Least dennis may disagree on the boats issue. We should have just told the echr this is none of your business, rather like we did on prisoner voting, we should. Problem is the should. The problem is the Strasbourg Court historically always overreaches its own powers. Um, always overreaches its own powers. Um, and so i think our own sovereign parliament, just as we did on prisoner voting from time to time , would be from time to time, would be within our rights to say this is nothing do you. And if nothing to do with you. And if they accept that, we they dont accept that, then we should they dont accept that, then we sho Denis Macshane do you disagree . Yes , because prisoner voting yes, because prisoner voting was never. Prisoner voting was never a convention of the council of europe. Europe. It was a proposal. It was a proposal. And we said, no thanks. I discussed it with home secretaries. Theyre just very nervous of pubuc theyre just very nervous of Public Opinion in switzerland, other countries , very other countries, very democratic. Theyve had it for years. Not a democratic. Theyve had it for years. Not a big argument on this. Dont forget it was the council, rather the European Convention on human rights that stopped, frankly, hooding. And stopped, frankly, hooding. And lets be honest, mark, torture of ira terrorists. Theyre bad people. Theyll theyre bad people. Theyll be tortured by British Security services in a way that if it happenedin services in a way that if it happened in russia or china , we happened in russia or china, we would go crazy and they stepped in and stopped it. And you know something . It didnt affect the balance, as it were , of authority or power. So i dont know what ben wallace really is, why hes surfacing again, he tried to get the nato job. He was rejected by every he was giving his first interview since he defence agent. his hands hes saying his hands were tied wretched tied by this wretched organisation sorry, the defence secretary not put people in secretary does not put people in prison, does not arrest people. The police do arrests terrorist operations, the security operation. No. Well, hes involved in it. Hes secretary mod is not in charge of counter terrorism. That is. That is. No, but dennis, remember , no, but dennis, remember, ben, in fairness to him, was the security minister for more than two years before he moved to the mod and i spoke to him a few days after he left office and i said, was it true this thing about you having three phones by your bed . He said, yes. He said, one was my personal mobile, one was my departmental phone, and the third was a top secret phone. And he said, even now ive left office. When i get of a left office. When i get out of a car, still myself down to car, i still pat myself down to say, wheres where three say, wheres where are my three phones . Know i no phones . Even though i know i no longer have three, even seem it to me. But when i came back in the car with tony from trips, but when i came back in the car vsay, tony from trips, but when i came back in the car vsay, sorry from trips, but when i came back in the car vsay, sorry if from trips, but when i came back in the car vsay, sorry if yomm trips, but when i came back in the car vsay, sorry if you dont. S, hed say, sorry if you dont. Well, hes dropped ben wallaces now drop tony. Well, hes dropped ben wallaces novwell, drop tony. Well, hes dropped ben wallaces novwell, drop on. Iy. Well, hang on. Well, hang on. About ben were talking about ben wallace and tony say, have wallace and tony would say, have you mobile you . Wallace and tony would say, have youbecause mobile you . Wallace and tony would say, have you because the� bile you . Wallace and tony would say, have you because the security you . Wallace and tony would say, have you because the Security Services because the Security Services or number 10. Wallace or the number 10. Wallace wouldnt let blair go anywhere with a mobile phone because any mobile phone is penetrable by the chinese. I mean, there are very good yeah, very good reasons. Then. Even then. Even then. Yeah. Youve been watching this havent you . This morning, havent you . Something thats been going on at tell us youve at westminster. Tell us youve come hotfooting it from there, havent was. Was 90 there was. There was a 90 minute westminster minute debate in Westminster Hall, which parliaments hall, which is parliaments second debating about second debating chamber in about out government proposals to close Ticket Offices at train stations. Stations. Yeah, a mad idea. Well it was packed at and not a single backbencher who spoke from any of the parties. Not a single tory backbencher defended the governments position and i, amongst others , position and i, amongst others, said to the minister, look, look around you, take the hint, retreat gracefully, drop it. Retreat gracefully, drop it. And its been a gift for the wretched unions, mark, because theyre that as another theyre using that as another reason to on the reason to carry on with the strikes. The problem, in my opinion, i mean, this, but this came debate. Came out in the debate. Mean, could get the i mean, you could get the clips, the government are being completely eared about this. Completely tin eared about this. And to that was and i regret to say that was reflected ministers wife reflected in the ministers wife in order who in to order appease who Dennis Mcshane , let me ask you, who mcshane, let me ask you, who doesit mcshane, let me ask you, who does it who is it good for if we close the Ticket Offices . Bonkers. Dont its bonkers. I dont understand point a understand the point of being a cabinet secretary is to say no permanent secretary. And whatever that was a blob proposal, a Civil Service proposal. I dont even know who the transport secretary is. Mark harper. Well, whoever it is whos got if he walked into this building, i would say 99. 