Start he began it with us the bernard and irene shorts classic film series, now in its fifth year. And it is just growing and growing. So mr. Swartz, thank you so much. Lets give him a great hand. [applause] i also want to recognize joel pickett, davids elastic, trustees with us, and all the chairmans counsel for all the great work and support. Lets give them all a great hand, as well. [applause] so the program tonight will last an we will have a question hour. And answer session. We are doing the questions on cards. It works better, everyone gets a chance to ask questions, and we get a lot more questions covered. So you should have received a pencil and a card. If you have not, staff will go up and down the aisles with them , and then we will collect them and hand them to our moderator. There will be a formal book signing after the program, so please stay for the book signing. The books are for sale. In the museum store on the 77th street side. So we are so happy to welcome john steele gordon, the speaker to me, to the New York Historical society. He is a writer and historian specializing in business and financial history. He is also a contributing editor at philanthropy and wrote a business of america column for American Heritage from 1989 also served ashe contributing editor. As many books include hamiltons blessing and his latest washingtons monument. ,we are also thrilled to welcome back akhil reed amar, professor of law and political silence science at yale university. Before joining the law school, the professor clerked for judge first stephen breyer. He is the recipient of yales highest award for teaching excellence. He continues to teach us every time he is on the stage. He is the author of several books, including his latest, the constitution today. Professor amar is also an honorary scholar trustee here at New York Historical. Our moderator is carol berkin. She is a professor of history in the root college and the Graduate Center new york. , an esteemed historian, she has appeared in numerous documentaries, including the pbs special Alexander Hamilton. Professor berkin is author and editor of several books, including a brilliant solution, inventing the American Revolution, and her forthcoming book the republican peril. She will be with us again for that as well. Before we begin i would like to , ask everyone, if you have a cell phone, please turn it off and to please enjoy this program. Have a great night and we will see you again. Thank you so much. [applause] carol berkin welcome. Both George Washington and Alexander Hamilton are enjoying a new and favorable press these days. Although washington has always been lauded as first in the hearts of his countrymen and the father of our country, his intellect and his political skills have often seem to be eclipsed by the brilliance of the men who surrounded him. Yet recent scholarship has come to reassess the president and to see him as a skilled political leader and an active shaper of our political traditions. He is now lauded for what some today might call his social intelligence, his ability to read the situation well and to assess what response would be most beneficial and effective. Hamilton, of course, is now the darling of broadway. [laughter] carol berkin where once he was dismissed and loathed on occasion as an elitist, contemptuous of the Common People a man whose fiscal and , economic policies somehow produced the corporate abuses of the gilded age and today, he has now been redrawn as the exemplar of americas immigrant rags to riches story, as a young, bold patriotic genius, the very symbol of the virtues of the melting pot. We are fortunate tonight to have with me two scholars who are Renowned Experts in the world of 18thcentury america and who will help us peel away the myths and exaggerations that often cloud our understanding of these two central characters in our past. I want to begin with two questions about the men themselves. How would you assess the character and temperament of washington and hamilton . What you think their strengths and weaknesses were as public figures, and even as private individuals . John gordon well, i think washington and hamilton were very, very different men. They came from different backgrounds. I mean washington physically was very big for his age. Hamilton was somewhat on the small side. Washington was, he was very steady, but he was not an intellectual. Hamilton certainly was. He was one of the brightest people who ever walked the earth, i think. And was always in high gear. Hamilton, he would have worn me out in 20 minutes. Whereas washington was much more steady. And that is perhaps why they made such a great combination. They were, you know abbott to , costello or whatever. Carol berkin now you are dating herself. Yourself. John gordon maybe rogers and hammerstein is a better combination. Hamilton of course came from a very poor background. He was john adams, who could be a right nasty man, dismissed him as the battered bastard of a peddler. He was not legitimate. His father was not a peddler. Probably a more accurate to call dowell, whoneer deserted the family and then his mother quickly died, leaving him an orphan at seven or eight years old. He more or less was on his own from that point on, and he literally grew up in a countinghouse belonging to majoras kruger, who was a merchant in st. Croix in the west indies. From the very beginning, he knew about getting and spending and accounts and how you had to buy low and sell dear if you wanted to get ahead. Most of the other founding fathers, the major founding fathers, had been born into far better economic circumstances. Some of them born into very good circumstances. Thomas jefferson was one of the richest men in the colonies. Of the major Benjamin Franklin ones, came from a lower middle class family with a great many children, but of course by the time of the revolution, franklin was old, venerable, worldfamous , and very rich. He was a very good businessman as well as being a genius. And so the main difference between hamilton and washington was they made a great combination. They filled in the missing parts of the other. Carol berkin