Pounding residential areas. Its civilians who are paying the debt you price. Ukrainian side meanwhile, says its seeking to amass an arm, a 1000000 troops. So on to the point we asked after capturing large pods of don, boss, will putin had enough tide for more with a warm welcome to to the point with these guests city. Liana fix is a political analyst focusing on russia in eastern europe. More its gutman is chief reporter with the german magazine, cicero and joining us from bon is my ukranian colleague, groman gone to ranko, who works with t ws fresh and language service. Thank you so much to all of you for joining us today. Liana, id like to start with you, your cleaning president followed you, mister lensky, speaking of this massive counter offensive to regain territories in the country south. Is it possible . Is that even possible for ukraine to do that . Well, you quite obviously needs, at this point, some kind of success and at the moment it would be easier to achieve the successes in the south. Although its still very difficult. Then in the east where wash its basically flowing all its actually on the ukrainian forces. And pushing forwards, meter, by meter, kilometer by kilometer. At the same time, its also a tactical decision to announce this this plan to prevent that washer will focus on all troops in the east, but also to we some of the troops in the east and to give where shall the opportunity to move to the south and there to keep them forces focused in the south. But obviously with regard to the weapons available to the ukrainian army, we need much more western support to ukraine to make such an offensive in the south successful. Well get to the weapons in a minute. Id like to get your opinion. Do you think that ukraine can even do that with the current capacities that they have . I think at the moment or ukraine is not capable of free capturing hassan region, for example. Because its one question to have 1000000 people who are ready to go and its another question to equip them properly. I just have one example of a friend to join the army several months ago and hes mainly equipped with stuff that her friends, the made it to him. Friends bought the equipment. And of course its her. A big operation against russians in the caps on region would have fortified their positions over the last month. Its a difficult area to offensive operation and her yes, as you said, her ukraine needs more than just soldiers to recapture this area. Thats right. Thats only one part before we ask roman about him. What the possibilities are. Id like to listen to what the russian president Vladimir Putin had to say about that the war is just beginning. Lets isnt it . Shouldnt you most lucian, dont of her that we hear that they wanted defeat us on the battlefield . What can i say still let them try it that the radio. Its a tragedy for the ukrainian people, but it looks like thats where its heading nor she goes. But every one should know that we havent even started anything in earnest yet. You initially so the, we have russian president saying that the war is just beginning. Id like to have the reaction of roman whos joining us from bond. Who is the russian president addressing here . Of course hes addressing, am ukraine, he is addressing the worst as ukraines main support of 4 weapons. And of course, hes also addressing his domestic public in russia. So i think it is indeed a point to where we can say this war is just at the beginning. So this will work very long. Conflict probably years ahead of us and russia is really holding back some reserves. It is using old soviet weapons ascending troops from far away regions and keeping all those best equipped troops from moscow or saint petersburg. So were in the west of frosh, a western part of russia. They are participating in this war but not on a large scale. So russia is preparing for a war of attrition. Were seeing this war of attrition happening. And ukraine needs much more weapons to be able to stand for a long time to, to be able to a try and recapture maybe some cities in the south at the moment. I think you can, it will be winning this, this at this moment. If it can stop the rush in advance. So stopping russians in the south, stopping them in the east and on bass would be a victory for the moment for ukraine, i think, sent us to add perhaps to that at the same time. Its also Strategic Communication operation. As were said towards the west to convey the impression, well, your support is futile. It doesnt make any sense because we can throw as much fold isnt as much material into the war as we want. Which is to some extent, of course, overblown because russia had some very heavy casualties. 24000 soldiers as estimated by, by the british side. So this is also a communication at hampton, a propaganda attempt to what the west, to play into war fatigue, to play into the Energy Crisis, into the inflation way, say some problems in western countries. Do you think its working the propaganda attempts to tell the wes, this will be a long war. It makes no sense for you to support to be unified with this is solidarity towards ukraine. Well, as i look at the german society, for example, i have the feeling that its working together with this inflation and Energy Crisis that we see in our country. Because the people for the 1st time now they understand that the impact of the war is happening here. People will see over the next month, the Energy Prices rising really the lot. And of course, people will pose the question to their government. Is it worth it . Isnt that worth . Maybe we need a compromise with russia. We heard these voices over the last 4 months, but they will be stronger even over the next month. And a bit at this moment, put it in ascending the sign. We havent started yet, or we can do much more. Of course, i have the feeling that this can work. Now, before we Start Talking about, you just mentioned energy price. Thats a really big topic, almost for another show. Lets focus on the situation on the ground with many saying that the war has just started now in february, but the war has been going on for years and years. So the fighting in some areas of the dunbar since 2014, after the