Was an improbable dream. Its hard work and its controversial. Without information there is no freedom and its journalists who provide that information. Window rolls down and this guy says, hey, he goes to 11 00. [laughter]. Marc maron, welcome. How are you . Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Im a little intimidated, i have to say. Really . Well, youre a great interviewer, and for those of us who do this sort of amateur interviewing, you are a professional, man, whether you know it or not. And to watch you or to listen to you do it is really inspiring. Well, thank you. Thats very flattering. I appreciate that. Has it been hard for you to become five and a half years in this program now, 600 episodes. Yeah. I have to believe later episodes you feel more comfortable than your earlier ones, but how has that progression gone for you . I dont know that i feel comfortable, necessarily. I feel more comfortable with myself. Yeah. I think that the first 200 episodes were really thinly veiled attempts at me to get celebrities to help me with my problems. [laughter]. Look, if it works, right . I dont know that thats really what i planned but i think thats what was happening. And i think i dont think i have an interview style and im wary to call myself an interviewer. Thats the weird thing. Like i dont really have questions and sometimes i think they would help. You know what . But let me say this, i think its a conversation. Thats right. Its not an interrogation. I can deal with a conversationalist, a professional conversationalist. Thats good. Well, yeah, but interviews, like ive gotten mail from people who are in journalism and theyre like, you know you break all the rules of journalism but you get this great stuff out of people, and im like, well that you wouldnt get if you went through it in a conventional way. Well, i dont even know what that is. So maybe, you know, this whole idea of convention needs to be rethought. Blown up. Something. What are they . What are they . Do you know them . The conventions . Yeah. Well, its like, you know, preparation, which you told me before you came out here thats it, just preparation . Well, that would be one thing, right, preparation. Not cursing would be another thing. [laughter]. Thats, but, yeah. You are awesome at cursing. Even if you dont think youre awesome at being an interviewer its one of the podcast luxuries is you can just say whatever you want. Yeah, you can say whatever the [bleep] you want. We just lost abilene and amarillo, actually. [laughter]. Look, this is the thing i want to say we lost them a long time ago. Is that what it is . They were already gone. This is kind of a thing now. Celebrities, or people who are not traditional journalists or interviewers, playing this role. Alec baldwin has a podcast. Yeah, that went well, didnt it . Well, its come back, though, actually. And i think hes pretty good. Not the tv program. That did not go well, but heres the thing podcast, like yours, sitting down with other, you know, celebrities or athletes or comedians. Jeff garlin had a podcast for a while. I guess his has kind of come back too. I dont know. You know, jeff has an interesting approach where youd sit and listen and jeff talk. Right. [laughter]. Ive done that show. For that matter, baldwin also, alec baldwin is not exactly silent. Yeah, like i do talk but i dont its very odd to me. Like carolla does that too. Like hell have you on and then you just literally if you do the adam carolla show its you just looking for a window. Where do i jump in. Theres got to be a place here. Im invited into the conversation. And then you jump in and hell be like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then hell go on with his thing. Its a hell of a style. I do think that one of the things about your end of it is we know you better. Now you said the first 200 the t maybe stood for therapy in wtf, right . I dont know if it was therapy. It was conversation. You know, it was the way i have conversations. But youre a character. Youre present in all these interviews. Yeah, well, i mean i dont know how to do it any other way. I got to stay engaged. I think that a lot of my intent is to connect with somebody in a real way. You know, a lot of these people come in to the garage or wherever i do it and i already have a relationship with them right. In my mind. And sometimes its just them fighting against that relationship. Like ive decided who they are. Right. And i will come with those assumptions and then theyll sort of chip away at them. And ill sometimes fight them on it. Im like no, no, youre not really like that. I think youre more like how i think you are yeah. And theres no reason to fight me on it. But see, but you asked about convention. Thats another thing about conventions that you dont follow that i think is admirable and makes this