akhil. Akhil i think the metaphor of a combination is a nice one. Washington was acclamation the greatest horseman of his age. We can think of hamilton as the fastest horse in the state, but only washington could ride him. [laughter] dale gregory when you have akhil amar when you have a great horse and a great jockey, that is a pretty extraordinary combination to behold. Washington of course is a horse whisper it. He himself is a person of volcanic temperament but he learns early on to control himself. He learns selfmastery, and he is this horse whisperer who actually calms the very high strong very skittish, very fast , Alexander Hamilton. And hamilton when washington isnt around, gets himself into trouble. When washington monitors him, after washington give washington credit, he recognizes talent. He surrounds himself with people who are smarter than he is on points, kind of points grounds. , you put it well, he has a social intelligence, and they all look up to him as their master. And he his left and hamilton on his right in the cabinet, and try to get them to at least talk to him and report him so he can be the decider in chief. The relationship is even more interesting and complex in that washington has no children of his own. He has no son. Hamilton, as we heard, really has no father. They find each other. Washington does refer to him as my boy from time to time. There is an affectionate overlay. There actually is a quite interesting, ridiculous but interesting rumor that circulates. Americans there have always been this paranoid strand of american history. The rumor is that hamilton is actually the illegitimate son of washington. [laughter] akhil it is preposterous because one is 63 and the other is 57. But washington at a young age did take a cruise [laughter] akhil i am reporting what people said at the time. They are living in a time when all the narratives are of secret birth. Arthur being the secret son of uther pendragon. Of jesus being actually the descendent of david, but no one but the magi knows it at the time. British history is littered with secret sons. And in fact, washington is there three years before hamiltons birth and he never really goes to st. Croix, but i have not seen the birth certificate. [laughter] akhil this amount of because even ridiculous paranoia captures certain truth. There is extraordinary chemistry between these two people, and one way of thinking about it is, to some extent, a fatherson relationship. Carol that is what i want us to get to. Their relationship is the subject of several books. People ponder were going to come on and fix akhils microphone. You can keep talking. We will try to switch something out. There is some interference, and we want the audience not to hear the crackling. Keeps talking keep talking now. Im sorry to interrupt. Carol where was i . The relationship. I want to read you a quote from hamilton. People have often taken two quotes out of context. One is that hamilton says that washington was a great shield. Immediately if you are a jeffersonian, you say, see, he used washington. He didnt really care for him he , was only using him and did not care for him. At one point in hamiltons relationship with washington, washington says to him when he is an aid to camp, he says come see me immediately. Hamilton says yes, but he runs hamilton says yes, but he runs into the Marquis Lafayette and he stops to chat with this young and charming fellow. Washington is furious. He says, you kept me waiting 10 minutes. Hamilton says, i only kept you waiting two minutes, sir. They argue and washington is unrelenting in his disapproval and hamilton is furious. He writes to a man who would be his fatherinlaw, i always disliked the office of an aide de camp. For the last month i have felt no friendship for him. And have professed nun. Professed none. Our dispositions of the opposite of each other and the pride of my temperament would not allow me to profess what i do not feel. I have an 18yearold son uses the same thing about me on a regular basis. [laughter] carol there is a danger in taking these momentary statements and reading into them a relationship, a definition of a whole relationship. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about was this a mentoring relationship . Did it change over time . Was it purely a Political Alliance . Do you have anything more to say about the character of this relationship between the two of them . Akhil we could contrast the relationship with jeffersons relationship with washington, which i think was more about his disloyalty. Jefferson backstabbed washington. He said things behind his back , mobilized opposition to washingtons policies, and then denied it when confronted by hamilton. They are all forceful people, but hamilton is going to stab you in the chest, not the back. Carol and then write 58 pages defending himself. John in one night. [laughter] carol right. Akhil you are right, it is a relationship over time. Good ripens. It ripens. Washington trusts hamilton throughout the course of his life. At the end of his life, the twilight, he is being summoned back into possible National Service one more time just when he thought he was finally going to be able to rest at home comfortably. John adams says, there is a quasiwar with france, will you ride yet again to the rescue of your country . Washington says yes, but you have to let me pick my deputies. Just as today, cabinet officers might say i will serve only if i can pick my staff. And he wants hamilton. He knows he can trust hamilton and he knows all of hamiltons talents. If he is going to take the blame for failure, hes going to want his guy helping him and hamilton is his guy. Carol john . John i think hamilton was because of the circumstances of his birth, was fiercely ambitious. He wanted to rise. Washington was born what was born into what was called the middling sort of landowners and then became quite rich when he married martha. Washington, while he was certainly ambitious in one way, he was less ferocious about it. There was a story i have always loved, at the end of the revolutionary war comment before the treaty of peace was signed in 1783, king