9 of people wouldnt know him anyway i its a low profile is an understatement. Understatement. Well, im glad mark was leaving, but its not about its about profit, surely. Look, i said in the well, look, i said in the debate at the game is not debate right at the game is not worth the candle sometimes you see this in government. See this in government. The Civil Servants come up with a proposal. The rail with a proposal. The Rail Industry backing backing it, industry are backing backing it, at least in part. And you get these benefits. And if youre a minister, you know, you look at this and if you if you apply some political antennae. Yeah. Dennis that you kind dennis will know that you kind of say is this really worth all the pain and the flap were going to take . And i going to take . No. And i honestly this very much honestly and this was very much the the debate, no the tenor of the debate, by no means me, the means was it just me, the absolute tenor of the debate was, if this worth it, do was, if this isnt worth it, do you know also sorry, but do you not rather than just not also rather than just saying, is it worth pain, saying, is it worth the pain, do you also is this right you not also say, is this right for people right . Oh, no, no. Oh, no, no. Well, yes, but dont misunderstand me. But but i think andrews was a sort of a political question. Yeah, it was. You know, its not good for people with disabilities. Its not who to not good for people who have to travel short notice. Oh, travel with short notice. Oh, no. This in the debate. Good. Good. And its not just that. Ill tell example. So recently and its not just that. Ill t and its not just that. Ill t and its not just that. Ill t recently i was getting a train to somewhere to somewhere in norfolk. I went to the machine. I couldnt believe how machine was asking. How much the machine was asking. Well, the ticket well, i went to the Ticket Office victoria. Half price. Office at victoria. Half price. Right. Cheaper. Right. Well, chris much cheaper. Thats to your point. Sweet. Sorry. Chris sweet. Chris sorry. Chris loder, who introduced the debate, worked. Yeah worked for years on the railways. Yeah. So you know, he knows what hes talking he made this talking about. And he made this point which is that point very well, which is that one reasons rail one of the reasons the Rail Companies you onto Companies Want to drive you onto their absolutely or to their website. Absolutely or to use machines is because use ticket machines is because your options may be limited and your options may be limited and you may itll all be in hansard. And he said quite often you get a much better deal. You speak to i mean, profit but profit. So you but you can see why some of the train Companies Want to get rid of the ticket. Of course it is a big tedious thing. Ive read over the weekend. I dont know whether mark will agree treasury agree or not. Is the treasury briefing. Want to kill briefing. They want to kill the triple can think of triple lock. Now, i can think of nothing that will guarantee more labour votes if the tories come up and say to all the pensioners of britain something youve of britain something that youve had, passed by labour, had, introduce passed by labour, the tories just before the election are going to take it away. So youll be poorer next yeah away. So youll be poorer next year. Well theyre briefing hard laboun year. Well theyre briefing hard labour, but labour today wes streeting to say whether streeting refused to say whether labour would keep triple lock. Labour would say nothing. Labour would say nothing. Youve heard of they are. Youve heard of defunding youve they are. Youve heard of defun� of g youve they are. Youve heard of defun� of de banking youve they are. Youve heard of defun� of de banking labour are heard of de banking labour are detargeting , you know, theyre detargeting, you know, theyre so far under the table that they wont commit to anything, will they . They wont. Quite right. Dennis you know when, when hes got his mobile phone on him. I havent tony blair on speed havent got tony blair on speed dial. You may do the dial. Right. You may do the suggestion ian is and i put it to you because youre youre a much better place to comment than am that starmer than i am that starmer is getting a lot of backstairs advice from blair. He talks to him a lot. He is. And the suggestion is that the essence of blairs advice is keep your head below the parapet. Dont commit to anything. Just, you know, kind of wind the know, kind of wind down the clock and let the tories screw everything. Is that true . Is that true . Dennis that so you dont need , tony to say it , need tony blair to say it would be great if harry kane could score goals. I mean, everybody in labours been agreed on that since starmer took over. Had to starmer took over. He had to drain the corbyn momentum poison out of us. The tories were the go into opposition will drain all the liz truss, Boris Johnson whack sort of brexit nonsense. Whack sort of brexit nonsense. Wacko brexit nonsense. How dare you . Brexit nonsense. Mr sunak is doing it now. Hes bought it. We did win the last general election by 80 seats. Dennis you do remember it, dont you . I campaigned in the red wall and and been in and i never and ive been in this encountered such much this time encountered such much anger by voters, labour voters at the impertinence of the labour party , suggesting that labour party, suggesting that somebody like Jeremy Corbyn was a suitable Prime Minister many other good qualities, just like when you put in liz truss. I dennis i hope shes very, very minor historic moment here. France soir agrees with mcshane live on national television. I did some campaigning for personal friends in the red wall in 2019. And what was really interesting and this bears out your point, to be fair, you knocked on a door. Lifelong labour voters , and they lifelong labour voters, and they didnt voting didnt say, im not voting laboun didnt say, im not voting labour. They im not voting labour. They said im not voting for corbyn stroke for him , for corbyn stroke for him, stroke for that bloke. And then there were a whole sort of variations theme variations on a theme by paganini, which got paganini, some of which got quite fruity. But youre absolutely