnerability to the ongoing violence. In terms of those who sought shelter outside of libya we also saw relatively prompt return movements after the conclusion of the revolution in 2011. However, we do see and i think mr. Draggi will speak to this, we did see a significant proportion of the population remain in exile primarily in tunisia. Many of these individuals are assumed to have some degree of affiliation with or loyalty to the gadhafi regime. And this has made them unable to return to the country because of fears associated with retaliatory violence. So in thinking about this population, its important to stress that the vast majority of these people have never been actively involved in any kind of violence or abuses associated with the gadhafi regime. Instead this is more a case of guilt by association. People being labeled as loyalists by virtue of family associations or having that label applied to them in the context of local power struggles. So its a very complicated case but its important to recognize that this is not a group that is uniformly in any way responsible for violence or human rights violations. So in addition to this group which has stayed in exile for a longer period of time there has been again a major surge of movement into tunisia and also into egypt since the summer of 2014. We dont have good numbers on this population. In the summer the foreign minister of tunisia suggested that there are as many as 1. 5 million libyans in tunisia. A Smaller Group are understood to have more or less established residency in tunisia. But again, its very difficult to assess the scope of the population because libyans dont actually require a visa to enter tunisia. So tunisia has very generously kept their borders open throughout the duration of the crisis. So what we have is a situation of people using their own resources to travel into tunisia. And they have not for the most part actually registered as refugees. Although a sizable proportion of the population would presumably qualify for refugee status. So in effect tunisia has really become a major host state in the region. Although strikingly they receive very Little International support. Which is something that i hope we will discuss further. So if we think about the libyan crisis in relation to the displacement thats taking place across the middle east to north africa at the moment, its striking how little attention the situation has received, particularly when were thinking about the displacement of libyans themselves and not just the issue of migrants and Asylum Seekers trying to escape to europe from libyan shores. I think that this lack of attention to the libyan situation is significantly due to the fact that libya is a relatively wellresourced country and theres an assumption that libyans have their own resources to draw on in order to respond to their needs for housing, food et cetera. This has meant that until now theres been relatively low costs of the displacement crisis for european states and also for the u. S. But what i want to stress is that in the longer term this reliance on the displaced persons own resources is just not tenable. What we saw in our research and interviews with affected populations is that yes, some people are receiving for example, regular pension payments, from the government despite the ongoing chaos, which is quite but many dont. So theyre eating type their own resources, approaching situations of increasing impoverishment, and in addition to this many of the idps and exiles have protection concerns that money alone cant resolve. So this means that the kind of neglect that the situation has received is not i think something that can continue into the future. What we saw in our research is that many libyans in tunisia are effectively trying to live under the radar. Sought the tunisian government has been remarkably generous in terms of keeping its borders open and enabling this kind of informal protection that libyans have accessed to date. The government has pledged not to return libyans while the violence is ongoing and has enabled libyan children, for example, to go to school. Some are able to Access Medical care as well. But what we see in countries around the world is this kind of hospitality does come at a cost when were talking about displacement situations that are expected to be protracted and thats certainly the case here. So for example we see rents significantly increasing in many tunisian cities, which is leading to tensions between tunisians and the libyan exiles. Many of the exiles we interviewed for this study reported that they live basically in perpetual fear of a policy change that would see them be forcibly returned to libya where they fear for their lives. I think this suggests that theres a need to consider how the International Community including unhcr can better support tunisia to develop its policies and capacities as a host state and to provide secure and reliable protection to those within their borders. Just to conclude, in terms of responding to and ultimately looking toward the resolution of this displacement situation, i think its important to recognize the obvious. And this is that its just impossible to talk about aiding idps and resolving a crisis in a sustainable manner without looking at the broader question of conflict resolution and peace building in libya. So increased security is obviously the essential precondition of stopping displacement and to resolving the predicament of those whod been forced from their homes within libya and across borders. What we saw in our research is from the perspective of many uprooted libyans return is their preferred solution to displacement and this is presumably also the preference of the many states and International Organizations who are involved. What we see in other cases though, is that as displacement becomes more protracted peoples preferences and plans can change. And so as the situation continues, it will be important to continue to have open dialogue with the displaced about their preferences and to make sure that their opinions are closely taken into account. While returns arent presently possible, i want to just close by highlighting three quick points that will need to be kept in mind moving forward and looking toward an eventual resolution of the situation. First its absolutely imperative, it goes without saying, that returns must be voluntary and take place within conditions of safety and dignity as is required under international law. The flip side of this is that while returns cant be forced they also cant be banned. Its also important to think about how to overcome, for example, the obstacles that have prevented the people of tuerga from returning to their homes. Second, we need to think about the relationship between Transitional Justice, reconciliation, and the ongoing displacement situation in libya. Transitional justice processes in libya have been effectively suspended with violence but there are i think many lessons to be learned from the past failures of the processes that were initiated in 2011. So for example, the political isolation law that was instituted in libya was problematic particularly because of its highly punitive nature. This is an opportunity to try to take stock of some of those shortcomings and ideally have a clearer sense of the way to move forward in future. And last, its essential to think about how immediate support can be delivered toichlt dps and also to exiles in which that eventually lay groundwork for Durable Solutions. Even though return is not an immediate possibility there are ways in which the populations can be assisted now, in ways that will help people come out from the shadows and not experience a situation of entrenched marginalization, which is the risk that many people particularly exiles, face at the moment. So this entails, for example ensuring that libyan children take up the opportunity thats been presented to them to go to school. Many are still not enrolled in schools. This is just one small step that i think is an important part of making sure that this population is not locked into a situation of protracted displacement in the longer term. So thank you very much. Thank you megan. A complex picture of protracted displacements, new displacements within the country to surrounding countries and further abroad. We turn now to tunisia. Talk about the experience of your country in dealing with libyan displacement and the crisis. Thank you very much. Wed like to think of libya as an opportunity for tunisia. Unfortunately, at the moment it is a problem for the whole region, but it is we consider it as a problem for tunisia because of the interconnection between the two countries, the two peoples and the very close relations, historical, cultural, and economic. After the revolution in tunisia and the revolution in the start of the revolution in libya, we have received over 1 million libyans in tunisia. Most of them relied on their own means in cities but we have had around 90000 libyans who are in refugee camps in tunisia. And the success of the libyan solution was good news for tunisians because many people, particularly the refugees, went back home. And we all hoped with the stability and opportunity for everybody. Unfortunately, things did not turn out to be very easy for everybody, for the tunisian process, which was quite long and painful. But for the libyans they are going through more conflicts and a more painful process. Right now we have its not easy to give figures precise figures, but we have an estimation of more than 1 million libyans living in tunisia. Moffett of them most of them are middleclass tunisia. Most of them we could call them refugees. Most of them are relying on their own means, on their savings. And more or less, they are living in very good conditions. The tunisia law allows libyans free circulation to tunisia, freedom to establish business and to be in tunisia like any other citizen. So this is a quite positive picture. In terms of repercussions to tunisia, i would start with the good news, the positive. The libyans come with capital influx and help the economy, about 1 billion euro injected into the economy. But unfortunately this positive picture does not could not hide the negative impact so we have the pressure that we have on the tunisia economy in other aspects. You know, over 1 million that is more than 10 of the tunisian population and population increase 10 increase of the population with nonproduct