Suggested we should all be kind to each other and not obsessed by power and money. And he got crucified for that. It seemed crucified for that. It seemed a bit unfair , for i became bit unfair, for i became frightened that some thing that was so clearly important , from was so clearly important, from the way that people behaved about it, was completely incomprehensible. So i decided incomprehensible. So i decided it was all rubbish. So i became an atheist for about 25 years, and then i read a book by Aldous Huxley that said there were two approaches to religion. One was to do with people hoping to have some experience of the divine and the other was the religion of words and symbols, which seemed to me to boil down, to crowd control. But that first bit got me interested. Now my first guest here is helen. Helen, i want you to look at that camera and tell me your name. Name. The names bond. Helen bond. Ha, ha. Thank you. I love it. Now you are professor of. Christian origins professor of. Christian origins at university of edinburgh. At university of edinburgh. Yes. Thats right. Yes. Thats right. And ive asked helen because actually, we know each other. We have. We met before. We have. We met before. We have. We met before. We met before. And you will not believe when the monty not believe this when the monty pythons doing the at pythons were doing the show at the o2 in 2014, we did 15 performances to 16,000 people at the very same time. There was a the very same time. There was a conference going on right at what, university of london. 7 it was Kings College london, and it was put together by our good friend joan taylor, who cant be with us because shes in new zealand and joan organised. Ive been quite serious, a conference about the effects that the film life of brian had had on biblical studies. Right. And it was one of the most popular conferences ever. People were just queuing up both to be on the on the line up and also to come along to them. And theres a real book of the proceedings of this conference. So what, what i cant remember what did they say that the film had done to help christian scholarship. 7 christian scholarship . Well, i suppose the thing is, its a useful thing to think with. So we thought about what are the things that the pythons got right and theres lots of things that the pythons got right. And, you know, right. And, you know, particularly to do with the political social world of political and social world of the First Century, situating jesus within this jewish landscape and also some of the things, perhaps, that the pythons got wrong or that theyre just help us to think a little bit about how were putting together the life of jesus. It was really interesting to think that we given actually given proper academics a new perspective. So i thought it would be fun if i asked helen some questions about christy vanity, which are kind of very, very simple. But i think that there are things that people dont know. I mean, for a start, we what evidence is there for christs existence other than whats in the bible . Theres actually really good evidence that he existed , and evidence that he existed, and its not from absolutely the same time, but from about sort of 60 years later, theres a jewish historian called josephus , and he writes about jesus. The , and he writes about jesus. The passage has been edited by christians. So we have to be a little bit careful about it. But were pretty sure that he did write something about jesus, and he was a jewish historian, a jewish historian. Hes got no jewish historian. Hes got no particular axe to grind about christianity. He just lists it in, in amongst a sort of a series of tumults and problems that happened when Pontius Pilate was governor. And then within a century of the life of jesus, we have roman writers mentioning him. So we have tacitus, we have pliny mentioning christian. Are they saying, well, tacitus, he he says that jesus was was executed. He suffered the supreme punishment. Crucify fiction under Pontius Pilate. And hes actually interested in in christians, in, in rome under nero. So thats what hes telling us about. But just as a sort of side line, an intro, he just mentions jesus. Theres all this evidence thats not from inside the bible i yeah. And the thing is, people will say, oh, well, thats decades later. But given the fact that jesus was an artisan, hes a kind of person who would not normally show up in any kind of records. Who would not normally show up in any kind of records. And, you in any kind of records. And, you know, again, weve lost lots and lots of information , lots of lots of information, lots of written texts from the ancient world. And we know more about jesus than we actually do about many other significant people from the classical world. More than we know about john. More than we know about john. Mhm. What is this all about . Mhm. What is this all about . Well, its about christianity i a avery avery. A very. A very. All right. Lets talk now about the bible , which is about the bible, which is obviously our main source. What obviously our main source. What were the first time, time anybody wrote about jesus was my mark. No, actually what people dont always realise is that the earliest christian texts are from paul. So probably in the late 40s or so, paul the apostle, the one who goes sailing about the mediterranean and founding christian churches. And founding christian churches. Hes the first one to write, and he writes letters to all these places that hes visited. I see, places that hes visited. I see, so theyre from the 40s, 50s. Christ is crucified around 33. Or is it later . 