First fiction. It was also a finalist for the 2020 National Book award in the fiction category. So welcome deesha. Thanks for joining us. We also have steven sparks whos the cone coowner of point reyes books out in california. Hes worked at green apple books and the dalke archive and he is on the boards of dorothy a publishing project open letter books and the center for the art of translation. Thank you stephen for joining us. And last we have john shear whos the director of the university of North Carolina, press it is the oldest Scholarly Publishing house in the south. I am as a bookseller. Im compelled to say as well that john is a former bookseller at olsons in washington dc. Oh, im sorry, washington. Not dc. So, thank you everyone. I am going to start out with a question for you d shop. You have as i said had an incredibly successful university, press book. So what brought you to West Virginia up . Why did you just what pulled you in that direction instead of looking forward or deciding to go with a more traditional trade house. I venture to say not many people have their first books of fiction published through a up. Um the poll was that West VirginiaUniversity Press believed in my book and believed in the collection and believe in the stories and were very present. You know, ive said this to writers about their agents, but i think its true for your presses as well. You know, they help you make a better book and they give you good feedback, but your agents your press everyone should be your biggest fans. And before the book got any Critical Response and even just hearing the concept and seeing the stories. They were early champions of the book and it it was so comforting to know that like there are people that care about this book like i care about this book and you know, and i think i was kind of racing for a fight especially as as a black writer and ive had peers who are also black writers who published prior to my publishing and there were some fights that they were having with their publishers and so the tenor right away in the tone from West Virginia university was very collegial and very congenial and you know, i when the room opened i immediately said hi to my West Virginia university, press family because thats what it felt like and i felt like um, you know, i knew that my book was in good hands. So we were strangers initially but not for long and i think that you know, that was was the difference. Yeah. Yeah, i think people forget or whether its easy to kind of forget how collaborative a process publishing can be that you know, theres the myth of the author but when putting a book out of the world, theres so much more to it. And if thats the you know, West Virginia up its who you connected with. Theres a reason to be drawn. Drawn to them to make a better book. Mmhmm. Im glad you found each other because its a fantastic book, um turning the question to john and steven. What are some of the unique strengths that youve that you see in University Presses . Ill call on one of you if you dont answer. Well, john could john could certainly answer this from me from the inside and you know as a bookseller, especially as we kind of see this increasing, you know corporatization of publishing and you know and and things kind of become more and more centralized. I find just the sort of diversity of voices and even geographical differences with University Presses to be extremely important for for a healthy publishing and book selling ecosystem. You know you have here, you know, im an hour away from uc press here in berkeley and as much you know, and as things kind of centralize and and you know, turn over in the turn of books becomes more and more important for everyone the sale you have to sell this book and theres such a short view that the long view of the of the scholarly and you know Academic Press outlook is really important as important for us to as booksellers to kind of keep that in mind and you know, i think in allowing the space for for new ideas and kind of risky ideas also is as exciting for me as a book seller as it is a reader, you know, i would be curious to hear john from from your side how you know how you know what it was the ultimate benefits for you because youve youve worked in both commercial tradein and in University Press publishing. Yeah in between my stent as a book seller and and being at North Carolina. I was at basic in new york, which is a pretty, you know, Mission Driven and yet still profit driven publisher, and i think i think that last point stephen i want to pick up on which is the the timeline for commercial publishers is theres this kind of urgency it is, you know over distributed book. Do your best to get a bunch of publicity and then after 90 days you kind of like start watching for the returns to come in because the Conveyor Belt of new books is like its just its happening. And so i think one of the strengths of University Presses is i mean, i love hearing what dish is saying about West Virginia and West Virginia has made all University Presses. Look good in the last two years. So thank you to that team there but that sense of partnership and you know, not every book is ready to bolt out of the gate and you know, grab all the attention and some books just take a while to find their readership to find that you know there that the champion and University Presses realize that the investment is in that that relationship with the author and the production of beautiful books and and its not to get that 90day, you know moment of like bliss and then move on its to sustain things and one of the things i was so impressed with in watching this book gets so much attention was the momentum that built i mean a commercial publisher might have said, okay, we