george the third was being painted by benjamin west, the artist born in this country but who made his career in england, and as often happens between sitters and portrait painters, they were talking. George iii said, what is George Washington going to do upon the signing of the peace treaty . West says, he is going to retire from the army and return to mount vernon. George iii is absolutely astounded and says, if he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world. And of course that is exactly what he did. George washingtons come very few and far between. The only one i can think in the 20th century that begins to approach it is nelson mandela. Carol it is interesting, i always thought washington cared about his reputation and hamilton cared about being recognized. John yes. Carol that was a different as explained in large part by their backgrounds. But hamiltons desire to be acknowledged was really unquenchable. Akhil hamiltons love of fame, it is the ruling passion of the noblest minds. John hamilton when he got caught in an affair, was willing to make it public. It is inconceivable that washington would even be in an affair. Public tomake it prove there was no financial corruption. It was just then stupidly doing what men stupidly do, but nothing of a publicly dishonorable nature. John hamilton did this, this was not his only affair. Martha washington named one of Mount Vernons tom cats hamilton. [laughter] carol women called hamilton little adonis, and men called him little mars. The difference is remarkable. I think one of the things that endears hamilton to me is that he was not ambitious for wealth or himself, he was ambitious to create a powerful nation. Of all of the framers or founding fathers, no one burned more with the desire to make america i am afraid to use this phrase. [laughter] carol to make America Great for the first time. Early on in washingtons first administration, he says to the British Ambassador to america, he says, we are young, we are not there yet basically, but we are going to one day be everything you are and more. I think that was really what drove we talked about public service, i think his ambition was channeled almost entirely into this kind of public service, and he really wanted to be acknowledged for that. Akhil and not just public service, but especially for hamilton but also washington, National Public service. As an immigrant, hamilton does not grow up as a virginian or new yorker with a primal attachment to one state or another. He is in a position to make a vast amounts of money come he has inside information as secretary of the treasury, and is never interested in cashing in that way. Washington himself comes to associate his own ego and ambitions, in part, and he says actually, i can redo one thing he says in a first draft of his inaugural address. Because he has no children of his own, his child is the nation, and uniquely jefferson and madison, they are virginians all the way to the end. Washington comes to respect new york more in some ways than virginia. He comes to recognize some of the yankee virtues, the northern virtues. He has an army that is north and south. They are distinct, not just public service, but national. Carol hamilton has a great phrase. He said he wanted men who fought y not provincially. , akhil here is the first draft of washingtons first inaugural, which he gives here in the city of new york. Madison convinces him to take this out. Divine providence is not that my blood transmitted or my name enduringted by the in dur channel of immediate offspring. I have no child for which i can make a provision, no family to build in greatness upon my countrys ruin. No earthly consideration except to Render Service to our current country could have persuaded me to accept this appointment. You can trust me, i will not become a king. And in a great biography of washington, one of the chapters is called children not his own. Carol let me move on to political roles. What do you think washingtons vision for america was . We have touched on this, but what do you think he considered his most Important Role in achieving it . Hamilton, what was his vision . I often feel hamilton was sometimes the sole visionary of this group of extraordinary men, even before independence was one won he is mapping out how to make america a great power, to take its seat with the worlds great power. What was his vision, and how did he see his role in making it a reality . I spent a lot of time looking at hamiltons programs and i finally understood them because of his amazing discussion of them. [laughter] john i think, when hamilton when he became secretary of the treasury when he was still in his early 30s, he faced a really very serious economic problem. We got the constitution because basically the country was unable to pay its bills. The articles of confederation were just too weak. He becomes secretary of the treasury. Washington had first offered it to robert morris. Who was the financer of the revolution. That they did not ask him to many questions about how he did that. Morris turned him down because he wanted to speculate instead. A bad decision. Carol he ended up in jail, right . John yes. And morris said, hamilton is your boy. What hamilton faced was the government was deeply in debt but nobody knew how much because , the American Revolution had been financed with what were called continentals. They just printed them. As fiat money always does, it depreciated to near worthlessness and a lot of it ended in the hands of the speculators who would give one cent on the dollar. He said that a national debt, if it is not excessive, will be to us a national blessing, and it has turned out to be that exactly. It saved the union in the civil war, it saved the economy in the 1930s, it saved the world in the 1940s. Why we have quintupled the debt in the last 40 years is another question. How to do that . He came up with a brilliant plan to refund the debt, refund the continentals, which would give all of the speculators profit. A lot of people thought that was wrong, they should not do that. Madison said only the original holder of the debt should get the fair value an