better. You dont pretend not to have a point of view. No. I dont just anybody i like to meet, its like what are you really going to get . Well, charlie rose. Charlie rose is the consummate, sort of down the middle, eventempered. You know but he blathers on too about but i guess the point is charlie rose would never say to henry winkler, when i was a kid i would dress up as the fonz for halloween. He wouldnt . Im not a Leather Jacket no, i dont think he would. I think that actually your interview of henry winkler, which is one of recent ones that you did. Yeah. Your fan boy aspect of it was actually the thing that made it all better to me. Yeah, and hes a sweet guy. Like, he was such a sweet its very interesting, the idea of Arthur Fonzarelli and the fonz. And now, like, hes just henry winkler, this very grateful writes kids books. Old man, in a way. Very sweet. Yeah, its sort of mind blowing. Its kind of rewrite your childhood. But the point is you remember him from a time long ago. Right. And then you meet him in real life and youre like, youre not fonzie. [laughter]. But see, but this is the part that i love. You know, conventional i mean, i pick on charlie rose, but somebody normally wouldnt, sort of, cop to that and have that be the but i dont know what theyre trying to do really then. You know, i watched charlie rose a couple of times and, you know, i havent listened to alec baldwin. And thats another reason why i dont categorize myself, really. Because i dont really listen to that much stuff. Right. And i dont really take in a lot of like, ill listen passively to mpr. I dont listen to other podcasts. I dont compete in that way, like i wonder what charlie rose is up to. Like i dont sit there at home going, oh, so this is the guy. You know, like im not i met him once. You know, hes on the cbs morning show, isnt he . Right. Right, that was hilarious. Those interviews are completely useless where [laughter]. Theyre ridiculous, man. You know, youre on a morning show and theres three hosts or four, and they all have done a little research. You got four and a half minutes. And, like, you know, one guy would go, so this thing youre doing, yeah, thats it. And then the other ones like, and what about . Oh, yeah, thats it. Oh, and then the third one sort of like, but your hair. And like, i know. And then its okay were done. And its over. Thats the end of it, yeah. [laughter]. Crazy. Thats not your show. Why are you doing this as a podcast . Why is this not a radio show . Thats one thing i thought about. I mean, i know podcasts are very much oh, i dont know if youve heard, but radios over. [laughter]. Well, it is. Its overish. But, you know, the thing about a podcast is its not a captive audience. And, you know, at least in some ways its the most captive audience. No. They make a decision to listen. Well, i think that the fact that its selfselecting means that you have to go find people one at a time. Yeah, but once you have them, its pretty captive. You know what i mean . Like, i can get people to sit in their car and not get out of their car, even if its a podcast. Well, thats pretty good. That is pretty good. Well, thats what determines good radio, i dont want to get out of my car because you were still talking. The milk spoiled because i didnt want to leave. Right. Well, i get emails like that, i didnt want to get out of my car and i dont want to write back, like you can pause it. You know what i mean . [laughter]. You want to stay in your car, by all means, theres a reason. Cant pause radio, thats true. Yeah, right. Did you think about this seriously being a Radio Program or a tv program . No. I dont. How did it become a podcast . Well, i had done some radio. Right, air america. Yeah, i have done a bit of radio. Im certainly no radio veteran, but i definitely was comfortable with the medium. Right. And, you know, by the time i started the podcast id gone back a third time to air america for no reason at all other than i was broke, i was in the middle of a divorce. There was a new regime in place and the idiot that fired me twice was gone. And it was really kind of a weird situation. Like, i was in this moneydraining divorce and i was sort of in trouble. I was about to lose my house. And one guy from air america, used to be at air america when i was there in the older days, he calls me up, he goes, theres a new guy with some new money. I think we should take some. [laughter]. Its like robbing a bank, right, yeah. He framed it differently. As a liberal he said, i think its a Good Opportunity for us to fight the good fight. [laughter]. I was like, yeah, id like that fight. If they could give me 50 grand up front to stop this woman from killing me, that would be awesome. It would be awesome, yeah. So i worked that out. So the good liberals, they wrote me a check to stop hemorrhaging the money. And