had a good 90 days and now lets its time to move on next thing and i feel like this book this book really just kind of kept finding new readers and and iterating and really positive ways. I just think University Presses are built for that type of of campaign, and i its great to hear you stephen say that that the booksellers recognize that too because if you return our day our books after 90 days, none of us are going to sell it books. Can john can you expand on or anyone else here . Like what is it constitutionally about a University Press that makes them willing or able to commit to a longer timeline to for their books . Well, but part of it is part of is just the economics of it. So, you know a commercial publisher makes such an investment in you know, it usually in an advance and in printing and in coop space advertising and they just thats the Business Model it is get that roi in the first 90 days and if you dont have it, then its time to move on to the next you know item in your risk pool with the University Presses. Like i said, the investment is much more in the development of the kind of lack of a better face intellectual property or the creative Creative Work and so, you know most these things just take a while to find find readers and i so i just think you know because our risk isnt in this kind of our Business Model doesnt require the quick return on the investment that were actually better off with, you know, the proverbial long tail and that i just think thats were just built for that type of model and again if we have booksellers who understand that model and will give us the patients to to make sure that these books sell over time then i think it kind of works. So stephen what given that this tends to be the focus of ups and what comes out of ups . How do you see that reflected . And whats on the shelves and whats on the table that youre choosing to bring into your bookstore . How whats the difference between the types of things coming out from ups and the types of things coming out for me even serious trade nonpublishers. No, no publishers not nonpublishers. Um, you know, i think thank you aspect it was certainly that is big. Like University Presses do for us i think a lot where a general interest bookstore the kind of has a focus on natural role in the environment. And so, you know, you see presses field guide series is something that we would regardless whatever it is is california based. Its in the west we bring it in for other books, you know, its sort of books that are cutting edge that that kind of seem like theyre doing work that were going to be thinking about in a few years and so to kind of get a you know a foot in the door earlier to say like, okay, were were interested in this, you know, i think a lot about one of the kind of pre the questions you send a little earlier was was a whats kind of an emblematic University Press book and i think about anna sings mushroom at the end of the world, which was a book, you know, i think it came out 2016 and hard pepper. It was just in the past year released in a trade edition because this is the kind of book that laid some groundwork through word of mouth, you know, which is for a bookseller. Thats the best kind of hand sell, you know, like we want those books like we you know, we love the books that Marketing Budgets that get all the reviews and you know, but the book that we want to hand. Someone is the book that were passionate about that might not have that kind of marketing behind it. But you see a book like this. Its a slow burn it kind of goes and suddenly, you know, five years later through word of mouth and through citation. You have a book that that is and everyones sort of everyones consciousness and people come into the store and they say well ive heard of this and so you kind of watch that groundwork being laid and i think about that when im buying for the store, you know, like what what book white might we be thinking about in five years, whatever the timeline is. Yeah. So for to jump straight to that question for everyone are john and diesha. Do you have examples of books that are emblematic of University Press books . And then about implement, but i do have two favorites that i wanted to mention that people may not even know were university, press well, everybody this audience probably knows um, but my friend honorary finone jeffers whose book is oprahs book pick now and her novel is and its a shortlisted or its a finalists. It was a finalist for the carcass prize. Her prior book was a collection of poetry last year the age of phyllis which was long listed for the National Book award and it was published by wesleyan University Press and then another fellow mba finalists for nonfiction was gerald walkers how to make a slave and that was an imprint. I think its called mad creek, which is an imprint of ohio university, ohio state universitys press and so those were books that you know last year when people would write stories say you know there are these three books that are you know University Pressbooks and and i dont know that people knew that about those wonderful wonderful one is a collection of poems and is one a collection of essays. Im gonna be less generous than dean and talk about one of one of my own books, but we published a book three years ago now called race for profit by kiyanka Yamada Taylor who is at princeton. So this book this is a revised dissertation. So let me start there. This is a revised dissertation 10 years later more research. This is a densely research book. It is not, you know beach reading but it is a vital book. This is a book. That was a finalist or a long list for the National Book award a finalists for the pulitzer. She got a writing gig at the new yorker. She won a macarthur