annexation of crimea pro russian separatist wanted the east in ukraine region to secede from the rest of ukraine. And Russian Troops gradually advanced in the danbury with deadly consequences for the civilians living there. A mans body is recovered from the rubble of a multi story apartment building. Neighbors looking on are shocked by the rescue work in chassis b. R in dawn, ask, oh, blast. All that remains of the high rise is a pile of rubble. During the night rush and rockets hit the building, killing more than 40 residence. Only a few survivors could be rescued. Now we are always afraid, afraid at night and during the day because we never know when something might happen to us. A ukrainian soldier on home leave finds his grandmothers body under the rubble. Im at a loss for words. Most of all, i would like to kill putin with seemingly unlimited supplies of artillery and ammunition. Russias war machine appears to be slowly but fiercely moving forward. Meanwhile, russia has conquered almost the entire don bass region. What a rush has plans for the occupied dont boss really terrible situation for the civilians living there and theyre pounded boy. This russian missiles id like to pass the question on to you, leanna, what a russias plan for the occupied region. Well, what we see, what now is that russias pursuing a defacto annexation of the swedens, we have politicians coming in. We have washing structures installed in this weekends, ukrainian passports that are taken away and replaced by washing path. But so thats a strategy that we already know from the past. But what is crucial here is, and i think its really a without a good question to ask if Vladimir Putin has the appetite for more war. He definitely has because we really should not fall into this trap of thinking. Well, he just wants that little honey legions and then he will be satisfied. This is not a question about this is not a war about how it told me. This is a war about existence, about the existence of your queen as an independent nation and washers already. Now, beyond those territories, very active beyond those totals, it will continue to advance towards odessa if it has the opportunity. So the question of, you know, can we appease russia . Ukraine somehow agrees to a cease fire and to those regions with many and a washing control is really not a serious question. This is not what i was planning, but for some it is still a serious question. Saying that we should talk to russia, that they should be back again on the negotiation table. What do you think it is in . There have been so many red lines by the west when it comes to russia and who tim says, i can continue as long as i want to go. How is it possible to stop . And i think her, the only possibility is to show strength. This is the only thing actually that protein understands. Weve seen this over the last decade where we had several attempts of talking to put in. We had lots of politicians in the west is that we have to find a compromise. We have the russians. But unfortunately, this didnt work and those who havent understood this on february 24th, or maybe its their problem, putting only understands strength. And so we, on the one hand, we have to strengthen ukraine concerning the economy concerning the military. On the other hand, we have to find solutions for or for our own economies. This concerns, mainly guess because we are very, very much reliant on russian gas. And we have to redesign our Energy System over the upcoming 2 years. Not buying gas in other places after these 2 years, but somehow getting rid of gas because if we are just buying gas in other places, this will keep the gas prices on a high level. And this will be very useful to push it to finding a long Term Solution to the dependence of fresh and gas. Id like to us roman about the report that we just saw. Would rushes plans also considering that russia once now to have this fast procedure for ukrainians to get a russian passports . What is the plan on a long term . I agree with the owner has just said so the plan is to destroy ukraine as an independent state. And russian keeping on this path, and it is not going to try to fulfill this a quickly. So it russia is trying to, to cut ukraine in pieces because it is just too big to destroy it quickly. And that is why russia has occupied some territories. And is now trying to integrate them into russia by changing the currency. So you pay not in your opinion, but in russian noble. They are changing the school programs. Theyre sending russian politicians, Russian Military to control. And of course, they are trying to suppress the ukrainian position in those territories, the ukrainians, willing to fight behind the front lines. So this will take some time that i think the russia is probably will continue to occupy much more territory by fall maybe in winter. And the west is already doing a lot and what we have seen so far and the west is also facing a dilemma. If they are providing ukraine with more deadly weapons, like those high mars rocket launchers, which are very effective as we have seen in the last few days against russian ammunition depose and command post. And then the west is asking the question, where is the red line for putting when he will head back and he threatened to heat the targets in he didnt specify, but he said we could, we could hit targets that we havent had before. And she probably implied the ukranian government may be the kind of defense minister. So targets in the ukranian capital 1 may be targets in other major cities are military targets, targets maybe mar o for where, where you kind of command and is. So it is, it is very difficult for the west. On the one hand, they want to help. They want to supply more weapons, but they have to find a way not to cross a certain line which is not seen. Of course, nobody knows where that line is. Not to make this war much worse than it already is rolling. You mentioned the Civil Society and also the ukrainian a position induce occupied territories. And i would like to take a look at and the People Living there, the People Living in this place is this occupied cities and ukraine wants to retake an hour. You crank, responded. Nick