we did it was a streaming video show that i did with sam seder who is the host of the majority report. He still does political talk. And i was so devastated because of my divorce going on. Like, i was emotionally incapacitated. I didnt think i could be funny at all. So i was like, we got to get sam in here. Because not only do i want to not talk or be funny, i dont want to talk about politics, certainly. I need someone in here to watch my back because i might start crying at any moment. Yeah. So, and me and sam, we dont get along that great. Its okay. Its comedic, but its difficult. So were doing this streaming video show in the break room of air america that no one is watching. And were doing it daily. Its called the breakroom, right . Yeah, breakroom live. Right. We could not get any traction with that thing. No one cared about that show. Yeah. And we were putting so much into it and it was just stupid. So but it was funny with me and sam. So after a year of that theyre like, well, we cant afford to do this anymore and im like, okay. But we still had a month on our contract. So being good liberals they were like, well, you know, youre fired, kind of, but you still got a month, so you can keep your office. What world and what radio job has that ever happened . Any job. Yeah, any job. Just hang out, you know. You got a month. Yeah, and were like, all right. So i was thinking, like, well i dont know what were going to do, lets try this podcasting. I talk to my producer, Brendan Mcdonald. Yeah. I said, do you think you can figure out how to post these . I know theres other people doing it. Like if carola can do it and get some interviews, certainly we could do it. This is 2009. Yeah, right. And hes like, all right, lets do it. So we started doing them and posting them and when i moved back to my house in l. A. , which i didnt lose, i set up shop in the garage. And theres no reason for radio. People always ask me, why dont you want to be on sirius . Im, why . The thing is shifting now. We didnt anticipate that. The beginning and as time went on it sort of built. Can you quantify the audience of the podcast now as we sit here five and a half years later . Well, thats the difference between radio and podcast. You dont have to . No, i can do it precisely. Okay. So precisely what is it . For years radio has been spitting these arbitron books, like these weird diaries that are based on what . You know, like, and theyre basing their ad rates on, like, these weird mythical numbers. So whats the number then . Well, i think that most episodes over their life, some more than others, get at least a half a million downloads. Amazing. And each one right out of the gate gets 200,000, 300,000. And they have a long tail because people come back to them much later. The first six months, episodes are available for free for six months. Right. And then they go behind the app pay wall, which is only like 7, 8. Right. Pretty great. So the people you have on are, in some cases, people you know well, and in some cases people you respect but maybe dont know well. Right. I think i know everybody well, though. So its a good place to start. You do . Pretty much. Like people i know well, like comics i have known for 25 years even, its not like we hang out with each other every day. But you know them. Yeah, were kindred spirits. First show you ever did, first podcast, was jeff ross, right . Yeah, that was a phoner. Phoner . Yeah. At the beginning of the podcast, we didnt even know what the form was. There was other people hanging around the studio. My friend matt was there. We were doing phoners. Sometimes i had two guests on a show. Right. It just kind of it was odd. But, yeah, he was the first guest. Right. And i dont remember what but i guess if you roll it forward, i guess more of the point im making is, if you roll it forward are they people with whom you have some kind of relationship . Its not like, you know, oh, hello for the first time, you know, sitting down with them. As is the case with most shows. Sometimes it is. It is . Sure. Yeah, yeah. I mean, a lot of them sort of feel like first dates of sorts. You know, like the conversation is getting to know each other conversation. I have different nerves for different people. Like sometimes i dont know why im talking to somebody. You know, we get offered people. Now, like, we were booking on our own for years and then sometimes we work with a booking agency so then names come up. Like, thats how huey lewis got on. Like, they were like, do you want to talk to huey lewis . Im like, yeah, why not . You know, like everything was huey lewis for a year or so. [laughter]. Like, whats that guy been doing . Yeah, well, you know what, but thats a show. It turned out to be a great show. Thats a show. Yeah, of course it is. But if you look at the people, if you go back as i did