33. Or is it later . Around about early 30s . Yeah around about early 30s . Yeah so within a very few years paulis so within a very few years paul is writing about it. Yeah. So paul, paul becomes a christian within, you know, very soon after that. And, and then soon after that. And, and then he starts on his journeys and certainly within 15 years or so, he starts to write letters. And paul knows people who knew jesus and the disciples are writing letters to Christian Communities which have already formed. Yes, which have already formed. Yes, some of them he formed himself. And so hes kind of keeping in touch with them by by letter afterwards. Afterwards. Now tell us what the bible tells us about jesus. His Ministry Starts through the years before his death. Years before his death. Its very hard to know. Years before his death. Its very hard to know. I mean, three, three years is taken from johns gospel, which suggests that theres at least, well, theres three passovers there. So youve got at least sort of two and a half years. Marks gospel and matthew and luke give us no sense of chronology. I mean, maybe, maybe three years, i mean, maybe longer. We really start in galilee and we start with, i shall make you fishers of men. Shall make you fishers of men. Yes. Yes. Or people we would say nowadays. Oh, sorry. Yes, sorry. I oh, sorry. Yes, sorry. I forget about this stuff. Im very old. I know the king james version. Yes. Fishers of people and then we hear about some of his sermons and some of his miracles. Healing people , which miracles. Healing people, which i find quite possible because they are healed. Those who can they are healed. Those who can do extraordinary thing. I think theres no doubt about that at all. Well, i think its interesting that that in the ancient world the opponents dont say , no, he couldnt do dont say, no, he couldnt do those things. I mean, some of those things. I mean, some of the rabbinic sources call him a sorcerer, but what theyre disputing is where the power comes from, you know, is he challenging channelling the power of god or is he working with with evil spirits . But i think historically de jesuss miracles were probably the most significant thing about him. Its the miracles that draw the crowds. And, you know, in the ancient world theres very few doctors or people with any medical knowledge. Everyone must medical knowledge. Everyone must have had something that they wanted healing. So all these wanted healing. So all these people are coming to him and in a way, once hes got that captive audience, then he starts to tell them about the kingdom of god. This this sort of place, this , this new realm where god this, this new realm where god is going to be in charge. And thats when hes got his his audience after the crucifixion. Audience after the crucifixion. Can you sum up what the bible says about what happens then in terms of the resurrection . Terms of the resurrection . Well, yeah. So on on the sunday morning, well, yeah. So on on the sunday morning , the third day, sunday morning, the third day, um, women come back to the tomb and they find it empty and dont know quite what to do about it. In marks gospel, they just run off. Thats it. Theyre terrified. And in the other terrified. And in the other gospels, they also include appearances of the risen jesus. And so that then, uh , uh, i and so that then, uh, uh, i suppose , persuades jesuss suppose, persuades jesuss followers that hes not dead, but he has. And in their but he has. And in their language of the gospels, he has been risen. He has been raised. Been risen. He has been raised. So hes been raised by god. This isnt something he does, but god raises him up. Theres always this gap between the fact that religions are always founded by mr x, and i think christ was a mystic. You i think christ was a mystic. You know, most of us dont go into the desert for 40 years. You know, i think 40 days, not 40 days. I dont think wed survive 40 biblical studies. 40 days. Biblical studies. 40 days. Um, he was a mystic and yet rely regions seem to finish up being administered by people who are deaf , not mystics, and who are deaf, not mystics, and who seem to be a bit more like bureaucrats who are determined to preserve the power of the organisation. Organisation. Theyre started by mystics or charisma, mystics, people, people who , by the strength of people who, by the strength of their own personality , their their own personality, their their own personality, their their sense of the spirit. But, their sense of the spirit. But, um, can can gather crowds around them. I think. I mean, what my them. I think. I mean, what my reading of, of, of certainly certain periods of christianity is that this sort of move towards bureaucracy often happened with the best of intentions. So, you know, in those early years , um, those early years, um, christians thought that the end of the world was coming when they realised that it wasnt coming quite so soon as theyd thought , they start to realise thought, they start to realise that, you know , weve got to that, you know, weve got to weve got plan , weve got to weve got to plan, weve got to plan to the world. Weve plan to be in the world. Weve got to sort of batten down the hatches. Weve got to look, um, you respectable. And you know, respectable. And thats the point, actually , thats the point, actually, where where women start to be sort of pushed down and smothered by christianity. Its smothered by christianity. Its extraordinary, you know, i mean, in, in, in jesuss time, women are disciples. Theres very good evidence for women disciples and even paul, who gets a bad press on this, he talks about women as deacons. He sends letters with women. Um, he talks about women as apostles. Hes very open to womens ministry. Does this , does this all does this, does this all change with constantine . But i think a lot of the damage had been done by then. You know, the sort of hierarchy had already developed. I mean, it much more , um, sort of it became much more, um, sort of articulated and, and, and clear cut. By that time, women articulated and, and, and clear cut. By that time, women had already been sort of pushed down and oppressed and, um, and i think throughout the sort of the history of the church, theres always theres always some threat, you know, whether thats the rise of science or rationalism and, and often i think the way that the church reacts is probably wrongly, is to sort of batten down the hatches. You know, we believe that fundamental. That fundamental. Yeah. It works as a sort of a power organisation. Helen, this power organisation. Helen, this has been an absolute delight. Youve told me stuff ive been thinking about. I wont say all my life. I say since i started reading stuff preparatory to writing life of brian. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Only on gb news, the peoples channel only on gb news, the peoples channel, britains news channel. Channel, britains news channel. Now theres a very good reason why i want to talk to my next guest , who was a professor next guest, who was a professor of philosophy of religion at cambridge. Right. Cambridge. Right. Associate professor. But thanks for promoting me. Youre a professor. Im not prepared to argue about this, james. Or everything. That i looked at when i got interested , noted in religion interested, noted in religion was an effort for me because i had to uproot all the assumptions that i got from being in a Christian Culture for umpteen years. Can you talk umpteen years. Can you talk a little bit about that . Well, john, what happened to you happened to the west about 500 years ago. Um, you know , 500 years ago. Um, you know, once upon a time, religion often didnt really mean anything as something that was as just a distinct tradition. You know, distinct tradition. You know, once upon a time, there was no secularism. There was no real religion. Everything was christian loosely, everything was christendom. Um, and so its was christendom. Um, and so its only really when , you know, when only really when, you know, when the west moved out and started to in the age of exploration in particular, started realising that very sophisticated that these very sophisticated Belief Systems elsewhere in the world. Yeah. And so thats when people started thinking, well, well, gosh, there are other traditions here. There are other Belief Systems. Which ones right . And so religion right . And then so religion emerges alongside secularism. Um the idea that actually if were going to make sure we havent got any wars over this stuff because people feel this, these beliefs pretty deeply, we should make sure weve got a nice neutral public square. And so we should start privatising these these beliefs. Um, but i think these beliefs. Um, but i think when you were coming of age, not so long ago, um , the world was so long ago, um, the world was opening up to all sorts of different traditions, and britain was opening up to , um, britain was opening up to, um, migrant communities who were believing Different Things and were trying to navigate these different, belief different, different Belief Systems so was there was systems. And so it was there was a sort of sense of dislocation and a sense of something that we were so familiar to us is starting is not obvious to everybody. I mean, one of the assumptions was that most religions have a god , right . Religions have a god, right . Theni religions have a god, right . Then i discover that hinduism , then i discover that hinduism, uh, can be said to have lots of god. And of course , buddhism god. And of course, buddhism doesnt have any at all. Yeah, yeah, well , theres yeah, yeah, well, theres been a fascinating Treasure Hunt in the last 50 years among scholars who study religion for the meaning of religion. And it turns out, 50 years on, they still cant quite work out what the definition of a religion is , the definition of a religion is, really, because, as you say , really, because, as you say, there are all sorts of traditions that wed want to say thats definitely a religion , thats definitely a religion, but they dont seem to be theistic. They dont really seem to sort of god as the to have a sort of god as the object of their worship, in quite the way that we would understand. I think maybe understand. So i think maybe a better way thinking about it better way of thinking about it is, know, what are the sort is, you know, what are the sort of of religious belief. Of features of religious belief. And lots of and there are lots and lots of ingredients that go into the mix. Often of mix. Theres often a sort of sense of sacred, something sense of the sacred, something that needs to be set apart around can around which the society can sort itself. Theres sort of build itself. Theres um, theres a ritualistic element. Often theres an emotional element. Its something that just to do something that isnt just to do with the mind and just to do with the mind and just to do with cognition, but but meaning what you know, the what satisfies, you know, the sense of the yearning for some, uh, some explanation for, for the way the world is that you guys satirised so well in in the meaning of life. Um, and thats something that, that its not just religious people come to think but also philosophers. Think of, but also philosophers. I mean, yeah, think of think of Aristotle Aristotle you aristotle. Aristotle says, you know apart from the know what sets us apart from the rest the Animal Kingdom is rest of the Animal Kingdom is that a desire to that were driven by a desire to understand. Its very, very understand. Its a very, very strange feature of, of human beings that should of, beings that we should sort of, you they should you know, that they should spend their afternoons sitting down talking about things like religion. Its very curious behaviour the Animal Kingdom behaviour for the Animal Kingdom. Um, and so religion, you can think of religions as a sort of the human response or expression or , or the human attempt to or, or the human attempt to reach a certain set of answers about questions of fundamental concern, questions of ultimate concern. What is it going to be ultimately. Concern. What is it going to be ultimately. This is the most important. And that might be a god. It might be jesus. It might be brian it or it might be brians gourd, or it might be brians gourd, or it might be brians sandal. You know, theres a focal point for the sacred around which a group can organise themselves and start making sense of the world. But your idea for or clarity, that clarity is important to defining the members and all that kind of thing that isnt true of some of the Eastern Religions because thats more about practice than than, uh, theology. Erg. Yes. Theology. Erg. Yes. I mean, theres an enormous sort of mix of, of practice and theology and in fact, very profound philosophy. And when we profound philosophy. And when we talk about theology and we talk about philosophy, we sometimes forget that theres actually no difference between the two before, certainly the west , before, certainly in the west, before, certainly in the w