i mean, this is a woman whos whose time has come but the publication of the book was this kind of singular moment. I when i was at basic, im not sure we would have taken on a book like this because it felt you know, it had these kind of these elements to its origins that kind of make commercial publishers like, you know, its got lots of research and its a revised dissertation and so you know at an end up being a windfall for us as well. Although. We we knew she was going to be successful, but we didnt know it was going to be like that. So its just its just a very satisfying moment to have Something Like that where it fits in with the core of what were trying to do as a scholarly publisher, but has these moments of Public Engagement and impact and then, you know catapults somebodys career into a place where none of us could have imagined, you know, before we published it. And allows them to be then be swept up by a commercial publishers as taylor probably had a number of titles, you know widely published and then, you know accessible all across the country. It sounds like among the three of the picks for the three of you each has the common trait of taking a risk whether its on a new writer or a type of argument or methodology that a commercial publisher might not be ready to commit to for in their financial models you noted john and i think thats such a strong trait of ups. Is that risk taking putting the time and effort into developing these these works to share them with the wider audience. Yeah, i mean the truth is i think almost every book we sign is more likely than not to lose money and potentially even lose significant money. And so which isnt to say that we are a cavalier about it, but were not going into it with this sense of like every book has to generate a certain contribution to the you know, the margin of the organization. So once you once you stipulate that were doing this for a sense of mission, then you you make choices a little bit differently and and you know, were talking about the Success Stories and i have you know scores of books that did not get nominated for the pulitzer prize, but but but once you kind of take that sense of like every book has to make a certain amount of money it just kind of changes the way that you think about things and then every once while you kind of do everything right and you have a Success Story like the ones talking about today. And i would add to that as well. You know, i think the store is alina certainly for you at the the sem coop and stores that i think that like ours and city lights and you know various others across the country that have that feel more Mission Driven, and i think we understand that as well when were bringing in books like these books and independent pressbooks that that you know, some books will earn their keep and beyond and they can help support, you know, theres an ecosystem here where you know, were okay to leave that shelf space, you know that book there for years, even you know, if we think that we believe in it and so that kind of trickles down that sense of mission and the long view trickles down to to us as well. Yeah, i completely agree in terms of how we decide what to keep on our shelves and what we decide to bring in and how long it stays that that sense of risk taking. Is present in the book selling side as well, but i want to ask about the risk taking on the on the writers side. Disha, the you talked about finding a community to support your book a place where there could be diverse set of authors is would you im trying to figure out how to phrase the question but would you ever try to write for a different audience based on where youre publishing the book, you know like, how is that how is that the actual publication the production of the book . How does that affect your writing process if at all . Well, you know with this book when i started writing the stories, i wasnt even thinking. I was writing a collection and i really had no expectation on the publishing end of of things. My first book was actually a Nonfiction Book on coparenting that i coauthored with my exhusband and that book was traditionally published. And so when i was working on the stories and then even once i knew i was working on a collection i thought you know, and everybody will tell you a publishing short story collections dont sell so i mean the bar was like of my expectations. Okay, you know really low that i may not find anyone that wants to to publish this book but one of the things that was really important to me is like if i do get a book deal if i do get the opportunity to have this book traditionally published like the first book. I hope its a publisher thats willing to invest in promoting the book because you can write edible book and it can be great but you really need help finding that audience. Sometimes through the the marketing and promotion, so i didnt think about that when i was writing the stories because i felt like it was out of my hands, you know, i was just, you know, kind of hoping for the best but you know again the experience with wvu was completely different from my Prior Experience there were times when i didnt even think the editors at the other publisher for the not the coparently book was like did we her off . I dont know. She just you know, were happy about it. Whereas everything with you know from the time of getting the book deal to the editorial process. It was all as the word you use very collaborative. I felt like everybody on the team and thats what it was. It was really a team. We were all singularly minded about giving this book the best chance for success and that included also part of our team. The Publicity Team the publicist Jeremy Wang Iverson at vestal pr and i was i thought th