before we sat down today and looked back at the list of people youve had on yeah. Its an impressive list of people. And when you think its just a podcast. And i guess thats not fair to say, oh, its just a podcast. But just a couple of years ago, who could have imagined yeah. That would be that those people would come to my garage. Well, for all practical purposes, its a real thing. Yeah, well, no, that shift has happened. It has. At the beginning, you know, people were like coming over and being like, really . Im like, yeah, this is the future of show business. [laughter]. But you know what . It is. Its very its diy. Thats it. I dont know what it is. It just is what it is. You know, i guess its that. Its going to be a mixture of things. Yeah. I dont know why my show got so popular, but it was funny when people used to come over you know, like when Bryan Cranston came over, he was like, you know, i walked him into the back and hes like, really, in here . And im like, yeah. And i said, you know, jon hamm did it. And hes like, oh, yeah, hamm was in here . That somehow solidified it. Paved the way. Yeah. Like i guess its okay if hamm was here. I swear to god i really wanted to talk to walter white. That whole time when cranston was there, like i could not separate them. I have a hard time with actors and i was like, well, how do you make speed . [laughter]. That would be a good show. I dont think he could answer it. But it was good. That was a very nerve racking one because that entire show was shot in albuquerque and, like, i didnt even ask and youre from albuquerque. I know but i didnt even ask him. Yeah. That was one of those times where im like the one connection i could have had. I could have made the connection. That happens a lot. What are the economics of the show . So i know you have a bunch of advertisers. You mention the advertisers on the program. A lot of podcasts have advertisers. Thats called advertising when you mention the advertiser. Well, but its hard to think its hard to do it without mentioning it. It is hard. Because when you think about it very hard and you have to read your mind. Did you guys get that . Stamps. Com. But my point is its hard to imagine that the revenue that comes in from these advertisers cover the bills. Is it . It is, yeah. Because, you know, traditional media have a different economic imperative than these well, lets think about it. Come on. Help me understand this. Okay. So i know for a fact that i get about 300,000 people per episode. So do you think if you present those hard numbers to an advertiser theyre going to be like, okay well give you 5 . Theyre paying you enough . Yeah. I mean, it took time to build that. If youre making this work look, youre talking to a guy that i was nervous about advertising. Like when we had one ad i was like, people are going to leave. Were sellouts. Let me say, youve leaned in. No, i definitely leaned in. Because the truth of the matter is is that, unlike radio, again, you dont like the ads, then dont listen to them. Well, i can always fast forward. Exactly. And the thing is is that i wont advertise anything that is not legit on some level. I used to not advertise things that i couldnt get into myself, but now i do. And we worked with well, i mean like i dont know anything about baseball but, like, if they want to if they want to put the baseball fantasy draft thing. If the fantasy baseball gambling racket wants me to right. Who am i to deny someone their vices . I wont advertise liquor because i dont drink anymore and i cant like theres no way as a recovering alcoholic to go, like, i used to have a real good time with this stuff. [laughter]. You feel free. Im not going to do it. But knock yourself out. I hope it doesnt ruin your life. Enjoy. What i like about it, though, is i like your role as the pitchman. Its almost like i like doing its old style. Its like Hank Kingsley doing garden weasel on larry sanders, right . Kind of. But its also older than that. Its like radio, the old radio in general. Right. Most of radio, when you did terrestrial radio it was driven towards Holding People over those ads. You know, that was, you know, Forward Momentum was all about that. Keep them here, you know, so we can get them to hold on for six minutes of this stuff. Yeah. We dont work with that model. You know, well drop the ads when we want to drop them. Its all us talking. Were not worried about that momentum people are in. Like, i remember one time i was doing an interview with some radio guys. Or, no, it wasnt an interview, someone told me. I dont need to mention them, but bob and tom up in indiana [laughter]. No, but someone was talking to tom, i think and tom was like, these podcasters, they dont know what theyre doing. They dont even reset the guests. Why would we have to . People were listening because of them. Like, the rese