lot of absolutely right in a lot of those it was viscerally those seats it was viscerally anti corbyn. But here is the difference between your man, blair, and your man. Starmer i was a tory candidate in 1997 and the die i was schlepping up and down the back streets of kilburn and green. The dying down the back streets of kilburn and of green. The dying down the back streets of kilburn and of the green. The dying down the back streets of kilburn and of the majorzn. The dying down the back streets of kilburn and of the major government. Years of the major government. So proper so that was a proper apprenticeship by that stage , apprenticeship by that stage, people had bought blair in a big way. You could feel it. They havent bought. Keir starmer absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. I dont i dont particularly disagree. What thats twice now what they , what theyve also what they, what theyve also doneis what they, what theyve also done is theyve sold all their tory shares and sunak is just so weak , wobbly, indifferent, tory shares and sunak is just so weak , wobbly, indifferent , tin weak, wobbly, indifferent, tin eared doesnt get anything right. We know hes a billionaire. His wife is the Richest Woman in the world. Thats. Come on. Whats that got to do with it . Oh, its got everything. Married to a rich woman. Heavens sake , mark well, for heavens sake, mark will remember. Not in 1997 will remember. Maybe not in 1997 because came in in 2001. All because he came in in 2001. All you ever read the daily mail was what woman. And it what a terrible woman. And it was another beginning with was another word beginning with w cherie blair. Now, w used about cherie blair. Now, i think mrs. Sunak seems a very nice person. I know cherie. Shes exceptionally shes an exceptionally nice person. The trouble is, the sunaks are not remotely in touch with anybody in the country and nobody voted for him. Dennis ive never believed in the politics of envy , so i dont the politics of envy, so i dont think its fair to criticise the Prime Minister for the fact that, you know, to use a 19th century phrase, he married well. You know, i dont think its fair to attack him for that. You know, a at on his know, have a go at him on his policies, leave his family know, have a go at him on his poliiwe , leave his family know, have a go at him on his poliiwe , have e his family know, have a go at him on his poliiwe , have a his family know, have a go at him on his poliiwe, have a lookamily know, have a go at him on his poliiwe, have a look go ly and we can have a look go and a lot of his policies. Well, lets lets ask you quickly on triple lock. Are well, lets lets ask you quicgoing triple lock. Are well, lets lets ask you quicgoing to triple lock. Are well, lets lets ask you quicgoing to keep le lock. Are well, lets lets ask you quicgoing to keep it lock. Are well, lets lets ask you quicgoing to keep it lo� are are well, lets lets ask you quicgoing to keep it lo� are you you going to keep it or are you as as i know we as far as as far as i know we are. And you want to for the moment, i think we i think we have to. Because lets face it, yeah, because lets face it, people 60 are people over the age of 60 are the vote tory, if you the ones who vote tory, if you take the triple lock away, its another reason im going to take the triple lock away, its anotifor reason im going to take the triple lock away, its anotifor reastories. Going to take the triple lock away, its anotifor reastories. Well,oing to vote for the tories. Well, thats dennis to thats why dennis is trying to make course make an issue of it. Of course it well lets see if its raised. Thats what my curiosity. I think far important, think thats far more important, frankly, than what ben has. If were starmer, what so if you were starmer, what would today . Would you go on today . You go well what would you go on . Well i would. I would go on. Would. I would just go on. I think offices arent a think Ticket Offices arent a bad one. If somebody had somebody was in there in that 90 minute westminster somebody was in there in that 90 minu� its westminster somebody was in there in that 90 minu� its a westminster somebody was in there in that 90 minu� its a very westminster somebody was in there in that 90 minu� its a very good;tminster somebody was in there in that 90 minu� its a very good indicator hall, its a very good indicator of where mps are. Thats of where mps are. Thats absolutely big cheeses absolutely right. Big cheeses sitting in the ministerial or leader of opposition offices just actually dont know a lot of what happens in parliament. I hope somebody would listen to him on that. Oddly enough, i think mr sunak saying lets rejoin frontex. We have we have done as much as wed love to listen to you, wed rather listen to you, wed rather listen now to the Prime Minister, rishi sunak. Were over house were going over to the house of its prime of commons because its prime discretion him. Rishi discretion time for him. Rishi sunak the house of commons. Sunak and the house of commons. Service mr distinguished service. Mr speaken distinguished service. Mr speaker, with ministerial meetings with ministerial colleagues in colleagues and others in addition duties in this addition to my duties in this house. Have such house. I shall have further such meetings today. Meetings later today. Chris law. Chris law. Chris law. Mr speaker, the wealth of billionaires has skyrocketed over past decade , whilst over the past decade, whilst average working households in the uk the lowest living the uk have the lowest Living Standards since the 1950s was hard. Hardworking families are struggling to make ends meet. The welfare playing by a different set of rules, with reports even that members of the house of lords are trying to exploit the non dom status loophole paying their loophole to avoid paying their fair share. So does the Prime Minister agree that whether youre the wife of the most powerful man in the country or the host of the apprentice, no billionaire should qualify for special tax treatment. While my constituents face