connelly spoke with 2 citizens in the southern read, Southern City of had thought due to security concerns, they wanted to stay anonymous. And this is what they had to say. A beginning, we all thought the occupation would be over in a week. It was only a few months in that we finally understood that the russians were here to stay a little while it done before its fully of military vehicles. And fact, there are many places where were actually do the georgia and of course you dont hear about that. Many people working labs. I see also many posters, policies on facebook dealing disorder person is missing. When the russians came, we were expecting things would be as bad as in mary. You paul know we were scared to even look up the window. It was a fact that we can leave the house and buy food. Seems like a miracle. As you did the delivery day, which is how and where are we got the economy marathon rather than but how realistic is the Ukranian Army fund re conquest up the south and is russia wants to offer the ukrainians, the russian pants, but ukraine is telling them to leave the area as quickly as possible. How can they work more its i think theres a very important psychological problem. For example, in this region of kept phone at the moment, because the longer it takes for ukraine to take back these regions, or the more these people get, well get used to Russian Occupation. Of course, ukraine is telling them dont or collaborate with the russians. We will come back, but of course, if you are a citizen of your thoughts and youre waiting for months and months and years for you to come, you have to somehow live your life or leave the reasons, leave the region. So this is what we thought also in the don bus region 8 years ago. The ukrainians couldnt take these reasons back and of course, people after some time, either they left the region or they stayed there and they somehow adapted to Russian Occupation till longer process. They know that this war will continue also for months. If not years, they enter. What will that make with the western solidarity for ukraine . We have to 7 countries saying that they will support ukraine as long as it takes you think that there is a unity to support ukraine or that many countries. And ill say this is really getting difficult for us as well. I think still half unity at the moment, but the closer winter comes, the more urgent the Energy Problems become. The louder will become cold that we need is fire. And my concern is that at some point, moscow will play to these spheres as it does already know. And for instance, propose some kind of toxic proposal about, well, once theyve occupied pet, the entirety of the region of the net to offer a ceasefire, which obviously would not be credible. Cease fire from the wash inside. We know from wash us wall strategy in syria that they offer seat fires just to take a break for their own forces and come back even stronger. But the temptation will be there in the west to, to say, well, perhaps we should try to cease fire and possibly to pressure. You quain you quite as light, its lesson from 2014 a ceasefire doesnt work. Russia will come back and even worse than it has been in the past. But for the west, this will be a challenge if we see this kind of poisoned pill for moscow. Roman leanna just said ukraine learned its lesson from 2014. What about the west . Well, were still not sure why the the lessons were properly learned because now germany, when we speak about germany, is to having a huge problem with russian guess something which morris was more its was talking about. So the dependencies so immense over 50 percent of and german guess comes from russia. And we cannot solve this problem here in germany. Fast enough and ukraine needs a germany actually to stop buying russian gas because every dollar, every euro that germany pays for. It goes then probably to russian weapons to the russian army and is then turned against a crane. So there are still lessons to be learned and quickly. I would like just a few words if i may, to the, to the People Living now in the occupied territories in the south or in the east, in the east. Its a different different story because much part of dont boss or some part of it was already occupied in 2014, but it was a 1000, its a completely new situation and nobody knows how ukrainians living the those millions of people will react in a few months or in one year, leaving under Russian Occupation, i presume that as long as russia is strong and can suppress ukrainians living there and trying to oppose the new russian regime. As long as long as russia is strong, there will be probably no, no great changes there. But when russia is weakened by western sanctions, then i think an uprising is possible, but it is still too early to tell when this will happen and under which 2nd circumstances brian just mentioned the sanctions and we have all this discussion when it comes to north june 1, they have the annual maintenance, we have this turban in, in canada, they will now be sent to germany and then to russia, to activate this a gas pipeline against you think its credible when the west says we have the sanctions for russia. But as when they start affecting us more than we say, ok you, theyre not that important anymore. Well, theres a reason why there are no sanctions on gas so fine wide. There are Oil Sanctions that will only come into place at the end of the year. And that is exactly the dependency of the west on washing got so the idea is also when it comes to this turban, it is to make clear that a dish washer, which is cutting off the gas and that germany is not sort of, its not, its not the fold of the German Government and this is obviously domestic communication towards the german public. If gas supply is from wash, i get further cut. It is a very we active strategy. It is not a pro active strategy of trying to push on moscow, for instance, to caps and gas prices. But it is a strategy to fill the storages and to try to out play moscow. This is why we dont supply gas to germany anymore or to europe. I want to add one more thing to this gas question we see in germany, or how difficult the situation is concerning gas concerni